Author Topic: Hellgate: The Second Try  (Read 3363 times)

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TVC15

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Hellgate: The Second Try
« on: November 23, 2007, 06:56:57 AM »
Alright, we all know Hellgate was a disaster out the door. but I decided the game deserved a second chance.  I feel similar to Hellgate as I do Neverwinter Nights 2.  I know some here will disagree, but I think they are both at their core, potentially solid games when taken on their own, with significantly heavy flaws.

If Neverwinter Nights 2 had the hype Hellgate did, it would have been in the exact same position.  The launch situations are pretty much identical. Multiplayer-focused RPGs with a single player component as a bullet point, when there were also people buying the game for this
single player component alone.  The crossover market is huge, bigger than Guild Wars, which is all about PvP and grouping and not so much on soloing.

But I digress.  Hellgate will be spoken about for some time. Let's leave that for another topic. That can, and will be dissected well and good.


Hellgate is. . .still broken!  I reinstalled.  Downloaded several patches, no doubt point releases, and I ran the game.  I created a new Templar, and jumped right into the game world.  I fiddled with settings (I can run it fine maxxed out) and there are tons of glitches and frequent crash bugs, but this one bug really struck me, about how junk the game really is.

Cold, grey, aesthetically unified, the work of the artists exceeding the technology powering the game, I sallied forth against the barbarians, preparerd to fight and die over my love of loot.  And then I got stuck behind a dumpster.  I couldn't move.  I was stuck. Pinned, even. The air sang as my blades tore fleshy zombie brits asunder. I tried to turn, but I was stuck. Stuck! Trapped in the vally of shitty developers!

And that all happened in, I kid you not, less than a minute of actual gametime with Hellgate.  I got stuck.  In a game-breaking, stuck position,  And yes, I tried everything, jumping, sprinting, running, I was stuck there, all directions,  Horrible,  The END OF THE WORLD,  THE END OF FLAGSHIP.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 09:08:33 AM by TVC 15 »
serge

TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2007, 09:29:23 AM »
Oh my fucking god.  How is this getting even passable reviews?  Oh?  Because there are like seven corporate sponsors for the game.

It's fucking terrible.  I just did the first couple of quests TWICE due to follow-up quests not triggering. I FUCKING HATE HELLGATE! It is still basicallly unplayable  I can't believe this shit gets pushed more than The Witcher. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
serge

zeergoth

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2007, 09:33:49 AM »
So glitches aside do you think it could be a fun game?

TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2007, 09:59:14 AM »
It would take an expansion pack to fix this.  Not new monthly content or anything.  The engine is busted, too. It performs poorly and there are frequent hitches.

It would require significant patching to make this work.Like Big big big patches.  This would take a miracle, basically.  This is the gaming equivalent of a premature baby.
serge

Fragamemnon

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2007, 10:18:09 AM »
It would take an expansion pack to fix this.  Not new monthly content or anything.  The engine is busted, too. It performs poorly and there are frequent hitches.

It would require significant patching to make this work.Like Big big big patches.  This would take a miracle, basically.  This is the gaming equivalent of a premature baby.

Or a stillborn. :(

I agree with TVC15. I will try this game again if it is still alive in a year and has gotten a ton of patching-there is a kernel of brilliance in there, under the depths of the bugged code and shitty antiquated Diablo 2 designs.
hex

TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2007, 10:30:34 AM »
Oddly, their level creation algorithms appear to have gotten WORSE not only between beta and retail, but also between Diablo 2 and Hellgate to begin with.

In Diablo 2, yes, you got some dumb levels, but not to the extent of Hellgate. Sometimes, there won't even be a "turn" in the level.  All the rooms will literally be in a row.  Sometimes, you get stuck with a dungeon with no exit!

This game, getting a 70% average is terrible.  Look no further for a condemnation of most reviewers.  See what they gave Hellgate, and you know they are paid for if the score is higher than a 4 or 5.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 10:32:15 AM by TVC 15 »
serge


TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2007, 04:05:43 PM »
So I've played a bit more.  I did some poking around the message board to find out what the story is right now.

The .5 patch came out about 3 days ago.  This was the first major patch, and it is only .5 because I guess they consider it a midpoint between release and the, uh, next patch, which they plan on shipping in December.  I guess they basically wanted to give the (very patient) fanbase something to chew on.  After reading the list of bugs and issues, and what the patch addressed, along with seeing the pitiful number of people playing on servers, I figured I wasn't going to lose much of the experience by playing online.

And I was right, it does run just about as well online as it does off.  Flagship shows their greenness by having some pretty severe loading issues the first time you enter a new station (the game's equivalent to cities), as the models and textures for all the players and their unique equipment are streamed in.  That's the only difference; it's not that terrible, but it might be terrible, even machine crashing, if you don't have as much RAM as I do.

Playing online, I experienced no questing bugs this time.  There was one hard crash about 3 quests in, and it crashed my entire visual service on my PC.  At first I thought maybe my GPU melted, but nope, everything works fine on reboot.  They just forgot to test the game. 

One big negative, in both single and multiplayer, is uneven performance.  To be more specific, it takes like a solid 20 minutes to a half hour of playing before the game runs well.  Before that point, performance is choppy, laggy, slowdowny, glitchy, you name it.  And, well, it remains somewhat stuttery, similar to the same issue in the launch of Half-Life 2, but it evens out.  Overall, the tech still feels like a mess; beta, not final.

If I played this for the first time today without any knowledge, I probably would have figured it was a beta.  Not even a late beta, either.  It's still a major improvement over what they released with, and I am going to try to play it a bit more today.  It's at least better than Guild Wars.
serge

MrAngryFace

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2007, 04:52:20 PM »
I have WoW! ITS ALL I NEED! OMG LEVEL 60 MAGE OMG
o_0

Smooth Groove

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2007, 05:04:08 PM »
Did they improve the graphics for the final game?  The demo looked like a game from 3 yrs ago. 

TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2007, 05:37:43 PM »
Did they improve the graphics for the final game?  The demo looked like a game from 3 yrs ago. 

Ignoring the glitches and heinous clipping, I don't think it's a bad looking game for what it is.  It does look better than the beta and alpha.  There are some nice DX10 effects, mainly DOF and motion blur, but it looks like some of the textures get a good going over.  Some nice shader effects.  I mean, geometry, it's nothing impressive, but the window dressing is nice.  And all the, uh, garbage is well modeled.

The draw distance could be better, though.  It's pretty decent, but for my rig, there's no reason I shouldn't be seeing to the horizons.

Just did another zone.  This was the smoothest one yet.
serge

TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2007, 09:27:43 PM »
I am about to wrap up my second station.  Once I do, probably tonight or tomorrow, I will give my updated, detailed impressions, along with my projections on how good I think the game could end up being within the next sixth months, based on the progress over the past month's patching, developer responses on the forum, and my guesses based off how the community options are set up.
serge

zeergoth

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2007, 09:29:58 PM »
What are the biggest issues that need fixing ASAP?

TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2007, 10:05:11 PM »
The problems are still so common that it is difficult to cite one thing that needs to be fixed off the top of my head. 

In terms of "areas" of the game, they still need lots of bug fixes and a good perf boost.  It's playable now, but it's not near where it should be.  They plugged the bad, bad memory leak, but there are still semi frequent (Once per hour or two) crashes, some of them involving reboots.  There are still lots of clipping issues, but I have a feeling they won't ever be fixed.  There is still a large amount of loading/caching optimization that needs to take place, both in regards to stations and dungeons.

If I ignore all the technical issues and assume that they will be fixed fine, the UI still needs an overall.  Again, a very general complaint; only so general because there are so many elements to the complaint.  The party UI is abysmal.  Communications stuff, like the chat window, are clearly ripped from WoW and Guild Wars, but they lack any of the convenience and usability, and they take up far too much screen real estate.  Friend management is terrible, too.  In general, for a game that is supposed to be multiplayer focused, the options for organizing multi-play are skimpy at best, downright unusable at worst, mainly due to terrible, terrible UI design.  The inventory is a relic of the Diablo 2 days.  It doesn't smart sort--or if it does, it's not a very good one.  The character screen, and most of the UI screens in general, suffer from over design, as if they have been revised a half dozen times, with meaningless arcane icons everywhere, so you never know what you are going to get when you click something.  Tool tips are inconsistent; they aren't everywhere, and they tend NOT to be where they would be most useful.  When dealing with inventory and equipment, and to an extent, skills, there is UI lag between when you click and when the click registers.  Minor, but it makes the game feel floaty.  UI lag is present in all graphics settings configurations; it is not a graphics issue.  The UI is just. that. laggy.

If I could sum it up, the UI, they focused too much on making it look cool, and not enough on making it simple and functional to use.  It's a problem endemic to the entire game:  it's like Flagship thought that the consistent art design of Blizzard's games, along with strict religious following of Diablo 2's design, was the key to making a good game.  Sorry, Flagship, Blizzard's interfaces might be all around slick, but they are above all things functional.  You missed an important part there, maybe the most important part.

There are other issues worth talking about. . .but let me play a bit more.  I have hated on this game so much and I really do want to give it as fair a shot as I possibly can.  It's only fair.  I give everyone their fair shake, no matter how biased I sometimes come across as.
serge

zeergoth

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2007, 10:46:11 PM »
Man, sounds like it should have stayed in development for at least another 3 months.

bork

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2007, 05:50:50 AM »
Man, sounds like it should have stayed in development for at least another 3 months.

Or perhaps another 3 years.   :-\

It's too bad this game has turned out so awful from all the technical problems; now even if they get everything fixed and smoothed over, it's probably too late in the minds of many potential customers. 

Can Flagship recover from this?
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MrAngryFace

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2007, 06:55:44 AM »
They shoulda forced everyone to pay, there's just enough suckers out there that would convince themselves they discovered a gem for it to be profitable.
o_0

TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2007, 03:11:35 PM »
They shoulda forced everyone to pay, there's just enough suckers out there that would convince themselves they discovered a gem for it to be profitable.

One of the big wars on the message board is that the patch gave everyone the ability to make 24 characters, a former pay benefit, so now the people that are paying are uber pissed, and hate the devs and the players playing for free.  Not even a full month in and Flagship has already split and ruined the community.

Also, there are items in the store that are marked SUBSCRIPTION ONLY.  You cannot play the "Free" game without constant reminders that you are a second class citizen.
serge

BlueTsunami

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2007, 03:34:15 PM »
Hopefully "Borderlands" doesn't turn out like this  :-\
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TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2007, 03:54:23 PM »
You know, I may as well give my final skewering now.  I have been playing this game for 5 months, longer than reviewers, longer than gamers.  I may not be at the last boss of the final game, but I've played more than enough to see what's changed and know what's changed in the content I haven't gotten to in final yet.

If tomorrow, Flagship released a patch that fixed all technical flaws, revamped the UI and made it absolutely perfect and beyond criticism, if they made the multiplayer flawless and not confusing, if they even managed to make the pay structure fair and fitting, with premium, quality monthly content, this game would still struggle to earn a 5 out of ten.  You see, the biggest problem with the game, once all the "superficial" flaws are taken off the table. . .is that it is simply not fun to play.

Where to start?  Everyone knows Diablo 2.  Even a short time with Hellgate will tell the educated gamer that Diablo 2 wasn't an inspiration for this game, a starting point.  It was the end point, the goal.  Flagship wasn't thinking about taking Diablo 2, a 7 year old game, and modernizing it.  They were thinking of taking Diablo 2, changing the setting, and rereleasing a very basic copy of it in 3d.  Maybe it's a good thing they kept their ambitions so low, since the game is a failure on every conceivable front.

What's the problem with that, you say?  Diablo 2 is beloved, still played even today, despite it being low resolution and not widescreen.  Ignoring the technical problems, again, Hellgate seems to think a basic copy is good enough, forgetting that part of the reason Diablo 2 is so beloved is that it was the second game in that format that most people have played, and that there is a strong nostalgia factor.  In short, what made Diablo 2 so great in 2000 are things that have either easily been copied and improved upon (the gameplay and loot), or things that can't be readily improved upon (the nostalgia, possibly the inspired setting).  The things Flagship have copied, in short, do not float so well in 2007.  Or at least they don't float for a big budget, blockbuster game.  Even Mythos, Hellgate's cooler little brother, knows that it will never shoot the moon.  It's happiest to be a little cult phenomenon; it knows it will never ber James Dean.

There's more that's beyond patching.  The setting at first sounds like it has good elements.  Post-apocalyptic?  Always cool with the kids.  Knights and magic?  More Diablo 2 leaking in.  Subways and sewers?  They really lend themselves to procedurally generated content, and save texture memory, don't they?  And advertising!  There are posters and billboards all over the serwers, no doubt Flagship got itself some of its many sponsors by singing the praises of potential in-game advertising.  It's so obvious it's sickening; they'd charge you money to advertise to you.  Er, that's not the gameplay problem here.  The gameplay problem comes to the sewers and procedurally generated content. Within a few hours, you have seen every hallway and room type.  We've played Dark Cloud 2, we know how repetetive this stuff gets in 3d.  It floated in Diablo 2, in 2d, but making it in 3 dimensions highlights how repetetive procedurally generated content of today is.  The trash, garbage, dumpsters, monsters, water and steam, and more, is all rendered brilliantly and beautifully, and really, there's a lot of it--it's not like you see the same pile of garbage every room--but even two differently modeled piles of garbage look like garbage to your average non-hobo with the the 1000+ dollar machine required to play this game.  Room types?  Well, there appear to be maybe 2 dozen types total.  And that sounds generous going by my experience.

There are other issues with the envronment.  Some of this can be patched, but looking at MMOs like WoW, I think it's unlikely (WoW was shockingly one of the other key inspirations here, along with Guild Wars).  Clipping is an issue, and even worse, clipping behavior is wildly inconsistent.  If you see a metal guardrail barrier, there's a solid chance you can walk right through it, even if that means falling onto the ground below into a pile of monsters.  It makes no sense.  Any rubble on the ground, you walk right through.  It would not have taken much effort to make the player walk over it.  That one's a little complaint, but that would have taken extremely little effort to implement, and it shits on immersion.  There is a reason for this clipping wackiness.  I said I wouldn't pick on the glitches, but I think this one will not be fixed because it will take some legitimately heavy testing:  clipping is a "feature;" it keeps players from getting stuck in the environment.  What I mentioned before, in my earlier post, is endemic to the entire game.  In less than a day of playing, I got stuck in the environment 3 times, forcing logout in order to play again.

What else?  Flagship would have you believe that they plan on adding NEW CLASSES that will rectify this, but the skill trees are still a joke.  One per class, with maybe a third of the skills being useful.  Since there is no repeccing at this time (I guarantee it will show up as a pay for feature in a few months), you have to make a brand new character if you want to explore the features you didn't get through in your first terrible playthrough.  Fortunately, most of the skills you didn't get to are probably about as exciting as picking between butter and margarine on the morning's english muffin.  But, but the NEW CLASSES you say?  You're going to have to pay to play as them.  So much fun paying a monthly fee to fix the shitty game design decisions of Flagship.  This is not me taking a guess; you will have to pay to fix this flaw.

I guess I should briefly touch on why the gameplay is deficient, too, in comparison to Diablo 2.  The game is bone easy, first of all.  You can't change the difficulty level your first time through, either.  You will NOT DIE while soloing this game.  You will ESPECIALLY NOT DIE if you are playing as a riflemen or anyone that uses a sword as their primary.  Heck, most enemies, even bosses, are generally dead before they even get to attack you.  This is not an "I'm a good gamer" complaint, either.  I'm not.  The game is FUCKING EASY, and you have to play through it at base difficulty before you get to the more difficult levels.  This game, you won't WANT to play through it more than once.  The existing classes aren't very unique.  They have gone to pains to make the classes generally non-traditional, and they have sort of succeeded, but this is exactly why the skill trees suck.  The lack of clear identities means the game designers themselves were sort of at a loss with these classes.  Along the lines of the clipping complaint, hit detection is also laughable.  I mean, it is an RPG and all, but there's a large amount of swinging or shooting, being within 5 feet of something, and still having it register as a hit, in SP and multiplayer.  That's dumb.  We have the technology to make games not like this.

Also, once you stop paying, you lose all pay benefits.  There was discussion of this before, but it is confirmed.  You can't just wait a few months, pay for one month of premium, and get all the good stuff you missed permanently.  You lose all premium content, including items, when you stop paying.  Before the character number increase, when quitting premium, you had to pick your 3 favorite characters when going to free, all others were erased.  Not put on hold; ERASED.

Good elements?  The crafting and enchantment system is really good.  A solid progression from WoW, Diablo 2, and Guild Wars.  Even it's not perfect; you rarely know what sort of benefit you will get in the process of upgrading.  I guess that's part of the fun, but even post-upgrade, unless you remember and write down the myriad of numbers associated with each item, you won't know exactly what benefit you got from the enchantment.  The game doesn't tell you, and since most enchantments are kind of small, not earth shattering things, you are often left guessing how much better the hours and hours of searching for components left your item.

I've gone on for too long here, but I think I have painted a more accurate picture on why Hellgate sucks than any review has.  Tom Chick, I am glad you took the game to task, but you really didn't even try to explain why the game is terrible in its heart.  It's not just the skin that is zombie-rotten here.  This game is a terrible, horrible bomb in every sense of the word, and Flagship can try for months and months to make it better, but most of these complaints are out of scope for a monthly update.  At most, it would take a solid, work on it for a year or more, expansion pack to put this humpty dumpty together, but we know that is not on the books.  It would also have to be a good expansion pack.

So, even if the patches are great, DO NOT BUY THIS GAME.  It is a bomba in every, every sense of the word.
serge

zeergoth

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2007, 04:13:59 PM »
Thanks for the write-up TVC :) it's sad it had to turn out like this, it looked so promising. Do you think the devs just got too ambitious, or too lazy?

BlueTsunami

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2007, 04:14:53 PM »
GamesTM (a UK Game mag) rated Hellgate a 7 and Assassin's Creed a 4 :rofl
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TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2007, 04:16:26 PM »
Thanks for the write-up TVC :) it's sad it had to turn out like this, it looked so promising. Do you think the devs just got too ambitious, or too lazy?

I think they really figured that making Diablo 2 in 3D would be good enough, that they weren't ambitious enough.  I mean, over the years, how many times have you heard people say that they were STILL playing Diablo 2?  I think Flagship heard those people, and basically tried to deliver on it without making any improvements.

I think this is the same reason Blizzard HAS NOT made Diablo 3.  It's a simple formula, but really, where is there to go with it?  WoW was really the most natural evolution of it.
serge

Homemade Milk

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2007, 10:16:03 PM »
wow dude your a noob, the only reason you got stuck is cause your a noob and you tried to jump over a garbage can. noob,

a non noob such as myself has only gotten stuck in hellgate london TWICE in maybe 60 hours of gameplay, i think less, ill go check xfire later, but you are CERTAINLY by WoW standards, pretty noob.

but the game is all and all pretty noob because it is actually really repetitive after a while and only fun if played in large groups such as me and my WoW friends.

I must say they should add some pvp in the game and pvp rewards though.

But you are a noob for even saying the game sucks for getting stuck all the time because it is really actually your fault you got stuck, not the designers, and also theres is an anti stuck button noob, so that fixes that

the game sucks cause its repetitive, not because it has glitches, all games have glitches.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 10:22:10 PM by Homemade Milk »
eri

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2007, 10:18:27 PM »
you're a nub at life, please select (a)bort at the next prompt
duc

Homemade Milk

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2007, 10:21:06 PM »
you're a nub at life, please select (a)bort at the next prompt

lol wow, gg

you know i actually used to  get that a lot from people that told me that exact line after i owned them in 2v2 action a bit and they hapened to be on my server and i give them a whisper saying /w xxxxxx owned. and dude i think that same, like, logic and circumstance applies right here.
eri

zeergoth

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2007, 09:51:15 AM »

TVC15

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Re: Hellgate: The Second Try
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2007, 09:12:47 AM »
wow dude your a noob, the only reason you got stuck is cause your a noob and you tried to jump over a garbage can. noob,

a non noob such as myself has only gotten stuck in hellgate london TWICE in maybe 60 hours of gameplay, i think less, ill go check xfire later, but you are CERTAINLY by WoW standards, pretty noob.

but the game is all and all pretty noob because it is actually really repetitive after a while and only fun if played in large groups such as me and my WoW friends.

I must say they should add some pvp in the game and pvp rewards though.

But you are a noob for even saying the game sucks for getting stuck all the time because it is really actually your fault you got stuck, not the designers, and also theres is an anti stuck button noob, so that fixes that

the game sucks cause its repetitive, not because it has glitches, all games have glitches.

The anti-stuck command doesn't even work all the time.

I'm uninstalling it right now.  The last insult, if you don't have the disk. . .YOU CAN'T UNINSTALL IT!
serge