(Needing) Strategy Guides are bullshit

[disgruntled_jojo]

I frequently troll a few designer blogs, looking for validation to all my crankiness when it comes to bad game design.  I couldn't have said this better myself (link):

Walkthrough? I Don't Need No Steenking Walkthrough!

Principle: If a game requires a strategy guide or walkthrough to complete, it's broken. If the game may be completed without one but nevertheless provokes a not insignificant number of players to consult one, it's just as broken as before.

Rationale: Completing a game should require no external clues. A player's failure to figure out a particular puzzle is actually the designer's failure to provide sufficient clues within the game. The game world is missing essential information; the game is broken.

[Himu]

Or maybe the player just sucks.

[MrAngryFace]

VP2 strategy guide made up a spell that isnt even in the game and told me to use it. Good thing I figured it out myself and got the correct sphere to use in the area or I woulda been there all day.

[demi]

It doesnt specify what type of game... a game like God of War? Or Final Fantasy XII?

[disgruntled_jojo]

It doesnt specify what type of game... a game like God of War? Or Final Fantasy XII?

I believe it's postulating that they are bullshit in all types of games.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

well, I think most designers know this.

the counterpoint is that most games nowadays are designed intentionally "broken" in order to sell more strategy guides.

[demi]

It doesnt specify what type of game... a game like God of War? Or Final Fantasy XII?

I believe it's postulating that they are bullshit in all types of games.

I don't really see that logic for a game like XII, there's a lot of info to keep track of! I mean, it's an RPG, that info is useful. Or Disgaea, or Persona 3. Lots of number crunching games.

When I see a guide for a game like LAIR (which does exist), then he's got something, but they make guides for ANYTHING regardless, I bought Gazunta a copy of the Spyro A New Beginning guide when it came out. A spyro guide? Really?

[Rman]

well, I think most designers know this.

the counterpoint is that most games nowadays are designed intentionally "broken" in order to sell more strategy guides.

I think I read about this somewhere as well.  Look at the recent FF games.  You've got a lot of time on your hands and some luck to find everything in those games without guides. 

Games are expensive enough to spend more money on them beyond the purchase price. 

[recursivelyenumerable]

is this actually true, are developers pressured to put in things that encourage strategy guide sales? 
I always assumed that weird obtuse secrets, etc. were put in to create an aura of mystique around a game, get people talking about it etc.  I mean, for FF9 they didn't even make a strategy guide until six months after the game's release.   

[disgruntled_jojo]

It doesnt specify what type of game... a game like God of War? Or Final Fantasy XII?

I believe it's postulating that they are bullshit in all types of games.

I don't really see that logic for a game like XII, there's a lot of info to keep track of! I mean, it's an RPG, that info is useful. Or Disgaea, or Persona 3. Lots of number crunching games.

There's no reason that the development team couldn't expose that information to you in the game somewhere.  All those numbers could be there.  In fact, we're starting to see more and more RPGs moving towards  you 'building a database' as you play the game that holds all the information about everything you've encountered so far - from plot, to items/equipment, to monsters. 

That said, it's clear that Patel's point is the 'right' one.  These basically still exist for the money that they generate.  Although I love for developers to make more money, I still basically think it's bullshit.  It's like 'hey, my new TV didn't come with a remote, so I can't expose half of it's awesome features.  Oh, but they offer one at the counter for only an additional 20% of the cost of the TV, that's neat'.

[demi]

Some guides are well done though, like the Dragon Quest VIII guide. I look at it more of an accessory.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

is this actually true, are developers pressured to put in things that encourage strategy guide sales? 
I always assumed that weird obtuse secrets, etc. were put in to create an aura of mystique around a game, get people talking about it etc.  I mean, for FF9 they didn't even make a strategy guide until six months after the game's release.   

Final Fantasy 9 also had an online strategy guide which killed the profits for the game, thus the need to publish a guide.

except the guide didn't have any info, it was all

"go to playonline.com and type in this word to get a tip for this boss"

wow, how useful. a guide I can't use in my living room.

[disgruntled_jojo]

Some guides are well done though, like the Dragon Quest VIII guide. I look at it more of an accessory.

I agree with you there - in fact I kind of like some of the strategy guides that are glorified art books.  But the quality of the Strategy Guide isn't really pertinent to the point made in the OP.

[Joe Molotov]

What about puzzles games, and games that are meant to challenging? Are they broken unless they're so easy that any idiot could figure them out?

[disgruntled_jojo]

What about puzzles games, and games that are meant to challenging? Are they broken unless they're so easy that any idiot could figure them out?

No, they are broken if they cannot be solved without information in the strategy guide, though.

Edit: notice the OP use of the word 'clues', not the word 'solutions'.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

is this actually true, are developers pressured to put in things that encourage strategy guide sales? 
I always assumed that weird obtuse secrets, etc. were put in to create an aura of mystique around a game, get people talking about it etc.  I mean, for FF9 they didn't even make a strategy guide until six months after the game's release.   

Final Fantasy 9 also had an online strategy guide which killed the profits for the game, thus the need to publish a guide.

except the guide didn't have any info, it was all

"go to playonline.com and type in this word to get a tip for this boss"

wow, how useful. a guide I can't use in my living room.

I never used the online guide, I just know the fallout from not printing a paper guide was substantial.

right, but...even once they printed a paper guide, the paper guide was like 50% of a guide. all the useful bits was hidden behind their awful flash site. it was like, uh, digital divergence. it's really the nadir for game guides!

[recursivelyenumerable]

Final Fantasy 9 also had an online strategy guide which killed the profits for the game, thus the need to publish a guide.

except the guide didn't have any info, it was all

"go to playonline.com and type in this word to get a tip for this boss"

wow, how useful. a guide I can't use in my living room.

I'm talking about the Japanese release.  In Japan they initially didn't publish any kind of strategy guide which was an order from Sakaguchi.    The online guide didn't come until six months later, and the print version of the online guide didn't come until a year after that.

The US guide was probably the result of some half-assed compromise between Sakaguchi's desire to not have a guide at all and Square's agreements with BradyGames.

[Eel O'Brian]

I bought the Oblivion stategy guide for cheap, there was just so much stuff to keep track of and I didn't want to ride past and miss something cool

[brawndolicious]

I never get a strategy guide unless it was packed in with something.  I've only had the Pokemon Blue/Red guide, SSBM guide, and oddly the Halo 2 guide.  they each included a few easter egg types of things but are basically glorified instruction manuals in how helpful they are.  maybe those games are bad examples but as SP said, some games are designed with the manual in mind.  if you're 10 you probably won't need a manual for anything other than an RPG so for that, it becomes a question of whether basic things in the game require a strategy guide or if you want it for special things the average person doesn't get too very often.

[Himu]

fuck the ff9 guide

GO TO PLAYONLINE FOR MORE INFORMATION

[recursivelyenumerable]

fuck the ff9 guide

GO TO PLAYONLINE FOR MORE INFORMATION

again, the reason they did it that way was because Sakaguchi didn't want there to be a guide at all.  It was a compromise.

[Joe Molotov]

What about puzzles games, and games that are meant to challenging? Are they broken unless they're so easy that any idiot could figure them out?

No, they are broken if they cannot be solved without information in the strategy guide, though.

Edit: notice the OP use of the word 'clues', not the word 'solutions'.

Yeah, but then it says:
"If the game may be completed without one but nevertheless provokes a not insignificant number of players to consult one, it's just as broken as before."

&

"A player's failure to figure out a particular puzzle is actually the designer's failure to provide sufficient clues within the game.

So in other words, if it's too hard for a lot people, then it must be a broken game.

[brawndolicious]

if it's hard in a way that you need a guide.  it won't really help somebody with bad hand-eye coordination that makes him fail.

[Ichirou]

I think I almost bought the FFIX strategy guide, then I flipped through it and saw that for most of the secret stuff you actually had to go online to get it, so I just went straight to the online source.

A lot of FFX's secrets seemed to be purposefully designed in a way that they could only be uncovered via strategy guide use, which ticked me off.  FFX was just a bad game overall, tho.

[Joe Molotov]

A lot of FFX's secrets seemed to be purposefully designed in a way that they could only be uncovered via strategy guide use, which ticked me off.  FFX was just a bad game overall, tho.

Yeah, now that kind of stuff really ticks me off. The Suikoden games are notorious. It's like "Go to Town A, buy an Apple, then go to Town G and talk to the invisible guy behind the item shop, and then find the secret dungeon and beat the boss in under 2:30 in order to get a talking dog to join your party! Oh, and if you don't do it before the end of Disc 1, then you can't get him. And if you don't get all 108 characters, then you can't get the "real" ending."

[Ichirou]

I hate that!  I don't mind missing out on optional stuff as long as it doesn't affect the main storyline/gameplay.

[recursivelyenumerable]

if it's hard in a way that you need a guide.  it won't really help somebody with bad hand-eye coordination that makes him fail.

So if a "not insignificant" number of students look in the back of a math book for the answers, are the exercises flawed?

[Ichirou]

That wouldn't work, in math class you have to show the process by which you reached the answers, not just the answers themselves.  The answers in the back are just there so you can check if you did things the right way.

[brawndolicious]

if it's hard in a way that you need a guide.  it won't really help somebody with bad hand-eye coordination that makes him fail.

So if a "not insignificant" number of students look in the back of a math book for the answers, are the exercises flawed?

well it depends...

games are meant to provide entertainment, you can't make it unfun.  as a general rule, the learning curve should be comparable with other games in the genre.

[CurseoftheGods]

That's why I prefer linear games. I hate referring to GameFaqs. I enjoyed FFX and Super Mario Galaxy for that very reason.

[recursivelyenumerable]

That wouldn't work, in math class you have to show the process by which you reached the answers, not just the answers themselves.  The answers in the back are just there so you can check if you did things the right way.

Solutions in some textbooks (e.g. Knuth's Art of Computer Programming) will include a "process" as well.  In the case of exercises requiring the construction of a proof (i.e. real math) you can't really separate the "process" from the "answer".

[bluemax]

That's why I prefer linear games. I hate referring to GameFaqs. I enjoyed FFX and Super Mario Galaxy for that very reason.

I'm at that point these days. If your game feels complex enough that I need a guide or to keep a spreadsheet or a text file I'm not too inclined to finish it.

[Rman]

I think I almost bought the FFIX strategy guide, then I flipped through it and saw that for most of the secret stuff you actually had to go online to get it, so I just went straight to the online source.

A lot of FFX's secrets seemed to be purposefully designed in a way that they could only be uncovered via strategy guide use, which ticked me off.  FFX was just a bad game overall, tho.

FFX was a big culprit.  Dodging lighting bolts!?  C'mon, Square.

[Eduardo24]

VERSUS Book guides were fucking awesome.

[disgruntled_jojo]

if it's hard in a way that you need a guide.  it won't really help somebody with bad hand-eye coordination that makes him fail.

So if a "not insignificant" number of students look in the back of a math book for the answers, are the exercises flawed?

If they are looking because they book didn't sufficiently explain how to solve them, then yes.

[recursivelyenumerable]

If they are looking because they book didn't sufficiently explain how to solve them, then yes.

But what does that mean?  To some people the only "sufficient explanation" is a step-by-step recipe that can be mindlessly applied.