Author Topic: I just saw Roger and Me.  (Read 3122 times)

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brawndolicious

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I just saw Roger and Me.
« on: October 25, 2006, 07:18:43 PM »
Michael Moore actually had a good head on him once.  Too bad he now makes Farenheit 9/11.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2006, 07:24:32 PM »
Too bad the movie is filled with factual errors and manipulative editing :punch

That's what really pushed me away from the far left. If someone lies it shouldn't matter if they're a democrat or a republican: they should be called out. Yet Moore continues to produce these amatuer dirtjobs filled with errors, and the left embraces him. It makes us look bad
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brawndolicious

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2006, 07:26:18 PM »
Too bad the movie is filled with factual errors and manipulative editing :punch
Roger and me?

Vizzys

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2006, 07:31:00 PM »
AKWARD.
萌え~

Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2006, 07:32:35 PM »
Too bad the movie is filled with factual errors and manipulative editing :punch
Roger and me?

Yeah. It's pretty well documented. I hate using Wiki for anything, but here's a brief synopsis of some of the problems with the movie:

Film critic Pauline Kael criticized the film for exaggerating the social impact of GM's closing of the plant and depicting the actual events of Flint's troubles out of chronological order. One such criticism is that the eviction at the end of the film occurred on a different day from Smith's speech, but the two events were intercut for emotional effect. It should be noted that the viewer is directly informed of this, both during the eviction scene and during Smith's speech and the subsequent attempted interview with him.

GM argues that the reason for its downsizing was fierce competition from Japanese auto manufacturers and that the only alternative to the factory closures in Flint would have been major government subsidies or increased protectionism. Moore briefly touches upon these issues, noting that GM and the factories were profitable when they were moved.

Others criticize that Moore did not follow the correct timeline of events (such as AutoWorld's opening in relation to a plant closing) in order to embellish his documentary. Moore addresses this criticism in the DVD commentary, stating that "there are no dates in the film; we'll be going back and forth throughout the decade of the '80s."

Also, in the film, Moore states that "Ronald Reagan" came to Flint, making no mention if he was President or just a candidate (in 1980, when he visited Flint, he was, in fact, a candidate trying to oust Jimmy Carter). On the Laserdisc and DVD liner notes, the chapter title says "President Reagan visits Flint."
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Flannel Boy

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2006, 07:39:37 PM »
GM keeps making losing money off of the little people.

brawndolicious

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2006, 07:40:58 PM »
GM argues that the reason for its downsizing was fierce competition from Japanese auto manufacturers and that the only alternative to the factory closures in Flint would have been major government subsidies or increased protectionism. Moore briefly touches upon these issues, noting that GM and the factories were profitable when they were moved.
Obviously the labor costs were the major factor but they closed the plant when the company was the largest in the world and making billions in profit and the main point that Moore made was that they were laying people off to force the union to agree for pay cuts so that they could use that money to build new plants.  That's an evil thing.

Also, in the film, Moore states that "Ronald Reagan" came to Flint, making no mention if he was President or just a candidate (in 1980, when he visited Flint, he was, in fact, a candidate trying to oust Jimmy Carter). On the Laserdisc and DVD liner notes, the chapter title says "President Reagan visits Flint."
Not really a big deal because he just rode around with unemployed workers for a few hours.  He wasn't going to change anything but the city's image.
Others criticize that Moore did not follow the correct timeline of events (such as AutoWorld's opening in relation to a plant closing) in order to embellish his documentary. Moore addresses this criticism in the DVD commentary, stating that "there are no dates in the film; we'll be going back and forth throughout the decade of the '80s."
Was Autoworld opened before or after the majority of the workers were layed off?  The plant was still around for a few years I think.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2006, 07:50:19 PM »
GM, like the rest of the Big Three, are bellying up because of poor business decisions, labor costs, and the payment of retired workers. It seems like the auto industry pays more to its former workers than any other industry; my grandparents on my mom's side worked for Ford and Christler, and they're getting paid huge sums of money on a monthly basis. That takes a toll on a company after awhile, and there's nothing greedy about admitting that.

Ford is moving into the same position now, and they're making poor decisions. They kept building trucks and SUVs (which are actually cheaper to produce than their other vehicles), and then BAM $3.25/gallon gas prices pop up. People aren't going to buy trucks or any cars with terrible mileage with gas prices so high, and Ford simply did not anticipate that; poor judgement on their part. Even now with gas so low, their vechicles are still preforming at a mediocre pace.

I live in Michigan, so I see this happening before my eyes. Michigan has always been a manufacturing state, but now the manufacturing jobs are dying or being moved out the country. Is it Ford's fault that people are more interested in buying Japanese cars, and China's cars are right on the horizon? One could argue that the lack of innovation in their car design is a factor, as well as the mindset that foreign cars are of better quality than American ones (which isn't misguided). Labor costs are another issue. When you're paying someone $10 to put a screw in a hole for a few hours...

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brawndolicious

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2006, 08:01:39 PM »
Most people who work there have specialized jobs.  Car sizes/gas prices aren't a new issue.  The movie didn't say anything wrong, it's just that there's no chance that the city's those plants were in will be as well off as they were when people had jobs.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2006, 08:05:13 PM »
Most people who work there have specialized jobs.  Car sizes/gas prices aren't a new issue.  The movie didn't say anything wrong, it's just that there's no chance that the city's those plants were in will be as well off as they were when people had jobs.

The movie is set out of chronological order in order to incite emotional responces. It's the same shit he did in Bowling for Columbine with Charles Heston's speech.

With documentaries, you only see what the director wants you to see. Moore has become the king of doing this, and he deserves to be called out for being a hypocrit wanna be muckracker.
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brawndolicious

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2006, 08:08:29 PM »
The movie is set out of chronological order in order to incite emotional responces. It's the same shit he did in Bowling for Columbine with Charles Heston's speech.
With documentaries, you only see what the director wants you to see. Moore has become the king of doing this, and he deserves to be called out for being a hypocrit wanna be muckracker.
Where was the order of the movie too manipulative??

Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2006, 08:13:06 PM »
The movie is set out of chronological order in order to incite emotional responces. It's the same shit he did in Bowling for Columbine with Charles Heston's speech.
With documentaries, you only see what the director wants you to see. Moore has become the king of doing this, and he deserves to be called out for being a hypocrit wanna be muckracker.
Where was the order of the movie too manipulative??

During all the scenes about the impact of the plant's closing.

Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? He does this in most of his movies (except F911)
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brawndolicious

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2006, 08:16:17 PM »
Where was the order of the movie too manipulative??
During all the scenes about the impact of the plant's closing.
Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? He does this in most of his movies (except F911)
What was manipulative?  At all those scenes he had an interview where the person being interviewed expresses their view.  There is not any part I can think of that he could have manipulated.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2006, 08:19:59 PM »
Where was the order of the movie too manipulative??
During all the scenes about the impact of the plant's closing.
Have you seen Bowling for Columbine? He does this in most of his movies (except F911)
What was manipulative?  At all those scenes he had an interview where the person being interviewed expresses their view.  There is not any part I can think of that he could have manipulated.

That's because Moore shot it as such. He makes it look like the film follows a series of events in a linear, abcd... format, but in reality it's chopped up to suit his agenda, which is a cardinal sin for documentaries

I haven't seen the movie in a long time, but I just can't stand Moore anymore. I lost all respect for him after seeing Bill O'Reilly bitchslap him
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brawndolicious

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2006, 08:26:13 PM »
That's because Moore shot it as such. He makes it look like the film follows a series of events in a linear, abcd... format, but in reality it's chopped up to suit his agenda, which is a cardinal sin for documentaries
I haven't seen the movie in a long time, but I just can't stand Moore anymore. I lost all respect for him after seeing Bill O'Reilly bitchslap him
okay, but I'm pretty sure he didn't manipulate anything.  If you can prove any obvious lies I would interested.

The Fake Shemp

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2006, 08:28:13 PM »
Michael Moore is a douche.  I'm not a fan of the NRA, nor do I care for Heston's crazy theatrics, but he was a complete asshole when he came to visit Heston.  And it wasn't like it was a public platform to air grievances - it was the dude's home.  What a fucking asshole.
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Ecrofirt

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2006, 08:29:56 PM »
Moore makes movies for the money he needs to fuel his hot dog filled man-orgies.
8=D

Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2006, 08:31:08 PM »
That's because Moore shot it as such. He makes it look like the film follows a series of events in a linear, abcd... format, but in reality it's chopped up to suit his agenda, which is a cardinal sin for documentaries
I haven't seen the movie in a long time, but I just can't stand Moore anymore. I lost all respect for him after seeing Bill O'Reilly bitchslap him
okay, but I'm pretty sure he didn't manipulate anything.  If you can prove any obvious lies I would interested.

Moore is interesting because he doesn't blatantly "lie". Instead, he takes issues and muddies them up, switching things around to make things too complicated. With Heston he made it look like he came to Colombine and made a pro-gun speech right after the shooting.  :lol
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The Fake Shemp

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2006, 08:32:43 PM »
Team America summed up my feelings about Michael Moore best.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2006, 08:34:57 PM »
Michael Moore is a douche.  I'm not a fan of the NRA, nor do I care for Heston's crazy theatrics, but he was a complete asshole when he came to visit Heston.  And it wasn't like it was a public platform to air grievances - it was the dude's home.  What a fucking asshole.

That part is pretty hard to watch. I'm certainly no fan of NRA or Heston, but come on. But what's more disgusting is what happens before he goes to his house. The part where he edits it to look like Heston came to Colombine after the shooting
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Cheebs

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2006, 08:54:57 PM »
As a Michigan resident I say the big three are complete idiots and deserve losing to other car companies.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2006, 08:57:47 PM »
As a Michigan resident I say the big three are complete idiots and deserve losing to other car companies.

It's good to know you have Michigan's best interest in mind
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brawndolicious

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2006, 09:00:06 PM »
Moore is interesting because he doesn't blatantly "lie". Instead, he takes issues and muddies them up, switching things around to make things too complicated. With Heston he made it look like he came to Colombine and made a pro-gun speech right after the shooting.  :lol
obviuosly he tries to accomplish his agenda but I was interested in what he does other then put a bad light on the people he disagrees with.

Cheebs

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2006, 09:00:44 PM »
I have no loyalty to Michigan dearest.

I was born in Texas in 86, lived there 3 months
moved to Ohio from 86-96
Atlanta, Georgia from 96-98
Michigan from 98-?

 :-*

Why should I support failing car companies? It sounds too much like system fanboyism to me but with cars.


oh btw, my dad's side of the family is from MI. It just so happens my grandpa worked at ford his entire working career.

OH SNAP!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2006, 09:03:54 PM by Cheebs »

ToxicAdam

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2006, 10:01:37 PM »
My father is a 30 yr employee at Jeep (Chrysler).



There is alot of blame to go around for the woes of the auto industry. What is key, is to remember that the Big 3 forgot to make quality products in the 80's. This caused Japanese companies to get a "foot in the door" and they have been eating away at marketshare ever since.


Secondly, as these companies were transitioning to more efficient, less expensive methods of car making (to compete with the Japanese), they made workers take concessions. Not concessions of their existing contracts .. but concessions from the FUTURE worker in an Auto Plant. So, now you have an entire generation of worker that is making HUGE money at the expense of the consumer and the current auto industry new hire.


Peep the benefits for my father
--- ---

5 weeks paid vacation
Paid holidays (EVERY national holiday)
28.00 dollars an hour, usually 8 hours overtime a week
Paid day off on his birthday
Full medical/dental
His retirement pension will be in the range of 2000-3000 a month
Inverse layoffs. Twice a year he gets laid off for 1 or 2 weeks and they pay him 80% of his usual pay. Completely optional.


He's a forklift operator.

FlaviusG

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2006, 10:05:14 PM »
He makes accusations based on the fact that he can't walk into the headquarters of Ford, looking like a bloated homeless man, and demand to speak with the CEO without an appointment.

Then he makes fun of a woman for raising rabbits for food.  Eating rabbits may be wierd to some of us, but whats the big deal?  How is that much different than raising anything else for food?


Moore is a liar and and asshole, he does a good job of making liberals look worse than they already are, and I'm ok with that.

brawndolicious

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2006, 10:10:57 PM »
He makes accusations based on the fact that he can't walk into the headquarters of Ford, looking like a bloated homeless man, and demand to speak with the CEO without an appointment.
Then he makes fun of a woman for raising rabbits for food.  Eating rabbits may be wierd to some of us, but whats the big deal?  How is that much different than raising anything else for food?
Moore is a liar and and asshole, he does a good job of making liberals look worse than they already are, and I'm ok with that.
He said that he made numerous appointments with calls and letters but for the past year "they were under advisory".  He told them that he was doing a documentary on the plant shut downs in Flint and that's why they didn't let him in the first time he tried to take a television crew to the 14th floor to interview.

The rabbits part was only to show that adult male rabbits try to castrate each other when they fight or something but it does show that this woman's (who's on welfare) only income is from breeding rabbits in a home.

Michael Moore wasn't being much of an asshole in this movie.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: I just saw Roger and Me.
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2006, 10:20:11 PM »
My father is a 30 yr employee at Jeep (Chrysler).



There is alot of blame to go around for the woes of the auto industry. What is key, is to remember that the Big 3 forgot to make quality products in the 80's. This caused Japanese companies to get a "foot in the door" and they have been eating away at marketshare ever since.


Secondly, as these companies were transitioning to more efficient, less expensive methods of car making (to compete with the Japanese), they made workers take concessions. Not concessions of their existing contracts .. but concessions from the FUTURE worker in an Auto Plant. So, now you have an entire generation of worker that is making HUGE money at the expense of the consumer and the current auto industry new hire.


Peep the benefits for my father
--- ---

5 weeks paid vacation
Paid holidays (EVERY national holiday)
28.00 dollars an hour, usually 8 hours overtime a week
Paid day off on his birthday
Full medical/dental
His retirement pension will be in the range of 2000-3000 a month
Inverse layoffs. Twice a year he gets laid off for 1 or 2 weeks and they pay him 80% of his usual pay. Completely optional.


He's a forklift operator.


Exactly. This is something foreign auto companies don't have to deal with, and it really shows how handicapped we are. How can they compete when they're forced to pay people $15-25/hour to do menial jobs, while at the same time shelling out hundreds of thousands of dollars to workers who retires decades ago?
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