I'm about to finish The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire

[TVC15]

It has taken me like 2 months to slog through.  I have enjoyed it greatly, though. 

You don't have to reach very far to compare the Fall of the Roman Empire to the Fall of the US.  Gibbon pretty soundly claims that hiring 3rd parties to defend the empire (aka THE HALIBURTONS or the MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX) combined with the slothfullness and base turpitude of the ruling class (aka us) led to the Hired Defenders being able to topple the empire themselves.  And hey, that's also exactly what Eisenhower warned us about in his exit speech.  I guess that old dirty bastard was familiar with Gibbon himself.  Unsurprisingly, the military-industrial complex does get what it wants in our culture.  It wants wars--broken windows that need fixin--and the response from the rulers is "Exactly how many do you want?"  From the useless, ethically empty military actions of the 80s, to the first gulf war, to Clinton's pointless strikes in eastern europe (and Iraq).  The US isn't so much the World Police as it is an Excuse for the War Industry to Get Money.

Anyway, the US being a morally bereft shithole aside, anyone got any recommendations on further history books?  I'm aware that there probably isn't anything with the scope of Gibbon, but it would certainly be nice.  I was thinking of maybe a history of the papacy, since there's clearly a lot of fucked up shit going on there.

Any suggestions?  BTW, youa ssholes should read Gibbon instead of the fucking bible.  Not only is it much more interesting, it is also factual.  And relevant, since history has a vaguely cyclical tendency (no I am not advocating eternal recurrence).

[Phoenix Dark]

Unlike Rome, America is god's country 

[The Fake Shemp]

Yeah, Jesus doesn't like feggits - that's why Rome fell.

[Madrun Badrun]

What version are you reading whiteman?  I really want to read this but every time I try and look for it its always abridged.  I also want it as a hardcover. 


As for other historical epics that I haven't read.

    
The History of England by Thomas Macaulay

The Rise of the West  by William McNeill
    
A Study of History by Toynbee

[Eel O'Brian]

The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich by William L. Shirer.  It's really dry in parts, and some sections go on forever, but there's a lot of interesting material there if you're willing to slog for a while.  It's the literary equivalent of eating a crab - you have to crack and pick through the shell, but there's meat inside.

[TVC15]

What version are you reading whiteman?  I really want to read this but every time I try and look for it its always abridged.  I also want it as a hardcover. 

Just go with the abridged,  It's 1200 pages of pretty dense writing (the full version is about 3x as long).  The text is rather representative of when it was written, so you will find yourself reading 6 line sentences multiple times to figure out what's going on.  And since the book covers over 1000 years of history, I am sure the full version has more than a few lulls.

Also, the chapter on Christianity is pretty awesome, and representative of the church's behaviour up until the Renaissance, and probably similar to how the church would like to act today if it were still relevant.

Also, the Roman Empire didn't fall until after the state had officially adopted Christianity, so if anything, Jesus BROKE the empire.

[CajoleJuice]

Also, the Roman Empire didn't fall until after the state had officially adopted Christianity, so if anything, Jesus BROKE the empire.

That's because his empire isn't on Earth, duh.

[TVC15]

Also, the Roman Empire didn't fall until after the state had officially adopted Christianity, so if anything, Jesus BROKE the empire.

That's because his empire isn't on Earth, duh.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

his empire is inside caligula

The book doesn't really cover Caligula; it starts with the Antonines.  I guess Caligula was still the Good Ol' Days of Rome.

[close]

[CajoleJuice]

Also, the Roman Empire didn't fall until after the state had officially adopted Christianity, so if anything, Jesus BROKE the empire.

That's because his empire isn't on Earth, duh.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

his empire is inside caligula

The book doesn't really cover Caligula; it starts with the Antonines.  I guess Caligula was still the Good Ol' Days of Rome.

[close]

So I'm guessing this book covers mostly the remains after the fall of Rome, a.k.a. the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire?

[TVC15]

Also, the Roman Empire didn't fall until after the state had officially adopted Christianity, so if anything, Jesus BROKE the empire.

That's because his empire isn't on Earth, duh.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

his empire is inside caligula

The book doesn't really cover Caligula; it starts with the Antonines.  I guess Caligula was still the Good Ol' Days of Rome.

[close]

So I'm guessing this book covers mostly the remains after the fall of Rome, a.k.a. the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire?

It starts about 100 years after Caligula, so you get like the last 300ish years of the Western Roman Empire, and then it covers the Byzantine Empire.  Since historical info from that period is somewhat sparse (thanks church!), it also acts a decent guide to known medieval history.  You get an overview of the behaviour of the Saracens and the crusades.  But really, more than half of the book is those first 300 years, the fall of the OG Empire.

[CajoleJuice]

Hmm, ok. Sounds pretty awesome. Did you read the abridged or full version?

Edit: Nevermind

[TVC15]

Hmm, ok. Sounds pretty awesome. Did you read the abridged or full version?

Edit: Nevermind

I really wouldn't be opposed to reading the full version, but 3500-4000 pages of 18th century writing would take me a while.  It's very beautiful writing--something that can't often be said of a historian--but it is work to read.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

This weekend is gonna be a Very Caligula Weekend

Also I like this book:

[The Fake Shemp]

1492 is where the action is...

[TVC15]

New revelations of the americas before columbus?  That sounds like MORMON BULLSHIT, MORMIE!

You should bring a lady over to watch Caligula with, btw.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

You should bring a lady over to watch Caligula with, btw.

I have a movie date at my apartment with a fine young filly just next week. Perhaps I should save the Caligula until then!

[TVC15]

Make sure you tell her it is your favorite movie, and mouth the words Malcolm McDowell is saying in every scene.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

I already know all his lines from visiting you last month

[TVC15]

I already know all his lines from visiting you last month

In all seriousness, watch it ALONE unless you like awkward silences.

My wife is now smitten with the young Mr. McDowell.

He made some fuck awesome movies early on in his career.  I have no idea what happened

[cubicle47b]

My viewing of Caligula left my roommates a little horrified.  I'd like to see the reactions of Patel's date.

[TVC15]

Maybe I should read The Twelve Caesars by Suetonius next.  That'd get me my Caligula fix.  I don't think the book is looked at as a beacon of historical accuracy, though being written during the Roman Empire, it is at least an interesting record of then-current perception.

[TVC15]

I already know all his lines from visiting you last month

In all seriousness, watch it ALONE unless you like awkward silences.

My wife is now smitten with the young Mr. McDowell.

He made some fuck awesome movies early on in his career.  I have no idea what happened

As far as I know Caligula made him a bi of an outcast upon its release and he had to settle for some less than choice roles.

I dunno. . .he made his US movie debut only AFTER Caligula came out.  His last good year was 82, with Britainnia Hospital and Cat People.  Don't forget that Caligula, though infamous, was a huge financial success (well, not in the box office, but on video), and that McDowell's role in it MADE the movie.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I made the mistake of reading the Unabridged version.  I figured, "Hey, I love history and I want to read the details."  I got through the second volume but had no urge to get the next.

I read The Twelve Caesars but it left me wanting.  Not anywhere close to enough detail for my tastes.  To be honest, with those guys, I have no idea why the Roman Empire lasted as long as it did.

[TVC15]

Would you say The Twelve Caesars is worthwhile, or is there a better, similar book?

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Would you say The Twelve Caesars is worthwhile, or is there a better, similar book?

I haven't found a better book.  It is just that I want more detail when it comes to insane leaders.  So I'm just nitpicking but The Twelve Caesars is a great read.  Just not entirely enough detail for my tastes.

[Eel O'Brian]

Time After Time 

[TVC15]

From what I've read though, it was kind of customary in Rome to destroy records of the real nutter emperors, hence the lack of real info on Caligula and Nero.

[Eel O'Brian]

From what I've read though, it was kind of customary in Rome to destroy records of the real nutter emperors, hence the lack of real info on Caligula and Nero.

There's evidence that Caligula's nuttery might be more than a little exaggerated

[TVC15]

Man, looking at the dates for Nero, he was 17 when he became Emperor.  OF COURSE a 17 year old is going to be an asshole if you make him king.  Imagine if The Dark Shake got to be (Burger) King.  It was probably similar to that.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

if I were 17 and made emperor you could not IMAGINE the number of whores I would keep on retainer

[Eel O'Brian]

if i were made emperor at age 17 the entire female populace of rome would have born my dick tracks

[TVC15]

If demi was made Emperor at age 17, he would be the first JUGGALO EMPEROR.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

From what I've read though, it was kind of customary in Rome to destroy records of the real nutter emperors, hence the lack of real info on Caligula and Nero.

There's evidence that Caligula's nuttery might be more than a little exaggerated

That is a good point.  I'm reading TTC for Caligula and I highly doubt that his daughter, Julia Drusilla, was extremely violent at infant age as a result of being the daughter of Caligula.

[TVC15]

According to Wiki TTC is the main source for info on Caligula, as all others have been destroyed.  The article also points out that some of the more extreme behaviour (rampant homosexuality, incest, proclamations of godhood) were actually relatively common in Rome.  And things like appointing his horse to the Senate could just have been a bit of social satire, especially since Caligula hated the Senate (maybe it was like "You fucks are all so dumb that my horse could do your job").

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I can only imagine what a juggalo America would be like. 

Faygo would be nationalized?

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

According to Wiki TTC is the main source for info on Caligula, as all others have been destroyed.  The article also points out that some of the more extreme behaviour (rampant homosexuality, incest, proclamations of godhood) were actually relatively common in Rome.  And things like appointing his horse to the Senate could just have been a bit of social satire, especially since Caligula hated the Senate (maybe it was like "You fucks are all so dumb that my horse could do your job").

That is true.

Since the main information comes from one guy, there is biases, and we will probably never know how Caligula actually ruled.  Although nothing really struck me as absolutely outrageous; it just seems standard fare for absolute dictators or near absolute dictatorships.  Most of the behavior of Caligula is found in recent dictatorships like Kim Jong-il, Mao, and Stalin.  Kim might actually be worse.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

REX JUGGALUM

[TVC15]

According to Wiki TTC is the main source for info on Caligula, as all others have been destroyed.  The article also points out that some of the more extreme behaviour (rampant homosexuality, incest, proclamations of godhood) were actually relatively common in Rome.  And things like appointing his horse to the Senate could just have been a bit of social satire, especially since Caligula hated the Senate (maybe it was like "You fucks are all so dumb that my horse could do your job").

That is true.

Since the main information comes from one guy, there is biases, and we will probably never know how Caligula actually ruled.  Although nothing really struck me as absolutely outrageous; it just seems standard fare for absolute dictators or near absolute dictatorships.  Most of the behavior of Caligula is found in recent dictatorships like Kim Jong-il, Mao, and Stalin.  Kim might actually be worse.

There's also the whole thing about the common people of Rome prospering during Caligula's rule.  It's probably similar to today:  A leader only ever cares about the rich or the common people.  Caligula apparently cared more about making things good for the commoners, while giving the Senate and the ruling class lots of shit.

And I mean, it seems like ALL Roman Emperors had some sort of physical/mental deformity, so Caligula probably did have epilepsy or schizophrenia or something, and he likely could have mistaken it for some sort of divine communication.  Who knows.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

sounds like we've met the Internet's foremost Caligula apologist

or as I like to call them, "Capoligulasts"

[TVC15]

There is an awesome capolingus scene in Caligula.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

worst neologism ever

I'll neo you until you logism!

[CajoleJuice]

worst neologism ever

smh

[Howard Alan Treesong]

There is an awesome capolingus scene in Caligula.

Caligula capolingus apologists = Calpolingulasts

[TVC15]

There is an awesome capolingus scene in Caligula.

Caligula capolingus apologists = Calpolingulasts

He has a capoling plan.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

He was sound neither of body nor mind. As a boy he was troubled with the falling sickness, and while in his youth he had some endurance, yet at times because of sudden faintness he was hardly able to walk, to stand up, to collect his thoughts, or to hold up his head. He himself realised his mental infirmity, and thought at times of going into retirement and clearing his brain. It is thought that his wife Caesonia gave him a drug intended for a love potion, which however had the effect of driving him mad. He was especially tormented with sleeplessness; for he never rested more than three hours at night, and even for that length of time he did not sleep quietly, but was terrified by strange apparitions, once for example dreaming that the spirit of the Ocean talked with him. Therefore weary of lying in bed wide awake during the greater part of the night, he would now sit upon his couch, and now wander through the long colonnades, crying out from time to time for daylight and longing for its coming.

From TTC

So he definitely had some kind of disorder

[TVC15]

He was especially tormented with sleeplessness; for he never rested more than three hours at night, and even for that length of time he did not sleep quietly, but was terrified by strange apparitions, once for example dreaming that the spirit of the Ocean talked with him.

I think I might be the reincarnation of Caligula.  Replce "spirit of the Ocean" with either "Orson Welles" or "Humphrey Bogart" and that IS ME.

[Madrun Badrun]

I bet Caligula dreampt of making out with his mom too.

[TVC15]

Well he did marry his sister.

[Madrun Badrun]

Whiteman if you had a sister would you be tempted?

[TVC15]

Whiteman if you had a sister would you be tempted?

Why, I don't know, Arby.  If you had a sister that wore a cravat, would you be tempted?

[Madrun Badrun]

What if I wore her cravats.