Author Topic: Superhero comics are shit  (Read 8136 times)

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Howard Alan Treesong

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Superhero comics are shit
« on: May 04, 2008, 10:48:33 PM »
I just read Mark Millar's Wanted on the recommendation of a friend. Mark Millar is just a foul-mouthed hack who likes to take old genre standbys and update them with anal rape. It's unfortunate that this was recommended to me by a friend, because now our friendship is in doubt.

I also read some Astro City. What's the big deal? It's good, sure, but nothing that Alan Moore hasn't done better - twice - once in his criminally underrated Supreme run, and to lesser effect with Tom Strong. If I never suffer through another chintzy Wonder Woman analogue again, it will be too soon.

In conclusion, superhero comics suck and I'm going back to the surreal French sci-fi.
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Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2008, 10:53:05 PM »
Moore's Supreme is so good because he embraces the truth that, at heart, all superhero comics are just silly stories about dudes and chicks in their underwear punching each other
sup

Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2008, 10:58:53 PM »
I've never read a comic in my life.  I've wanted to start, but it seems like there is just so much out there that it's impossible to catch up or keep up.  I have no idea where to start, so I never do :(
Pick up Batman: Year One. There are plenty of great self-contained graphic novels, but I think this would be a good starting point.
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duckman2000

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2008, 11:00:07 PM »
I'll pick up the odd comic book at the local comic book store (found WE3 that way), but they are rarely super-hero comics. The one exception might be Daredevil.

My project manager is a big comic book dork though. So in the interest of conversation I've caught up with a few super-hero sagas, and god damn is it ridiculous these days. Hulk, in particular, has turned blatantly distinguished mentally-challenged.

Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2008, 11:00:42 PM »
FA, find some good, finite miniseries collected into trade paperback form, that way you have a single story with a beginning, middle, and end, and you don't have to worry about keeping up with a bunch of bullshit decades-long continuity which ultimately has no meaning to anyone except middle-aged manbabies
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TVC15

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2008, 11:01:37 PM »
Has Alan Moore said what he's going to do next?  He's been quiet since Lost Girls.

I would let Alan Moore shove a snake in my ass and then worship it.
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Joe Molotov

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2008, 11:07:33 PM »
FA, you should read Conan, manliest of all comics. There's five trade paperback volumes of the new Dark Horse series out, and they're awesome.
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TVC15

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2008, 11:09:54 PM »
FA, you should read Conan, manliest of all comics. There's five trade paperback volumes of the new Dark Horse series out, and they're awesome.

Don't listen to this cigarillo, FA.  He's just trying to get into your  pants with homo hypermasculine bullshit.  This is what real men read:

serge

drew

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2008, 11:10:55 PM »
Of course they are, everyone knows that.

Peter Bagge :bow

Joe Molotov

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2008, 11:12:58 PM »
FA, you should read Conan, manliest of all comics. There's five trade paperback volumes of the new Dark Horse series out, and they're awesome.

Don't listen to this cigarillo, FA.  He's just trying to get into your  pants with homo hypermasculine bullshit.  This is what real men read:

(Image removed from quote.)

Hmmm...interesting, but allow me to make a counterpoint...

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Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2008, 11:13:14 PM »
FA, I can make some good, non-manchild recommendations, if you let me know the style/vibe you're looking for. I will even restrain myself from going JUST READ GRANT MORRISON'S ANIMAL MAN

Although, if you want a good "superhero" comic without too much baggage, Morrison's NEW X-MEN run is pretty fucktastically awesome
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Enl

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2008, 11:15:27 PM »
If you hate superheroes than you should check out Garth Ennis's The Boys. It's a highly anti-superhero comic about a secret group whose goal is to take down superhero organizations. It's even got Simon Pegg as one of the main characters.

mmm

Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2008, 11:22:29 PM »
Although, if you want a good "superhero" comic without too much baggage, Morrison's NEW X-MEN run is pretty fucktastically awesome

It is good

also, Peter Bagge signed and drew a Buddy head sketch in my ratty bargain-book copy of "The Buddy Chronicles" at the Charlotte Heroes Con in 2006 - there was no one else around, so I talked with him for a good twenty minutes, cool guy
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2008, 11:23:27 PM »
I just read Mark Millar's Wanted on the recommendation of a friend.

man.  don't toss out all capes because your friend has horrible taste. 
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Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2008, 11:23:50 PM »
If you hate superheroes than you should check out Garth Ennis's The Boys. It's a highly anti-superhero comic about a secret group whose goal is to take down superhero organizations. It's even got Simon Pegg as one of the main characters.

(Image removed from quote.)

THIS IS WHAT'S WRONG WITH AMERICAN COMICS

"If you hate superheroes, then you should check out [this comic about] a group whose goal is to take down superhero organizations."

LISTEN TO YOURSELF. YOUR BOOK HAS SUPERHEROES IN IT. IT'S NOT FOR PEOPLE WHO HATE SUPERHEROES.

Wanted was pitched to me as an awesome comic about a world where power and immorality run rampant as evil men control everything. Instead, I got terrible DC fanfic. Ditching the superhero elements is the best move the movie made this summer.

Common pitches:
"It's a hard-boiled crime drama - with superheroes!" (Powers)
"It's like Sex and the City - with superheroes!" (She-Hulk)
"It's got superheroes, sure, only it's dark and gritty! Nay, realistic!" (practically every fucking comic of the past 10 years)
Superheroes, superheroes, superheroes!

FUCK YO SUPERHEROES

If you want to read an AWESOME, underrated (but still mainstream) comic with NO superheroes, read Jock and Diggle's The Losers
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2008, 11:25:20 PM »
the boys is lame

most of the stuff millar does is lame.

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TVC15

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2008, 11:28:12 PM »
Patel, I'm just looking for something cool to read in downtime between work/school or spare time at home.  I'm totally a clean slate and may check out the new X-men and see where I go from there.

Just get the first volume of Sandman.   Or the Invisibles.
serge

Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2008, 11:29:16 PM »
Sandman or Invisibles - can't go wrong with either.

Morrison's New X-Men run is great. Let me know if you need trade titles (or torrent links).
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Grecco

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2008, 11:29:30 PM »
The Fact that The Authority exists means that Superhero comics are very much not shit

Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2008, 11:33:00 PM »
from the capes r' gud category.

Shazam!  The Denny O'Neil relaunch in the 70s, now collected in one inexpensive black and white volume.  It takes the concept of being a superhero at age 12 and then just runs with it.  most of the volume sounds like he was cribbing stories from listening to children playing. 

X-Force (and to a lesser extent X-Statix).  Goddamn awesome.  it's a study on fame culture, reality television (back before it was the nightmare it became, so it's a bit ahead of its time), and what celebrity does to outsiders who are now very much a part of the mainstream.  Matt Faction would cover some of the same territory in The Order.

The New Frontier - Darwyn Cooke breaks down the DC Universe to it's most basic silver age stories and then casts the beginnings of the justice league as an epic tale starting with DC's WW2 stories and ending with the formation of the JLA.  There's a lot of fanboy in here, but it's of a kind you don't really see.  The tone is wonderful and is nearly the polar opposite of the other DC Nostalgia Wankfest that is Geoff Johns' JSA.


If someone suggests "kingdom come" "marvels" or anything Alex Ross even looked at, you need to kill that person where they stand.  not a jury in the world will convict you.
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Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2008, 11:35:01 PM »
god, how is Kingdom Come venerated

fanwank tracery

Cooke's Spirit is fantastic. His Batman vs. The Spirit one-shot is also awesome.

first 12 issues of the Authority (Ellis' run) are pretty much as good as the "modern" superhero run gets.

there's good cape stuff out there, sure. but so much cape SHIT is held up as canonical (like The Long Halloween - wtf?)
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #21 on: May 04, 2008, 11:35:33 PM »
Sandman or Invisibles - can't go wrong with either.

Morrison's New X-Men run is great. Let me know if you need trade titles (or torrent links).

if you've NEVER read comics before, don't start with the Invisibles.  It may be out of your league.  It does a lot of weird stuff with structure and story-telling and the first volume is kind of rough.  He picks it up greatly when they get to America.  Starting there may do you a bit better.  Then you can go back

Hell, if you've NEVER read comics before, why not a volume of Tintin or Asterix?
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #22 on: May 04, 2008, 11:36:00 PM »
god, how is Kingdom Come venerated

fanwank tracery

alex cunting ross
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Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #23 on: May 04, 2008, 11:36:43 PM »
Mark Millar used to write Superman Adventures, and it was the best Superman comic out at the time, but yeah he's terrible nowadays

did anyone read about that fummeti-styled Marvel superhero comic set in 1985 Millar had planned, but was cancelled?  It sounded like the most wretched ego masturbation ever

All-Star Superman is pretty good, as far as new superhero stuff goes
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #24 on: May 04, 2008, 11:38:43 PM »
All-Star Superman is pretty goddamn amazing every time it comes out.

Also, I would like to suggest the new Blue Beetle.  It's a hispanic teenager who is infected (or 'blessed') with an ancient alien artifact which gives him powers.  It's really the setting and the supporting characters which make this series.  I can't wait for them to start collecting this in good hardcovers.
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Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2008, 11:40:43 PM »
As a fan of Captain Marvel, I disagree with Shazam!  Even CC Beck (co-creator of Captain Marvel) hated it, and he was drawing it

you'd be better off seeking out a collection of actual 1940s Captain Marvel stories

Cooke's Spirit was okay, but again, get the real thing by Eisner instead as it's readily available
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2008, 11:42:47 PM »
i couldn't get into cooke's spirit at all.

the originals are good, but i dunno.  I just prefer the 70s stuff.

we're totally leaving out Jack Cole's Plastic Man stuff. 
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Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2008, 11:44:17 PM »
yeah, you can get Cole's Plastic man in Archives editions, but I don't know if a new reader would be willing to spend $30-50 on a hardcover
sup

Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #28 on: May 04, 2008, 11:46:29 PM »
the thing is that, a lot of public libraries actually get those archive editions.  when i was living in richmond it's how i was reading the spirit.  so check your libraries.

Tonya

Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #29 on: May 04, 2008, 11:47:52 PM »
ha, forgot about that, good advice

although the libraries here are kind of lame when it comes to comics stuff
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Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #30 on: May 04, 2008, 11:48:34 PM »
All-Star Superman is pretty goddamn amazing every time it comes out.

Also, I would like to suggest the new Blue Beetle.  It's a hispanic teenager who is infected (or 'blessed') with an ancient alien artifact which gives him powers.  It's really the setting and the supporting characters which make this series.  I can't wait for them to start collecting this in good hardcovers.

did you read the latest, entirely Spanish issue? so awesome
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2008, 11:53:40 PM »
no.  haven't made it to a shop.  am poor.

oh, did you ever check out that fall of cthulhu stuff?  I can't believe how awesome that series is.

Also The Luna Brothers The Girls and The Sword are EXCELLENT reads.

real talk. No Hero.

Tonya

Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2008, 11:54:00 PM »
is the new booster gold series any good?

i loved the old justice league in the 80s, and the ted kord beetle has turned into a regular sidekick in BG from what i read, so does it have that "flavor" to it?
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Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #33 on: May 04, 2008, 11:54:33 PM »
also get the Jimmy Corrigan collection
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Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2008, 11:55:14 PM »
the new Booster Gold is fuck awesome
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2008, 11:56:02 PM »
it actually does.  i was surprised.  the issue with the booster series is that he's traveling through time to stop people from messing up the DCU.

so it's all flashback (remember this?!?!?!?!?!) fan wankery, something DC excels in lately. 

but it's well written beyond that.  I like both the original series and I like booster here too.  I really don't like him in the JLI issues.
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Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2008, 11:58:32 PM »
booster gold isn't riddled with new dc "everything crosses over into everything else and you can't understand a fucking thing unless you buy them all" bullshit?

that's why i quit reading most dc comics a few years ago, too expensive, and it's the same old bullshit over and over

and over

fuck dan didio and geoff johns
sup

Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2008, 12:00:17 AM »
speaking of fun fan wankery, though, wasn't there a new ambush bug recently?
sup

Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2008, 12:00:59 AM »
erm, kind of.  but not really.

but kind of

it spins out of 52, and again it's visiting all of the most memorable bits of recent (past 20 years) of DC history (including zero hour.  ZERO HOUR)  but the interactions, the dialog and the zip bang makes up for it.
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Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2008, 12:01:45 AM »
a flashback?! next thing you'll be telling me there's interstital text describing the scene
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2008, 12:01:58 AM »
Nuh-uh fagurt, Batman the Long Halloween :bow
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2008, 12:02:25 AM »
speaking of fun fan wankery, though, wasn't there a new ambush bug recently?

After being championed by DC Coordinating Editor Jann Jones, a new Ambush Bug miniseries, "Ambush Bug: Year None," will debut in 2008, plotted & pencilled by Giffen and written by Fleming, with Jones herself serving as editor.

not yet it seems.  I can't believe they made The Blue Devil an actual Blue Devil.  It's like DC just did all kinds of stupid shit to their fun 80s characters
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2008, 12:05:30 AM »
a flashback?! next thing you'll be telling me there's interstital text describing the scene

the whole series is flash back fan wankery.

THE

WHOLE

SERIES

it's still excellent and really really well done, but IT IS ALL FLASHBACK FAN WANKERY.
Tonya

Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2008, 12:06:39 AM »
okay, it's time to post this song

http://www.mediafire.com/?xjm1sbxnn4c
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Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2008, 12:08:25 AM »
It's like DC just did all kinds of stupid shit to their fun 80s characters

they sure as hell seemed to take a great delight in mutilating the entire giffen league during all this "____ crisis" stuff

i read somewhere a while back that didio doesn't like humor books
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2008, 12:12:00 AM »
okay, it's time to post this song

http://www.mediafire.com/?xjm1sbxnn4c


i can't imagine what sort of person would read both wizard and CBG.

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DODOO DO DO DO DO DO DOOO!

Eric P is now a level 12 Nerd.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #46 on: May 05, 2008, 12:13:45 AM »
you forgot

minus 4 cha
duc

Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #47 on: May 05, 2008, 12:15:33 AM »
you forgot

minus 4 cha
now i'll never have followers!

wait that was 2nd ed rules.

what's the 3.5 spec?
Tonya

Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #48 on: May 05, 2008, 12:16:21 AM »
I would really like to see, and I hope Final Crisis is actually this, an Editorial Crisis

where the DC universe denizens realize their entire continuity is being reset, like, on the yearly at this point

and try to find a way to stop it

the problem is, they're not "resets". they're additional accrued layers of shellac and history. the Crises are making the DC universe more complicated, not less
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Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2008, 12:20:42 AM »
i couldn't even make it through the first crisis trade

godawful

i couldn't believe it was wolfman and perez

Tonya

Eel O'Brian

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2008, 12:32:08 AM »
the first crisis is just an awful comic all around

the thing is, i think they were "fixing" something back in the 80s that, to me, didn't need to be fixed

i've been reading comics off and on since i was around six years old, and i never, not once, found the concept of multiple earths hard to grasp

mostly because in the days of newsstand distribution there used to be footnotes and asides in the captions to catch you up to speed on things you might have missed, a practice that seems to be regarded as taboo nowadays - also because, for the most part, they tended to keep the "earths" separate and distinct

say what you want about jim shooter, but he once said that creators should always keep in mind that every comic has the potential to be someone's first comic, and they should always strive to make every issue as accessible as possible

if, back in 1985, they really thought the multiple earths concept was intimidating to new readers, and had become too convoluted, then they should have just stopped using it instead of trying to "fix" it with a story ten times as incomprehensible and convoluted - it was a concept that was destined for failure, because they've been trying to explain all the "fixes" for decades, and every explanation just muddies the water further
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Mandark

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2008, 01:00:35 AM »
Was Tom Strong the one with the supergenius who does super things and raises a family and stuff?  Cause that was boooooring.

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2008, 01:34:44 AM »
John Holbo has a great essay on continuity cruft 'n' stuff.
Quote from: Crisis on Infantile Earths - or - If it's Tuesday, it must be Ragnarok!
Before trying to get more specific about 'myth', let's get a bit more specific about the structural and literary hazards of bricolesqe storytelling. Timothy Burke posted a fine essaylet several months ago, "Powers and the Comic Book Human". It really expresses very well exactly what exasperates Moore:

    The problem with the standard superhero comics is the problem that all serial melodrama has. The longer your characters go on, particularly if you’re not allowing them to age, the more that the accumulation of contradictory events in their lives and within their worlds creates a kind of toxic layer of underlying sludge that turns the characters and their surrounding mythos into a kind of fever-dream patchwork unreality.

There are actually a couple semi-distinct problems here. Let us be a bit pedantic and distinguish them. First, sheer volume of ever-accreting eventage will eventually get embarrassing. Even ordinary human characters having ordinary 'adventures' can only have so many, reason teaches. (Will Rex Morgan, M.D. never take a permanent vacation?) Second, difficulties maintaining consistency are proportional to total volume of eventage, which increases exponentially (cubically?).

And, by the by, the reason something like DC's "Crisis On Infinite Earths" is doomed to be aesthetically unsatisfying and actually rather dull (in my opinion) is that it's flagrant cosmic kludge in response to two patently mundane problems. (1) There's too much stuff, and (2) it's all messed up. As the wikipedia definition puts it: "a kludge is never elegant or admirable, except ironically." Pretending a kludge can support so much top-heavy 'If this be Ragnarok' eschatonnage is an attitude best maintained ironically, since literature should make a point of being in some way admirable, or at least self-aware of its limitations. (The alpha and omega of DC's 'crisis' was marketing. Decades of marketing strained the fabric of the universe; this had to be mended for the sake of future marketing. If only it could have been a titanic clash between the Marketer and the Anti-Marketer, with the villainous Anti-Marketer finally defeated by twelve of the mightiest heroes from all the earths - that would at least have been honest.)

you guys should really read the whole thing (if you haven't seen this already).
QED

bengraven

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2008, 09:08:04 PM »
I agree.  If it's not black and white, I don't read it anymore.

The only good superhero books of the last ten years were Grant Morrison's X-men run and his Marvelboy series.

Eric P

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Re: Superhero comics are shit
« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2008, 09:11:37 PM »
I agree.  If it's not black and white, I don't read it anymore.


well that's just silly.

Quote
The only good superhero books of the last ten years were Grant Morrison's X-men run and his Marvelboy series.

If you discount Paul Grist's Jack Staff and a whole slew of others.
Tonya