Gamershell: MGS4 has 4.6 GB required install

[brawndolicious]

Well, it's still the budget version of the PS3. That the PS3 in itself was horrendously overpriced is a different matter.

yeah, but you can still see how it would be wrong if most major games on PS3 required installing, it just gets annoying..  OTOH, most of the early adopters who got the 20 GB probably got it for Bluray mainly.  I don't think anybody expected installs to become this popular on PS3.

[Raban]

duckman, please just give up, you're really bad at this. I looked at this thread from the beginning of this argument, and you don't seem to be saying much else in every single one of your fucking replies except

"I don't give a shit what your examples are, we don't know what the cache is for blah blah blah"

Just stop. I can't believe I was falling for your bullshit THIS long.

Except there is no "bullshit" about that. You went into some knee-jerk panic there, and it makes absolutely no fucking sense to do so right now. Unless the company is a lot less competent than I've been lead to believe. But then some of you guys are claiming that the game itself looks to be below par in most ways, so whatever. What a riot.

It doesn't make sense for you to repeat the same shit over and over again like your brain is overheated from all the semen you keep snorting every time you suck six dicks stacked like bricks in a row.

So basically, you've got nothing? I suppose that's the EB version of that.

Please tell me you're joking. I just post around 5 essays of shit backing my side of this argument, and your only argument is "We don't know what the cache is for". Don't tell me I've got nothing. Read my fucking posts again, shithead, you're the one with nothing. I give up, you senseless idiot.

[cool breeze]

See, I don't know. So I'm not going to treat it like a DMC4 situation when quite a few capable developers have managed to avoid falling in that hole. This is developed specifically for the PS3, and it's my understanding that Kojima Productions is comprised of quite a few clever people. Naughty Dog managed to do pretty awesome things with only a brief cache install that felt more like an extra long load screen, which resulted in a complete streamlined and good looking game with no freaking load screens anyway. Is Naughty Dog really that much more accomplished than Kojima Productions? If they are not, it's hard to buy that the company wouldn't do something useful with the cache install. So yeah, guesswork, but it's about brilliant of a base as assuming right off the bat that it will be a useless install simply because 3rd party cross platform games have done less than amazing things with that HDD.

On that note, I'm defending fucking Kojima Productions, the developer of a franchise that I really, really do not like. Which is insane. God damn it.

Well, Uncharted is a very Linear game and MGS4 seems like it is going to somewhat open.  I don't think all games can be like Uncharted or God of War where the saves could be masked so easily.

[Van Cruncheon]

i wonder why mgs4 shares issues with cross-platform games, he wonders aloud

[Phoenix Dark]

let's say you have a 60gb unit. let's say 50% of all games you buy have a 2-6gb install, 3.5 on average. if i buy 30 games -- and i have over 120 for the ps2 -- i have 3.5 x 15 = 52.5gb worth of installs, leaving very little room for demo/game downloads, game caches, and the occasional oddball game that wants to write a massive save. this is bullshit.

my pc has 500gb space. my pc also has convenient uninstall and backup features, and a defrag option.

lol looks like they spent way too much time cramming space on the disks and not the fucking HD. smh x 123.4GB

[Phoenix Dark]

on 20 disks though lol

Six disks

[duckman2000]

I got the 20GB PS3 because I'm a cheapskate. It's pretty much full after 3 installs. I had RR7 and FFXI installed and I had to remove RR7 when I bought HSG5. Still, not interested in MGS4 since I haven't played 2-3 anyway, but I'm pretty against the whole installation thing, esp. when all you get is normal/respectable loadtimes as a result. Half the time, the installations are just making up for BD deficits.

Yet some developers have somehow managed to work around these supposed deficiencies. I don't buy that argument at this point. Is Kojima beneath Naughty Dog on the scale here? Why are people expecting Kojima Productions to underperform? I understand that they are different games, but then that argument should probably be considered when you talk about what other developers have used the HDD for, vs what MGS4 is. Which is why I'm asking about load times and persistent game worlds. I'd assume that load times even for large areas would be negligible. Maybe that's an unreasonable expectation, but I'm not under the impression that this is a hack studio.

huh? you're going to have to break this down - i've frankly no idea what you are trying to say here.
Again, we've strayed. Even if it turns out that whatever funky feature it is , the install issue STILL reamins.

But if the install is actually proven to really benefit the game experience, then how does it warrant so much criticism? If it's a minor deal like DMC4, then sure, it's odd. But if it actually shows good usage of that HDD, is that worth the storage space it takes? Going into a bend over game patches, sure. But HDD usage doesn't actually have to be just a horrible waste of storage.

[ferrarimanf355]

I plan on getting the biggest HDD for my PS3 when my rebate check comes in from the gov. The biggest notebook drive is 320 GB, right? Or is there something larger?

[duckman2000]

you keep mentioning the griping, but you seem to fail to see that even if it the cache does do something great, it still means that the same fundamental issue is there. we could stop griping , and of course you could kill the contrary stance that it's some amazing use of a cache too.

I would, but it's going to take a while to dismount this high horse. 

[trippingmartian]

"Team Kojima, yo ass used to be beautiful."

[Raban]

I plan on getting the biggest HDD for my PS3 when my rebate check comes in from the gov. The biggest notebook drive is 320 GB, right? Or is there something larger?

are you talking about the Economic Stimulus package? Don't be distinguished mentally-challenged, that's your tax money from next year. Save it.

[MCD]

*insert long post here*

[duckman2000]

But if the install is actually proven to really benefit the game experience, then how does it warrant so much criticism? If it's a minor deal like DMC4, then sure, it's odd. But if it actually shows good usage of that HDD, is that worth the storage space it takes? Going into a bend over game patches, sure. But HDD usage doesn't actually have to be just a horrible waste of storage.

well, basically we are at an impasse - i hope it is an amazing use of the cache, but we'll just have to wait and see as no one will know.

Then again, as i keep saying, -mandatory- installs are still a problem for stock users and the fact this uses it well just makes it easier to swallow the usage. It doesn't fix the need to upgrade a -console-.

Fair enough

[duckman2000]

I'm not interested in defending MGS4, I just think that people might be underestimating Kojima Productions by assuming that it will be another DMC4-level effort. But we'll see, I'll try and practice what I preach for a change and shut up about it until we know more.

[Ninja]

I'm not interested in defending MGS4, I just think that people might be underestimating Kojima Productions by assuming that it will be another DMC4-level effort. But we'll see, I'll try and practice what I preach for a change and shut up about it until we know more.

just out of interest, have you played/seen MGO?

i know it shouldn't be taken as an indication of what is coming in the full game, but yeah... it's not great.

I think the Middle Eastern map looks good and that one is based on the single-player moreso than the others.

KojiPro are not the type to take a lazy route, if they want to force an install, I'm inclined to think that they believe it's for the best. We'll see.

[AdmiralViscen]

No, the hopefuls among us might, but the reasonable response to it is probably to save the griping for when it's obvious that it's actually something worth griping about. HDD caching doesn't have to be a generally useless thing, even if other developers have used it for less than amazing things. I don't know exactly how MGS4 is designed, but you guys may know more. What have the previews said about things like load times between areas, and persistent features? And yeah, I am dragging Naughty Dog in to this as the design of its game seems to argue against that for example Blu Ray here creates an even for very good developers insurmountable obstacle that requires a good deal of caching to make up for its weakness. And if there isn't an issue that is insurmountable to quality developers, why would it be assumed that Kojima Productions' usage of the HDD would be on the level of cross platform games?

And what if people are more mad about having 8 HDD-installing games per 8 months and not SPECIFICALLY about what this game is doing or not doing with it? How can this escape you?

I don't care what it's doing, the fact is that the PS3 is fuck-annoying and it only gets worse if you bought the budget (aka logical) version or if it's your primary console and you want all the latest releases.

There's a lot for a rational person to be irked about even before getting involved in this fairy tale debate about how MGS4 maybe could be redefining caching for the 21st century.

I got the 20GB PS3 because I'm a cheapskate. It's pretty much full after 3 installs. I had RR7 and FFXI installed and I had to remove RR7 when I bought HSG5. Still, not interested in MGS4 since I haven't played 2-3 anyway, but I'm pretty against the whole installation thing, esp. when all you get is normal/respectable loadtimes as a result. Half the time, the installations are just making up for BD deficits.

Bam.

AA seems to think this is GAF and he's responding to hollow fanboy talking points, when most people in this thread HAVE PS3s and are expressing THEIR OWN GRIEVANCES.

[Raban]

I got the 20GB PS3 because I'm a cheapskate. It's pretty much full after 3 installs. I had RR7 and FFXI installed and I had to remove RR7 when I bought HSG5. Still, not interested in MGS4 since I haven't played 2-3 anyway, but I'm pretty against the whole installation thing, esp. when all you get is normal/respectable loadtimes as a result. Half the time, the installations are just making up for BD deficits.

Bam.

AA seems to think this is GAF and he's responding to hollow fanboy talking points, when most people in this thread HAVE PS3s and are expressing THEIR OWN GRIEVANCES.

Seriously, I had a PS3 for a long time, I fucking loved it but in the end it just wasn't for me.

I wanted to kill myself during the DMC4 install. It didn't take the same amount of time to install as it did to make a sandwich. I left the house to go shopping and came back and it was still installing.

[Mupepe]

this thread is all sorts of sad


usual suspects trolling and usual suspects defending.  yay?  i think not :'(

[duckman2000]

I'm not interested in defending MGS4, I just think that people might be underestimating Kojima Productions by assuming that it will be another DMC4-level effort. But we'll see, I'll try and practice what I preach for a change and shut up about it until we know more.

just out of interest, have you played/seen MGO?

i know it shouldn't be taken as an indication of what is coming in the full game, but yeah... it's not great.

I played three rounds of the beta, thought it was crap. But as you say, I'm not taking this as an indication of what MGS4 will be like; for one, I don't trust Japanese developers with online anything. I don't know what they are going for with MGO, but the beta felt half-assed in every way, including visuals. And I've seen enough of MGS4 to know that it's a cut above MGO. Of course, MGO also indicates that the MGS gameplay hasn't become any more exciting as of late, but that's a different matter.

AA seems to think this is GAF and he's responding to hollow fanboy talking points, when most people in this thread HAVE PS3s and are expressing THEIR OWN GRIEVANCES.

Not really. I've been mostly responding the comments about this being a fucked up and unnecessary install of the DMC4 sort, when that's not even known yet. And I'm still not buying that it's just there to make up for supposed deficit, not when I've seen what other accomplished developers have managed to do. I understand that it sucks that you're running out of space and have to pick and chose, but then I still think that complaining about a lack of space when you went for the cheapest version of the system is a bit of a stretch. Especially when it's as easy to upgrade as it is.

[duckman2000]

Double post

[dark1x]

I found it odd that the original poster mentioned his interest in the Wii which actually has more serious storage issues at this point (in a slightly different way).  At least the PS3 offers faster IO and actual solutions to address the storage complaints while Wii users are completely stuck.

I'll go one further - i'll not die of shock if the 4 gig install is the entire game, with the BR simply providing media play back for cut scenes. The install cache will have nothing to do with the media played back, and that's the only area i'd expect the X360 to be compromised. The size of the game and the quality of the game itself wouldn't be touched.

Hell, need more space? compress the sound and video and stick it on two disks.

Why do you continue to insist that the game uses any sort of pre-recorded video?  The game relies almost 100% on realtime 3D cutscenes.  Audio data would indeed require some space, but it wouldn't be unreasonably big.  It is highly unlikely that the entire game fits within 4gb, I'd say.  You can't "comrpess" realtime 3D cutscenes and audio compression wouldn't buy a lot of space.

[Kyle]

  dark1x, mgs4 has last gen graphics, bad texture work, and its 1024x768, 30 fps, and it requires 4GB installsandwich, what does it have to do with Wii issues?

[duckman2000]

mgs4 has last gen graphics

And I'm the one getting shit in this thread? Get the fuck out of here.

[MedievalManIII]

At least MGS4 doesn't have bloom and sparks and whatever everywhere so you can't see whats going on.

[Kyle]

mgs4 has last gen graphics

And I'm the one getting shit in this thread? Get the fuck out of here.

I call it what I see it

[dark1x]

dark1x, mgs4 has last gen graphics, bad texture work, and its 1024x768, 30 fps, and it requires 4GB installsandwich, what does it have to do with Wii issues?

The original poster stated...

I am however looking at the Wii lately, it seems to have enough games to make it worthy of a purchase(bloom Blox pushed me over the edge).

I just found it odd that a thread designed to slam the PS3 for its storage issues would mention the Wii (which has more severe issues at this point).  The Wii has nothing to do with this issue, but I found it funny that it was mentioned when you consider what people are complaining about in this thread.

[Pharmacy]

mgs4 is a really nice looking game in motion, screens dont do it justice at all

[Mupepe]

mgs4 is a really nice looking game in motion, screens dont do it justice at all

f'real real

[dark1x]

Can you really imgaine what it takes to fill 50 GBs? It takes huge-ass numbers of textures, not 3D data for movement, cutscenes or shaders. Even mocap takes little space next to a the textures on the object that is mocapped.

I honestly have no idea what it is that requires so much space.  It's just that DC has suggested several times that the game uses pre-rendered HD videos which is not true.

Of course, Japanese developers seem to have a real issue with space.  I still have no idea why Lost Odyssey shipped on 4 discs.  There are VERY few CG cutscenes, a limited amount of voice acting (much much less than something like Xenosaga, for instance), and fairly limited areas to explore.  There was no logical reason for its high space requirements, but there it was, four discs.  I'd assume MGS4 is similar.

[Rman]

Too much trolling.  I know there's a lot of 360 fans here but, man, it gets annoying sometimes.  MGS4 does not look like a last gen game at all.

[hyp]

i still don't get why on earth anyone would defend mandatory installs. 

on that note, i was actually one of the 20gb owners that had to upgrade their shit because i filled up my hard drive.  12+ PSN games and a few mandatory installs was all that it took.  sony's going to have a clusterfuck to deal with on their support lines when the casuals start filling up their hdds with this mandatory garbage.

[MCD]

Can you really imgaine what it takes to fill 50 GBs? It takes huge-ass numbers of textures, not 3D data for movement, cutscenes or shaders. Even mocap takes little space next to a the textures on the object that is mocapped.

I honestly have no idea what it is that requires so much space.  It's just that DC has suggested several times that the game uses pre-rendered HD videos which is not true.

Of course, Japanese developers seem to have a real issue with space.  I still have no idea why Lost Odyssey shipped on 4 discs.  There are VERY few CG cutscenes, a limited amount of voice acting (much much less than something like Xenosaga, for instance), and fairly limited areas to explore.  There was no logical reason for its high space requirements, but there it was, four discs.  I'd assume MGS4 is similar.

disc 3 and 4 were filled with a lot of fmvs, short fmvs but still....

[Mupepe]

Maybe MGS4 is like 400 hours long, asswipes

[dark1x]

I also don't know why exactly does it need that much. I guess we will all know after the game ships and people actualy beat it. This isn't a sandbox type of game, you don't need to have much redundant data in order for the streaming to go well.

Well, Sandbox games typically have lesser storage requirements due to the re-usage of data throughout the world.  Oblivion is a great example of this as its textures and meshes are re-used throughout the entire game.  A lengthy single player adventure with a large number of unique environments requires much more data.  MGS4 does seem to include a huge variety of environments and the space requirements can vary depending on how they were created and stored.

disc 3 and 4 were filled with a lot of fmvs, short fmvs but still....

Not really.  A limited number of FMVs and they were all short as you say.

[Sho Nuff]

It leaves me asking, if there's 4.7gb of cache on the HDD, what's coming off the blu-ray aside from audio

[duckman2000]

It leaves me asking, if there's 4.7gb of cache on the HDD, what's coming off the blu-ray aside from audio

The original assets for all areas in the game? It all depends on what that cache is, doesn't it? It could just contain assets to aid in streaming data (the Blu Ray deficiency argument is popular here, so it seems as if that's the preferred view right now), or it could be used to for example track persistent data throughout the game. That's the whole point, that people are already assuming that it's going to be the least admirable effort and therefore a sour trade for precious storage space.

[MCD]

there is at least 12 fucking fmvs in disc 3, and no i don't think fmvs are the reason for using 4 discs more like shitty japanese developers.

[dark1x]

there is at least 12 fucking fmvs in disc 3, and no i don't think fmvs are the reason for using 4 discs more like shitty japanese developers.

I don't remember that many, but regardless, they were all so short that there isn't any point in arguing about it.

My point is, every game is going to have different storage requirements and sometimes it is the result of poor data management.  The PC versions of various UE3 games, for instance, require loads of space.  Turok requires ~14gb, Blacksite and Stranglehold over 10gb, and Gears of War just shy of it.  Why the hell would something like Turok require THAT much space (more than double that of the 360 version which reads entirely from a slower DVD)?  The MGS4 situation may be rather similar.

[Kyle]

there is at least 12 fucking fmvs in disc 3, and no i don't think fmvs are the reason for using 4 discs more like shitty japanese developers.

I don't remember that many, but regardless, they were all so short that there isn't any point in arguing about it.

My point is, every game is going to have different storage requirements and sometimes it is the result of poor data management.  The PC versions of various UE3 games, for instance, require loads of space.  Turok requires ~14gb, Blacksite and Stranglehold over 10gb, and Gears of War just shy of it.  Why the hell would something like Turok require THAT much space (more than double that of the 360 version which reads entirely from a slower DVD)?  The MGS4 situation may be rather similar.

isn't that because PC games have different set of textures packed in the game? so you could choose from Low to High Texture quality? and  maybe other things. 

since Borys is here, he can explain that to us. 

[dark1x]

Not in those cases.  There's no reason I can see for something like Turok to more than double in size when it uses such a limited selection of textures in the first place.

[duckman2000]

Having seen Turok for PC, I'm not convinced it even shipped with a genuine high quality texture package.

[hyp]

it didn't ship with gameplay either.  turok

[duckman2000]

For real. I saw some initial praise for the game on NeoGAF, and I couldn't relate, at all. It even had this bug annoying view bob that I hadn't seen in a "big" FPS since the late 90s.

[dark1x]

Having seen Turok for PC, I'm not convinced it even shipped with a genuine high quality texture package.

Most console to PC ports do not ship with a set of textures higher resolution than what was found in the original game.

[hyp]

For real. I saw some initial praise for the game on NeoGAF, and I couldn't relate, at all. It even had this bug annoying view bob that I hadn't seen in a "big" FPS since the late 90s.

neogaf would praise anything that came out of their favorite mods' bunghole.  just sayin'.   

[duckman2000]

For real. I saw some initial praise for the game on NeoGAF, and I couldn't relate, at all. It even had this bug annoying view bob that I hadn't seen in a "big" FPS since the late 90s.

neogaf would praise anything that came out of their favorite mods' bunghole.  just sayin'.   

Well, I've got nothing against that particular mod, although I was disappointed that he didn't bother answering any of my questions about the game in the Turok demo thread. It's one thing to be irritated that your baby is being trolled, but I don't think questions like "is the view bob adjustable?" or "can you turn on human blood in the retail version?" fall into that category.

[demi]

It's ok, it bombed, and everyone cheered

[duckman2000]

It's ok, it bombed, and everyone cheered

I thought it sold disturbingly well, at least in Europe?

I don't really understand how you can fuck up an FPS formula that includes bow and arrow kills, and dinosaurs. It's like Rambo, but with dinosaurs! It sounds pretty idiot-proof to me. The lack of blood was a big turn-off for me, but I'm still not clear on whether or not that could be switched on/off in the retail game.

[hyp]

it sold enough to keep said mod employed.  turok 2 here we come!

[fistfulofmetal]

this thread is LOL

MGS4 = best game of the ever.

[Shogmaster]

I had a deja vu of the RE4 PC pics. No joke. I was like "Holy crap, did Konami hire out a PC port to the same guys that did RE4 PC?" LOLZ

[MCD]

Shogmaster

about time you showed up.

[duckman2000]

At least it's got decent texture filtering

[Flannel Boy]

mgs4 is a really nice looking game in motion, screens dont do it justice at all

This is a truism about every game, but it tends to be trotted out for games that are graphically disappointing. Nobody is reduced to saying that screenshots for crysis don't do the game justice and that the game needs to be seen in motion.

[duckman2000]

This is a truism about every game, but it tends to be trotted out for games that are graphically disappointing. Nobody is reduced to saying that screenshots for crysis don't do the game justice and that the game needs to be seen in motion.

Actually, that's been said quite a few times. It's not like it's impossible to produce trite looking Crysis shots, complete with dodgy texture work even on the highest currently available texture quality setting. Now, what's a little bit weird about MGS4 is that a lot of the shoddy pictures are official, Konami-published shots. But even that is not exactly rare.

Another thing that is very common to "trot out" these days is a comparison to Crysis. As if anything really compares favorably to Crysis.

[Pharmacy]

mgs4 is a really nice looking game in motion, screens dont do it justice at all

This is a truism about every game, but it tends to be trotted out for games that are graphically disappointing. Nobody is reduced to saying that screenshots for crysis don't do the game justice and that the game needs to be seen in motion.

how the fuck can you even use crysis in a graphics comparison? it'll always win

though saying that, crysis has some ugly textures in places

[duckman2000]

Well, the last piece of MGS4 media I caught showed Snake here traversing a snowy environment. And that looked really fucking good. The footage I saw prior to that was the "Altair" footage which, again, looked damned good. Nowhere near flawless, of course, but the whole package looks good. I think you guys have your faces so close to the cornshoot that you're unable to observe that it's really a pretty damned sexy ass. Visual quality really isn't MGS4's big issue.

[dark1x]

Yeah, MGS4 really looks lousy in some pics.  I thought MGO looked really nice while playing, but nothing spectacular.  I'm pretty disappointed by the visuals myself, but it's not a bad looking game.  I think we are looking at yet another case where a Japanese developer is unable to compete with Western technologies.

Uncharted at least has LIGHTING AND SHADOWING which is non-existant in those pics Shogmaster posted.

While that is true, the game DOES feature fully dynamic shadows for all objects and structures.  I'm not sure why those particular areas are so awful looking, but the game certainly has a fairly solid lighting/shadow engine in place.

[duckman2000]

Yeah, MGS4 really looks lousy in some pics.  I thought MGO looked really nice while playing, but nothing spectacular.  I'm pretty disappointed by the visuals myself, but it's not a bad looking game.  I think we are looking at yet another case where a Japanese developer is unable to compete with Western technologies.

Uncharted at least has LIGHTING AND SHADOWING which is non-existant in those pics Shogmaster posted.

While that is true, the game DOES feature fully dynamic shadows for all objects and structures.  I'm not sure why those particular areas are so awful looking, but the game certainly has a fairly solid lighting/shadow engine in place.

MGO was miserable to look at, and even more miserable to play. Still, the actual footage I've seen of MGS4 looks to be leagues ahead of MGO in terms of visual oomph, but it doesn't look like it's much fun to play. I tend to agree though, Japanese developers are generally being schooled by their western counterparts right now.

[Flannel Boy]

I was not directly comparing MGS4's graphics to Crysis'; I was contrasting how screenshots of the two games are treated. I was trying to show that if a game looks good, and we don't have to use Crysis, then people won't tell you how the screenshots don't do the game justice and that you should watch it in motion.