Democrat MI/FL/PR/SD/MT shit

[brawndolicious]

I just explained why alaskans get bridges that go nowhere.

[Debaser]

The Senate does give a lot more weight to the votes of people in less populous states.  You can argue that it's important to do this so the rural voters don't get overlooked, or that it really skews the representation and is undemocratic.

This is the entire reason we have two houses instead of one.

[Mandark]

I think the actual reason we have two houses has to do with the realpolitik of getting thirteen sovereign-ish states to agree on a federal constitution.

[brawndolicious]

yeah, having a state equally represented in this day and age is bullshit.

[drozmight]

why?

[treythemovie]

One of the leading ideas behind the formation of the constitution was to prevent the majority from oppressing the minority. The senate is one such way the founders tried to accomplish this task. Plus if you got rid of senate or based all representatives on population then you would be eliminating the bicameral part of Congress, which in of itself would be disrupting the separation of powers.

Suggesting that we merely eliminate the senate seems to me as a extremely foolish endeavor. It exists for a good reason

[Tauntaun]

When is the Democratic convention?

[FlameOfCallandor]

yeah, having a state equally represented in this day and age is bullshit.

[Human Snorenado]

When is the Democratic convention?

End of August.

[Mandark]

trey: I'm out of my depth talking about the founders, but my instinct is that the way the government is structured has more to do with the interests of the people who created it than anything else.

Either way I don't think the Senate is a great way to protect minorities in the year 2008.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Either way I don't think the Senate is a great way to protect minorities in the year 2008.

The point of the senate (or the government) isnt to "protect minorities."

[Mandark]

Either way I don't think the Senate is a great way to protect minorities in the year 2008.

The point of the senate (or the government) isnt to "protect minorities."

From a tyranny of the majority, duder.  Which is a very common concern among libertarians.  You know, "a republic not a democracy" etc.

[brawndolicious]

why?

One of the leading ideas behind the formation of the constitution was to prevent the majority from oppressing the minority. The senate is one such way the founders tried to accomplish this task. Plus if you got rid of senate or based all representatives on population then you would be eliminating the bicameral part of Congress, which in of itself would be disrupting the separation of powers.

Suggesting that we merely eliminate the senate seems to me as a extremely foolish endeavor. It exists for a good reason

The senate was more of a temporary system to make the colonists happy.  It doesn't make the government fairer today.

[Phoenix Dark]

From NBC's Caroline Gransee and Katie Mulhall
RNC chairman Mike Duncan and Minnesota GOP chair Ron Carey held a conference call with reporters this afternoon to discuss Obama's visit to the state tomorrow -- as well as to argue that McCain will be able to put the state in the GOP column for the first time since 1972.

On the call, the chairmen repeatedly sought to label Obama as too liberal and out of touch with the state, with Carey calling him “the most liberal candidate to run for president of the United States, certainly in my lifetime." They also argued that once Minnesotans see the “real Barack Obama ... not the PR machine Barack Obama” -- and contrast this with McCain -- the state will be winnable for them. They added that Obama lacks judgment, while McCain offers “solutions to the world."

Carey asserted that Minnesota is “certainly within our reach, despite what some polling might say right now," and that the state has been trending Republican in recent years (although Democrats trounced Republicans in the open Senate race in 2006). Carey also noted that Minnesota has gone from being the only state to vote for Walter Mondale in 1984 to coming within 90,000 votes of giving its electoral votes to George W. Bush in 2000, and again in 2004.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/02/1098096.aspx
sigh

[duckman2000]

And that state brags about its Swedish heritage. Everything but the progressive part, eh?

[Eric P]

yeah, I hate to sound like an Obama apologist, but counting them towards this mythical Clinton-math "popular vote"

to be fair, when have women EVER been good at math?

[Mandark]

duckman:  Minnesota actually has a really strong progressive tradition, but Carey's right that it's been trending to the right for a while now.  Still they gave us Paul Wellstone and I think the Democratic candidates there are still technically members of the Democrat-Farmer-Laborer Party.

[treythemovie]

The senate was more of a temporary system to make the colonists happy.  It doesn't make the government fairer today.

It was never meant to be temporary.

trey: I'm out of my depth talking about the founders, but my instinct is that the way the government is structured has more to do with the interests of the people who created it than anything else.

Either way I don't think the Senate is a great way to protect minorities in the year 2008.

I assume you are refering to the Connecticut Compromise. In which you are right, it was a compromise between the larger states only wanting popular represenation and the smaller states wanting to have a say. Another good point is that the founding founders likely did not imagine the large population difference between states that exists today.

However on the other hand, the Senate was never meant to be a democratic branch for the popular opinion. Most of the founding fathers invisioned it as a longer term group that would ignore public opinion and try to restrain the "fury of democracy". Hence the whole "not voted by the people" aspect the Senate originally had.

While you have a good point that the Senate gives too much power to smaller states, I would say it is unwise to overlook the Senate's purpose in protecting the minority opinion (or in this case, the small state's opinion).

[treythemovie]

From NBC's Caroline Gransee and Katie Mulhall
RNC chairman Mike Duncan and Minnesota GOP chair Ron Carey held a conference call with reporters this afternoon to discuss Obama's visit to the state tomorrow -- as well as to argue that McCain will be able to put the state in the GOP column for the first time since 1972.

On the call, the chairmen repeatedly sought to label Obama as too liberal and out of touch with the state, with Carey calling him “the most liberal candidate to run for president of the United States, certainly in my lifetime." They also argued that once Minnesotans see the “real Barack Obama ... not the PR machine Barack Obama” -- and contrast this with McCain -- the state will be winnable for them. They added that Obama lacks judgment, while McCain offers “solutions to the world."

Carey asserted that Minnesota is “certainly within our reach, despite what some polling might say right now," and that the state has been trending Republican in recent years (although Democrats trounced Republicans in the open Senate race in 2006). Carey also noted that Minnesota has gone from being the only state to vote for Walter Mondale in 1984 to coming within 90,000 votes of giving its electoral votes to George W. Bush in 2000, and again in 2004.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/02/1098096.aspx
sigh

Someone should probably tell Carey that the election in Minnesota was actually much closer in '84 then it was in either 2000 or 2004.

[Mandark]

trey:  Yeah, I'm aware of the original setup of the Senate.  Which is one reason I suspect it exists less for reasons of principle and more because a bunch of semi-aristocrats wanted to emulate the House of Lords.

I do think protecting minority rights against the majority is important, but using states as equally apportioned districts like the Senate does just seems like a bad way of going about it.  Especially now when the people most at risk for being marginalized live in urban areas in the big states.

That might just be my biases talking, but there ya have it.

[The Fake Shemp]

We're practically a country!

[Eric P]

We're practically a country!

you are, but that country is mexico

[The Fake Shemp]

'tis true.  We are live in an Asian flea market.

[Eric P]

can i send you guys some lists of bootleg dvds to snag for me?

[brawndolicious]

The senate was more of a temporary system to make the colonists happy.  It doesn't make the government fairer today.

It was never meant to be temporary.

I don't believe that the founding fathers ever thought that this country would become this big and ethnically diverse.  I think that the House of Representatives should be the only part of the legislative branch.  Filtering a bill through the Senate after it passes in the House isn't necessary.  It's not like senators are any more qualified to vote on bills.  The only benefit is to special interest groups who only have to pay attention to 100 politicians.

I think that having a senate is part of the reason why we have the two party shitheap today where candidates try to polarize themselves as much as possible ON EVERY ISSUE so that they can get a whole state to adopt a certain value system and other states to get opposite values.  In reality, an area of land with millions of people in it is going to have a bunch of different communities with different values but that's thinking too far ahead for the founding fathers.  I don't blame them, but the senate system is fucking worthless today.

[siamesedreamer]

Here's some post-partisanship from the post-partisan candidate:

Barack Obama has chosen the site of the GOP national convention in St. Paul to celebrate the likely end of the Democratic presidential primary contest on Tuesday night.

The Illinois senator is scheduled to address a huge rally at the Xcel Energy Center, his campaign announced Friday. "As Minnesotans, we're incredibly excited," said Tina Smith, senior adviser to the Obama campaign in Minnesota.

http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/president/19414809.html?location_refer=Homepage