PRIMARIES: THE FINAL SHOWDOWN

[siamesedreamer]

This is one of those times I wish I wasn't banned from GAF:

Democratic presumptive presidential nominee Barack Obama vowed Wednesday he would work to "eliminate" the threat posed by Iran to security in the Middle East and around the globe. "There's no greater threat to Israel or to the peace and stability of the region than Iran," he told the powerful pro-Israel lobby, the American Israel Public Affairs Council (AIPAC). "The danger from Iran is grave and real and my goal will be to eliminate this threat," he said, adding loudly to add emphasis that he would "everything" to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon.

LINK

OMG!!!!11!! Obama is going to invade Iran!!!

[FlameOfCallandor]

That sounds like something Bush would say.

[Eric P]

This is one of those times I wish I wasn't banned from GAF:

Democratic presumptive presidential nominee Barack Obama vowed Wednesday he would work to "eliminate" the threat posed by Iran to security in the Middle East and around the globe. "There's no greater threat to Israel or to the peace and stability of the region than Iran," he told the powerful pro-Israel lobby, the American Israel Public Affairs Council (AIPAC). "The danger from Iran is grave and real and my goal will be to eliminate this threat," he said, adding loudly to add emphasis that he would "everything" to prevent Iran from obtaining a nuclear weapon.

LINK

OMG!!!!11!! Obama is going to invade Iran!!!

CAN NOTHING STOP THIS MAD MAN'S PLAN?

[Crushed]

That sounds like something Bush would say.

bush = plant

plant is not gold

plant is devil queer triangle

NOT CUBE

[Eric P]

That sounds like something Bush would say.

bush would probably say "The danger from Iran is grave and real and my goal will be to elimidate this threat,"

[duckman2000]

Meh, boring. Let me know when a presidential candidate get the balls to call out Israel.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Meh, boring. Let me know when a presidential candidate get the balls to call out Israel.

...

[The Fake Shemp]

Iran is a serious threat.  I've said for awhile that Bush has invaded the wrong country.  Iraq was an isolated dictatorship that obviously posed no real threat.  That said, we don't have the resources or the international goodwill to launch a military campaign against Tehran, and I highly doubt Obama is interested in doing so.

Iran also has a pretty progressive youth movement, so I think most are hoping that they change their own country.

[MrAngryFace]

WILLCO EXCLUSIVE! SHOULD HAVE INVADED IRAN WHO HAS POSED EVEN LESS OF A THREAT THAN THE SOVIET UNION DID UNLESS OF COURSE U GO BY ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE FROM THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION!

[APF]

That sounds like something Bush would say.

bush would probably say "The danger from Iran is grave and real and my goal will be to elimidate this threat,"

I like elimidate, but IRL Bush would say something like, "The danger from Iran is grave and real and my goal will be to eliminate us."

[The Fake Shemp]

Or the fact that they've tried to destablize the entire region and delcare war on Western interests by proxy?  Who do you think funded Hezbollah, which led to to the total destabilization of Lebanon after they captured those two Israeli soldiers (albeit Israel totally overreacted with a crazy amount of force)?  Who do you think is trying to destablize Iraq even more than it already is, in attempt to have control over most of the Middle East?  Iran is becoming a scary power broker.

I'm not saying we should invade Iran, I was more or less joking that Iraq was the wrong country to invade, if you were to invade any at all.  I personally think they we can solve a lot of issues with Iran with firm diplomacy - keeping open channels of communication, but not bending to demands.  There is a progressive youth movement there.

There is a legitimate concern of them attaining nuclear capabilities, especially since they are gradually consuming control over the region and a conflict with Israel seems inevitable.  But they're not at the point that we need to invade.

[Human Snorenado]

Iran is a serious threat.  I've said for awhile that Bush has invaded the wrong country.  Iraq was an isolated dictatorship that obviously posed no real threat.  That said, we don't have the resources or the international goodwill to launch a military campaign against Tehran, and I highly doubt Obama is interested in doing so.

Iran also has a pretty progressive youth movement, so I think most are hoping that they change their own country.

Indeed.  We should have invaded the home country of 15 of the 9/11 hijackers:  SAUDI FUCKING ARABIA.

[Mupepe]

Iran is a serious threat.  I've said for awhile that Bush has invaded the wrong country.  Iraq was an isolated dictatorship that obviously posed no real threat.  That said, we don't have the resources or the international goodwill to launch a military campaign against Tehran, and I highly doubt Obama is interested in doing so.

Iran also has a pretty progressive youth movement, so I think most are hoping that they change their own country.

Indeed.  We should have invaded the home country of 15 of the 9/11 hijackers:  SAUDI FUCKING ARABIA.

[Tieno]

What about invading Texas?

[The Fake Shemp]

Iran is a serious threat.  I've said for awhile that Bush has invaded the wrong country.  Iraq was an isolated dictatorship that obviously posed no real threat.  That said, we don't have the resources or the international goodwill to launch a military campaign against Tehran, and I highly doubt Obama is interested in doing so.

Iran also has a pretty progressive youth movement, so I think most are hoping that they change their own country.

Indeed.  We should have invaded the home country of 15 of the 9/11 hijackers:  SAUDI FUCKING ARABIA.

BUT TEHY ARE R FRIENDZ

[Brehvolution]

Iran is a serious threat.  I've said for awhile that Bush has invaded the wrong country.  Iraq was an isolated dictatorship that obviously posed no real threat.  That said, we don't have the resources or the international goodwill to launch a military campaign against Tehran, and I highly doubt Obama is interested in doing so.

Iran also has a pretty progressive youth movement, so I think most are hoping that they change their own country.

Indeed.  We should have invaded the home country of 15 of the 9/11 hijackers:  SAUDI FUCKING ARABIA.

And miss out on all the money?!?
http://dir.salon.com/story/books/feature/2004/03/12/unger_2/

Imagine getting over a billion dollars, and not having to pay a penny in taxes for it.

[AdmiralViscen]

Who do you think funded Hezbollah, which led to to the total destabilization of Lebanon after they captured those two Israeli soldiers

[The Fake Shemp]

You deny that Iran funds Hezbollah and helped destabilize the country?  It all went well for Iran.  Lebanon was on our side, for the most part.  Now it's more pro-Hezbollah than ever before.

[AdmiralViscen]

I know they fund Hezbollah but it's funny to see the leaps required to directly blame them for wahtw Israel did.

[Mandark]

Eh, Iran doesn't have any plans for regional domination.  It wants to be a player but it's never started a war and it has a historic identification with its own borders.

What it generally does do is screw with American and Israeli interests, especially in places without a completely functioning state (south Lebanon, Iraq, the occupied territories).  I wouldn't say it's working to destabilize Iraq.  It's doing the same thing as the US:  trying to create a stable equilibrium that favors their own interests.

There's no sane reason why Israel and Iran should have a direct conflict in the next couple decades.  It would be a losing proposition for everyone involved.  The only way I could see that happening is through a series of escalating miscalculations and failures in communication.

But that's the case for most wars and it hasn't stopped them.

[The Fake Shemp]

I know they fund Hezbollah but it's funny to see the leaps required to directly blame them for wahtw Israel did.

I'm not quite sure what Hezbollah thought Israel would do when they kidnapped their soldiers, y'know, since the country has a long standing history of being peacefully diplomatic with hostile forc- OH WAIT.  The whole thing was a manipulation.

Mandark, I generally agree that Iran doesn't want regional domination, and as I stated, is working towards becoming a power broker.  But quite frankly, if we're dealing with the same type of people in power a few decades from now, when Iran pretty much controls the interests of the Middle East, are we that safe?

I'm not quite sure why you don't think a conflict is inevitable.  Its leader pretty much wants to wipe Israel off the map and so far, has been playing its cards quite well in the region.  Yeah, they're just a cub right now, but soon they'll be a tiger.

I feel it's important to address the threat, but not necessarily with bullets.  We shouldn't downplay the long term threat, though.

[APF]

The "right" country [/ies] to invade after 9/11 wasn't Iran or Saudi Arabia.  It was Afghanistan and Pakistan.


Also, if Iran's interests and the US' interests (and / or those of our allies) are in conflict, that's a conflict.  Since the way those power struggles are playing out in Iraq is through armed conflict, and not solely diplomatic wrangling, how is that not a direct conflict?  I'm not sure why saying Iran is working in its interest should somehow pacify the reality that this work is being done via violent means against the US.

[MrAngryFace]

Who DOESNT want to wipe israel off the map in that region. Seriously. Its not like Israel is innocent anyway. That whole area is fucked.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Who DOESNT want to wipe israel off the map in that region. Seriously. Its not like Israel is innocent anyway. That whole area is fucked.

Yes, yes it is. And the only way to protect American is by leaving and letting them take care of themselves.

[Brehvolution]

Who DOESNT want to wipe israel off the map in that region. Seriously. Its not like Israel is innocent anyway. That whole area is fucked.

Yes, yes it is. And the only way to protect American is by leaving and letting them take care of themselves.

But then there is the whole thing about the jews being "God's people" and America being primarily of christian faith and it being the christian "holy land". It's not like they will let the muslims have it.

[APF]

Jews do well in the ME so long as they're slaves or subjects.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Who DOESNT want to wipe israel off the map in that region. Seriously. Its not like Israel is innocent anyway. That whole area is fucked.

Yes, yes it is. And the only way to protect American is by leaving and letting them take care of themselves.

But then there is the whole thing about the jews being "God's people" and America being primarily of christian faith and it being the christian "holy land". It's not like they will let the muslims have it.

I'm saying what I wish we would do, not what we are doing.

[Eric P]

Jews do well in the ME so long as they're slaves or subjects.

i always buy jew made goods.

look at the pyramids.

still standing.

still impressive.

whose to say their shag carpeting won't hold up just as well?

the person who would say that is an anti-semite nazi and i won't have them in my house

[APF]

[Mandark]

Willco: I don't think conflict is inevitable because I don't think Israel and Iran have permanent, irreconcilable interests that will lead to war.

Iran basically wants to maintainWestphalian sovereignty, have a say in regional decisions that affect it, and expand its economy.  Essentially the same as Israel.

The danger is in a cycle of suspicion, where each side thinks the other is rigidly hostile and bent on the destruction of the other.  It's not true but it can easily turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Besides which Iran just doesn't have the economic or industrial capacity to find themselves pulling the strings in the ME 20 years from now.

[brawndolicious]

Some fundies like Tom Delay would candidly say to reporters that they support Israel because of something in the bible about "jews get holy land=apocalypse".  I think we can all agree that Israel needs to be kept in check but that it's not going anywhere.

I know they fund Hezbollah but it's funny to see the leaps required to directly blame them for wahtw Israel did.

I'm not quite sure what Hezbollah thought Israel would do when they kidnapped their soldiers, y'know, since the country has a long standing history of being peacefully diplomatic with hostile forc- OH WAIT.  The whole thing was a manipulation.
Mandark, I generally agree that Iran doesn't want regional domination, and as I stated, is working towards becoming a power broker.  But quite frankly, if we're dealing with the same type of people in power a few decades from now, when Iran pretty much controls the interests of the Middle East, are we that safe?
I'm not quite sure why you don't think a conflict is inevitable.  Its leader pretty much wants to wipe Israel off the map and so far, has been playing its cards quite well in the region.  Yeah, they're just a cub right now, but soon they'll be a tiger.
I feel it's important to address the threat, but not necessarily with bullets.  We shouldn't downplay the long term threat, though.

As you mentioned, about 2/3 of the country is under 25.  I'm guessing that's because a lot of the older generation was killed in the Iran-Iraq war so the country probably isn't interested in starting a war (not that they ever did start a war).

Also, ahmadinejad said "wiped off the page of time" in Farsi.  There's no other way to translate that.  However, some Iranians say that it ahmadinejad's to scale back diplomacy with other countries in order to focus on corruption in the government.  The problem is that this caused much higher food costs and now the majority of the country doesn't like him.

So unless relatively peaceful countries decide to commit suicide for an unpopular president's mistranslation, Israel probably won't be blown up.  Repeat that many times.

[APF]

Why is removing something from history (genocide plus scrubbing the record) somehow different or better than removing something from a map?  Don't you also have to remove map labels if you're erasing a historical record of something?

[Flannel Boy]

(Image removed from quote.)

So if you're a Democrat and voted for Obama, you're sexist. If you voted for Hillary, you're a racist. The only way to rise above this dilemma is to become a douchebag cartoonist!

[APF]

No, just vote Republican.  No one would call someone voting Republican racist, just because they aren't voting for Obama.

[Phoenix Dark]

ABC reports that Clinton is dropping out Friday, which I'm trying to confirm.

In any case, it's become clear this afternoon that as the reality has sunk in, this is a matter of choreography and psychology, of what form the inevitable takes.

The Clinton drama has competed for attention, one last time, with the scope and meaning of Obama's win. Now, it's Obama's party, and he will finally have the spotlight to himself.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/

Hm. Can't wait to hear what Smith's sources have to say

[Crushed]

No one would call someone voting Republican racist

I don't know about that.

[Phoenix Dark]

Roll Call reports that during a Senate vote today, Sen. Barack Obama "dragged" Sen. Joe Lieberman "by the hand to a far corner of the Senate chamber and engaged in what appeared to reporters in the gallery as an intense, three-minute conversation."

"While it was unclear what the two were discussing, the body language suggested that Obama was trying to convince Lieberman of something and his stance appeared slightly intimidating."

"Using forceful, but not angry, hand gestures, Obama literally backed up Lieberman against the wall, leaned in very close at times, and appeared to be trying to dominate the conversation, as the two talked over each other in a few instances."

"Still, Obama and Lieberman seemed to be trying to keep the back-and-forth congenial as they both patted each other on the back during and after the exchange. Afterwards, Obama smiled and pointed up at reporters peering over the edge of the press gallery for a better glimpse of their interaction."

http://politicalwire.com/

Does Lieberman have the Michelle/whitey tape?!!? 

[brawndolicious]

Why is removing something from history (genocide plus scrubbing the record) somehow different or better than removing something from a map?  Don't you also have to remove map labels if you're erasing a historical record of something?

Based on his tone and THE WORDS HE USED, he was more likely implying that the creation of Israel was wrong but not that invading Israel is right.  I will not trust anything you say on this subject until you learn Farsi.  I did so you have to too.

But seriously, Bush has recently shown that the fear-mongering it takes to get a country to go to an unprovoked war is really out of this guy's league.  He's unpopular and he's the president of Iran, so he hasn't got much power in the country.  If he had a lot more power, the means to start a war, the PEOPLE to start a war, and if he was constantly fear-mongering every single day, then I'd be worried about a war between Iran and Israel.

However today, blackouts are very common in Iran so building a nuclear power facility that they are open to the rest of the world about doesn't sound like a bad idea.

[APF]

I don't have to do shit but stay black and die.  You tell me he said something, and I have legitimate questions based on what you said he said.  Don't tell me, "he really said this," and then when I say that raises even worse questions, backtrack all over yourself saying, "WELL I WON'T TRUST YOU BECAUSE YOU DON'T SPEAK THE LANGUAGE!!!!"  I'm going by what you said he said.  FUCK this sounds familiar.

[siamesedreamer]

[Phoenix Dark]

From NBC's Chris Donovan
An interesting tidbit now that Obama is the nominee and in light of Bush's congratulations today for Obama:

”Jan Schakowsky told me about a recent visit she had made to the White House with a congressional delegation. On her way out, she said, President Bush noticed her ‘Obama’ button. ‘He jumped back, almost literally,’ she said. ‘And I knew what he was thinking. So I reassured him it was Obama, with a 'b.' And I explained who he was. The President said, 'Well, I don't know him.' So I just said, 'You will.' " (New Yorker, 5/31/2004)

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/04/1111026.aspx
 

[Crushed]

From NBC's Chris Donovan
An interesting tidbit now that Obama is the nominee and in light of Bush's congratulations today for Obama:

”Jan Schakowsky told me about a recent visit she had made to the White House with a congressional delegation. On her way out, she said, President Bush noticed her ‘Obama’ button. ‘He jumped back, almost literally,’ she said. ‘And I knew what he was thinking. So I reassured him it was Obama, with a 'b.' And I explained who he was. The President said, 'Well, I don't know him.' So I just said, 'You will.' " (New Yorker, 5/31/2004)

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/04/1111026.aspx
 

Wow. 

[brawndolicious]

I don't have to do shit but stay black and die.  You tell me he said something, and I have legitimate questions based on what you said he said.  Don't tell me, "he really said this," and then when I say that raises even worse questions, backtrack all over yourself saying, "WELL I WON'T TRUST YOU BECAUSE YOU DON'T SPEAK THE LANGUAGE!!!!"  I'm going by what you said he said.  FUCK this sounds familiar.

either you're starting the weekend early or you didn't get my sarcasm.

in either case, eat my cornhole.

[The Fake Shemp]

President Bush is such an ignorant slut.

[recursivelyenumerable]

Why is removing something from history (genocide plus scrubbing the record) somehow different or better than removing something from a map?

One is active and forceful, the other ("vanish from the page of time") is passive.  But really, quibbling over the translations of isolated idiomatic phrases that don't translate directly anyway doesn't get you much.  It's more fruitful to look at the context, and from the other examples he cited (the fall of the Soviet Union, the fall of the Pahlavis) it's clear he's not threatening genocide, but predicting the fall of a regime.  The whole "Ahmadinejad has been threatening to nuke Israel" line is nothing but incredibly tendentious propaganda.

[Human Snorenado]

President Bush is such an ignorant slut.

While I agree, the date on that piece is May of 2004, so it makes a little bit of sense.

Also- he's from your party!  But as always, we bible banning satanist homo-abortionists welcome your vote!

[brawndolicious]

I will never repost anything that Maurice posted again.