Author Topic: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries  (Read 3035 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MrAngryFace

  • I have the most sensible car on The Bore
  • Senior Member
o_0

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2008, 12:16:05 PM »
While I don't think sexism is the main reason she was reviled by the media, this stuck out:

Quote
Like Steinem, much of the second-wave women's movement would move from enthusiasm for both candidates to dismay and solidarity as Clinton was eclipsed and dismissed. They watched professional media types sing smitten fanboy hymns to Obama and, at the same time, spend hours dissecting Clinton's laugh and cleavage. The prospect of electing a black man clearly thrilled commentators, while the prospect of electing a woman elicited a derisive shrug. For some women, reaction to the coverage was radicalizing.

MSNBC especially was guilty of these transparent political "discussions" on Hillary's cleavage, her clothes, etc. It's really blatant now in the political cartoons, many of which will feature Obama towering over Clinton with something in hand, while she tries to reach for it. Obviously they're just cartoons but to me they demonstrate the tone of the coverage we've seen.

And of course I've been saying this for some time:
Quote
What's more, seeing Clinton losing to a younger, more charismatic man seemed to echo a primal experience of middle-aged female humiliation. "One can find it in any place of employment," Steinem tells me. "Women who were senior tellers in banks were performing the same work as junior vice presidents. They trained them as they came in at the entry level and then saw them pass upward."

Arguments of "qualification" for presidency are rarely valid but it's not surprising that many women would look at this election as another case of a "less qualified" man being chosen ahead of a woman. I'm not female, and I don't make that personal connection, but I have been shocked at how many women I've talked to who've said that.

But like I said earlier, Clinton was the front runner, and as the front runner she was faced with the most scrutiny early on - just as Rudy was (before any votes were counted). Go back and watch those early debates on Youtube; you'll see the various candidates taking every possible shot at Hillary and Rudy. The media often focused on them, asking questions that would later shape early primary votes - illegal immigrant drivers licenses for Hillary, and abortion for Rudy.
010

MrAngryFace

  • I have the most sensible car on The Bore
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2008, 12:20:12 PM »
Yes but as stated in the article, the initial attitude that she was a shoe-in at the beginning was because she was the wife of a president. I mean it works both ways. Hillary can't go negative fear mongering and expect people to:

A.) Still respect her
B.) Treat her nice

While its not an excuse for sexism, it is an underlying reason. She brought out the dirt REAL early, and so did the pundits. Ill grant you that its unfair sexist remarks are as unfair as racist remarks, but history has decided which is more of a 'wink wink nudge nudge' to the public. Its been said slavery was America's original sin, and for that reason I think sexism is allowed and racism is not.
o_0

siamesedreamer

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2008, 12:21:32 PM »
Arguments of "qualification" for presidency are rarely valid but it's not surprising that many women would look at this election as another case of a "less qualified" man being chosen ahead of a woman.

My wife doesn't follow politics closely, but that's exactly how she saw it. Pretty much every time some story would come on TV about the campaign she said something to the effect of "I can't believe the guy with no experience is winning".

She's an attorney, so she's had some experience with sexism in getting jobs. Its been very frustrating at times for her.


Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2008, 12:25:04 PM »
Black men were allowed to vote before women which is still telling. Religion, culture, etc have basically given sexism the thumbs up.

But yea Hillary was the first primary candidate of either party to really, really go negative. When she was the front runner the other dems would constantly preface their attacks on her with a "well, I agree with Hillary but LOOK AT MEEEE." Everything changed once Obama came out of Super Tuesday alive.
010

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
  • Banned
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2008, 12:25:33 PM »
i'm actually quite sympathetic to feminism, but in this case, they just chose a really poor candidate on which to pin their dreams of validation. obama won because his message and style was more appropriate/tailored to the current political climate, not because the media favored a "less qualified, younger male." pin the rest of the blame on harold ickes for making hillary act like gwb cheeseburger edition!

don't try to sneak a pro-rudy troll in there, pd.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 12:27:24 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2008, 12:29:30 PM »
How is that a troll? He was the front runner before votes were cast, just like Hillary. Both candidates fell on their faces in Iowa - one didn't show up and the other finished in third place. Go watch the early debates, like the September one, and notice the moderator's obsession with both candidates - plus note how all the other candidates kept attacking those two. Hell Hillary was being targeted in the republican debates lol.
010

MrAngryFace

  • I have the most sensible car on The Bore
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2008, 12:30:32 PM »
Hillary is experiened at playing in the current political climate. Voters dont want that. Whats hard to believe? Her greatest mistake in this whole thing was going negative. Had she campaigned as she did the last MONTH of the primaries but right after Super Tuesday I think she would have pulled it off.

While pundits act like going negative is par for the course, im pretty sure going THAT negative against your fellow democrats makes people think poorly of you, and also makes it easier to poke fun at you.
o_0

Howard Alan Treesong

  • キング・メタル・ドラゴン
  • Icon
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2008, 02:09:52 PM »
Arguments of "qualification" for presidency are rarely valid but it's not surprising that many women would look at this election as another case of a "less qualified" man being chosen ahead of a woman.

My wife doesn't follow politics closely, but that's exactly how she saw it. Pretty much every time some story would come on TV about the campaign she said something to the effect of "I can't believe the guy with no experience is winning".

She's an attorney, so she's had some experience with sexism in getting jobs. Its been very frustrating at times for her.

Like Prole said, but shorter: people don't WANT the experienced candidate. That's why she lost. Because "experience" means more of the hellish bullshit we've been putting up with for the past 8 years. If she had stayed positive and focused on issues - rather than "ready on day one" and "I'm the wife of a former president" - she would have won.
乱学者

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2008, 02:19:07 PM »
Obama won because Hillary was pro-war and centrist, and showed she was vulnerable too early on, allowing the hope candidate an opening.  People claim to want a kinder, gentler politics, but I haven't seen that in action yet.  There's a difference between saying, "this is why Obama as a candidate resonates with people," and saying, "this is why Hillary lost."  If Hillary didn't support the war, and hedged further left in the last four years, she could call Obama a typical crack smoking black boy and sill win the nom.
***

Howard Alan Treesong

  • キング・メタル・ドラゴン
  • Icon
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2008, 02:35:11 PM »
The other thing Hillary did which really pushed me against her was when it became a three-man race (Hillary and Obama vs. McCain), she would side with McCain on issues and try to paint Obama as the outsider. Which makes no sense, cause even a moron knows Republicans and Democrats disagree. But instead of tearing Obama down, she spent her effort building McCain up, and that was just distinguished mentally-challenged.
乱学者

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2008, 02:37:35 PM »
I like gravy with my biscuits, and I know John McCain does too. I don't know about Obama
010

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2008, 02:55:19 PM »
Hillary was already dead by that time.  Still, she was trying to show Obama's weakness in the GE, not build McCain up.  I think that would have been clearer to people if she as a person wasn't so polarizing.
***

Mandark

  • Icon
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2008, 03:00:50 PM »
Ill grant you that its unfair sexist remarks are as unfair as racist remarks, but history has decided which is more of a 'wink wink nudge nudge' to the public.

There definitely seems to be a bigger taboo against being openly racist than openly sexist.  The flipside is that it's easier to talk about sexism.

Because everyone agrees racism is such a bad thing, accusing someone of doing something racist is a huge deal and they get ultra-defensive and start screaming about the "race card".

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2008, 03:55:45 PM »
That's not really saying much though.  Since accusing someone of racist behavior is a big deal, to do so is an incredibly offensive maneuver that's designed to halt rational discourse--hence disgust over people "playing the race card."
***

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2008, 04:10:30 PM »
That's not really saying much though.  Since accusing someone of racist behavior is a big deal, to do so is an incredibly offensive maneuver that's designed to halt rational discourse--hence disgust over people "playing the race card."



Mandark

  • Icon
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2008, 04:42:23 PM »
Mmm hmm.

recursivelyenumerable

  • you might think that; I couldn't possibly comment
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2008, 11:31:42 PM »
I preferred Obama from the beginning cuz the war, but I always rolled my eyes at the anti-Clinton mob UNTIL Bittergate when she started channeling the RNC.
QED

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2008, 01:10:35 AM »
Your for candidates that continue to fund the war and vote for the patriot act?

recursivelyenumerable

  • you might think that; I couldn't possibly comment
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2008, 01:32:38 AM »
No, I prefer candidates, qua candidates, who actually have a chance of winning.
QED

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2008, 01:34:11 AM »
No, I prefer candidates, qua candidates, who actually have a chance of winning.

So what exactly has Obama done to end the war, you know him being a senator and all.

recursivelyenumerable

  • you might think that; I couldn't possibly comment
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2008, 01:40:38 AM »
because senators have the power to singlehandedly end wars.
QED

Mandark

  • Icon
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2008, 01:47:49 AM »
I preferred Obama from the beginning cuz the war, but I always rolled my eyes at the anti-Clinton mob UNTIL Bittergate when she started channeling the RNC.

Ditto.  For me it was the Commander in Chief threshold bit that did it.

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2008, 10:37:02 AM »
I preferred Obama from the beginning cuz the war, but I always rolled my eyes at the anti-Clinton mob UNTIL Bittergate when she started channeling the RNC.

Ironic considering the RNC channeling the anti-Clinton mob has been doing since the beginning.
***

recursivelyenumerable

  • you might think that; I couldn't possibly comment
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2008, 01:02:21 AM »
That's mostly been on Clinton-specific issues though, not general Republican narratives.  And the Obama campaign itself barely ever picked up on it.
QED

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2008, 01:52:25 AM »
Clinton managed to escape one of the biggest and most blatantly pathetic blunders in politics rather unscathed. If there was sexism, then I doubt it had much negative effect on her campaign.

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2008, 09:21:08 AM »
Leave Kerry alone already.
***

MrAngryFace

  • I have the most sensible car on The Bore
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2008, 11:05:33 AM »
No, I prefer candidates, qua candidates, who actually have a chance of winning.

So what exactly has Obama done to end the war, you know him being a senator and all.

o_0

Tauntaun

  • I'm cute, you should be too.
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #28 on: June 13, 2008, 11:30:18 AM »
No, I prefer candidates, qua candidates, who actually have a chance of winning.

So what exactly has Obama done to end the war, you know him being a senator and all.

*sniff sniff*  What's that smell?  Smells like leper. 
:)

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #29 on: June 13, 2008, 12:34:53 PM »
No, I prefer candidates, qua candidates, who actually have a chance of winning.

So what exactly has Obama done to end the war, you know him being a senator and all.

010

Olivia Wilde Homo

  • Proud Kinkshamer
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2008, 11:29:49 PM »
Hillary was given far too many chances and should be lucky that her numerous gaffes weren't blown up like they could have been, like with Obama.

Throwing the sexism card is just lazy.  Hillary could never get the foot out of her mouth and never once tried to make amends with the people she tried to steamroll.  She should have admitted that she made some mistakes in her campaign and would move on.  She pretended they didn't exist as she kept fucking up more.  I don't have that Olbermann video where he points out her constant mistakes but I think most of EB has seen it or at the very least is familiar with it.

Obama simply ran a better campaign.  Second wave feminists will never come to terms with this and this was precisely the problem.  They thought that because she was a woman (and there are more female voters registered), that she would win by default.  When Hillary lost, they thought it was only because of her gender.  This is why the feminism movement essentially failed in the United States: they are too tunnelvisioned and lost sight of the big picture almost immediately.  Different topic for a different time though.  Obama, on the other hand, is a minority.  He had to campaign his ass off to make sure that white people (male and female) would accept him.  They did.  He won.

I think Hillary ran a campaign that was typical for the Democrats.  Terry McAuliffe's presence was definitely felt in her run.
🍆🍆

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2008, 11:53:54 AM »
How many "ding dong the witch is dead" comments did you see when Hill lost?  I know I saw a few, inc in mainstream pubs
***

Flannel Boy

  • classic millennial sex pickle
  • Icon
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #32 on: June 14, 2008, 11:59:00 AM »
If the broomstick fits. . . .

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2008, 12:13:26 PM »
...toss it to her and let her clean the kitchen?
010

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2008, 12:31:21 PM »
Man I can't wait until John McCain whips that boy in the GE.
***

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #35 on: June 14, 2008, 12:31:55 PM »
What?  Surely you're not denying that Obama is a younger man than McCain.
***

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
  • Banned
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2008, 12:35:23 PM »
i think you're cracking up, dude
duc

Phoenix Dark

  • I got no game it's just some bitches understand my story
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2008, 12:36:32 PM »
like mccain's bladder
010

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2008, 12:41:17 PM »
How many "ding dong the witch is dead" comments did you see when Hill lost?  I know I saw a few, inc in mainstream pubs


The she shouldn't have been running the campaign that she did, if she doesn't care to be called a witch. You really can't run around trying to bludgeon the opposition with old campaign methods and then complain about harsh treatment by the media, and whinge on about supposed sexist treatment. Especially when you have based your whole campaign on your fucking gender, and when said media has actually allowed you to largely get away with some pretty fucking amazing displays of crapcraft. The fact that this old bat was still given the benefit of doubt after the "sniper fire" incident is pretty telling of how kush of a ride she has had. The witch should have been burned at that point.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 12:43:22 PM by duckman2000 »

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2008, 01:19:51 PM »
"Old campaign methods" is an empty talking point.  Your post is odd: "if she didn't want to be addressed with misogynist language, she should have known her place." Your comment that she was somehow given "the benefit of doubt" is just so far outside of reality I can't even imagine what world you've been observing.  Further, Hillary based her campaign on her experience in the White House, in politics, and her readiness to lead--not her gender.  Did Obama not use his "story" as the linchpin of his campaign?  The fact that he as a person is an obvious "change" (never defined) and that voting for him is a historic opportunity (never defined)? For both candidates, their genetic differences from the Presidential norm were a theme of their respective campaigns, and both candidates suffered negative reaction because of it; "old bat?" When you're trying to say she didn't suffer from sexist or misogynistic treatment? Get out of here.
***

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2008, 02:22:25 PM »
"Old campaign methods" is an empty talking point.  Your post is odd: "if she didn't want to be addressed with misogynist language, she should have known her place." Your comment that she was somehow given "the benefit of doubt" is just so far outside of reality I can't even imagine what world you've been observing.  Further, Hillary based her campaign on her experience in the White House, in politics, and her readiness to lead--not her gender.  Did Obama not use his "story" as the linchpin of his campaign?  The fact that he as a person is an obvious "change" (never defined) and that voting for him is a historic opportunity (never defined)? For both candidates, their genetic differences from the Presidential norm were a theme of their respective campaigns, and both candidates suffered negative reaction because of it; "old bat?" When you're trying to say she didn't suffer from sexist or misogynistic treatment? Get out of here.

Pfft. The bat ran an old fart campaign when an old fart campaign wasn't in style. This was made all the more tragic by her apparent inability to run anything but an old fart campaign steeped in slander and attempts at appearing relatively excellent by smudging the opposition. And that's what sunk her.

And there is certainly nothing unreal about suggesting that she received a soft light that was disproportionate to her position and goals. That she was actually allowed to continue to run this campaign on the basis of supposed experience even after she was caught lying through her teeth about her supposed experience is plenty evidence enough of this cushioned reporting. It wasn't based on association, but based on her own claims regarding her own experience. And she received a relatively free pass there, whereas she really should have been figuratively and literally egged every time she stuck her head out from there on.

And of course, when the previously forgiving media finally decides to acknowledge reality and declares her chances of winning as being non-existent, her campaign and of course an industry fresh out of political controversy falls back on claims of sexism being what lead to her fall. Which it really is not. She's an old fart with a vagina, mixing age-old methods with claims of being a new choice on the basis on nothing but her gender. That vagina might be what allowed her to guilt the nation into keeping her around, but the stink of old fart eventually became too blatant to ignore.

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2008, 03:11:29 PM »
Again, your comments about "old" campaigning is empty rhetoric / recital of talking points.  There is nothing "older" than saying you want to bring political "change" and refreshing new perspectives on governing--especially when you in fact are shoveling old shit under new management, as indisputably Obama is.  Hillary was "allowed" to campaign because she wanted to continue campaigning.  Period.  The media covered her because they love to hate the Clintons--not because they were somehow "easy" on her.  I defy you to find any media research that shows even an equity in positive coverage between Obama and Clinton; at best you'll see Hillary treated even-handedly, while Obama was gushed over with nipple-pinching glee.  You're perhaps mistaking focus for positive light, which is a distinguished mentally-challenged perspective for dumb people who are stupid and can't think outside their prejudices.  Hillary gets a pass at "experience" because there's a germ of truth in the claim (she's been involved in national politics for a lot longer than Obama), just like Obama gets a pass for all the "change" bullshit because he's an obvious color-difference from every other American President in history.  Campaigns choose their campaign messages--not the media, who largely roll with them.  The rest of your blather is purely unveiled hostility with a sexual tint, which is pretty common with Obama fans, considering they're largely douchey white boys chittering to each other about their magical black friend and the evil cunt witch who stood against his rightful ascension.
***

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2008, 03:25:05 PM »
Yeah I'm not trying to take away from those obvious points, but I'm always amazed at the level to which Obama fans will willfully deceive themselves about reality.
***

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2008, 04:24:42 PM »
Again, your comments about "old" campaigning is empty rhetoric / recital of talking points.  There is nothing "older" than saying you want to bring political "change" and refreshing new perspectives on governing--especially when you in fact are shoveling old shit under new management, as indisputably Obama is.  Hillary was "allowed" to campaign because she wanted to continue campaigning.  Period.  The media covered her because they love to hate the Clintons--not because they were somehow "easy" on her.

I'm well aware that she dictates the terms of her campaign period, but there certainly was not a due amount of public pressure on her to bow out. Her actions did not warrant a campaign of this length.

I defy you to find any media research that shows even an equity in positive coverage between Obama and Clinton; at best you'll see Hillary treated even-handedly, while Obama was gushed over with nipple-pinching glee.

But then of course, she doesn't deserve even the even-handed reception, given that her own strategy has been one based on malice, fear-mongering, mudslinging and selective self-pity in the name of supposed misogyny. Oh wait, there was the experience card. Except of course that the experience card should have been thrown in the ditch the moment it became painfully clear that she not only had no interest in acting the part of a global leader and facilitator/mediator of progress was she to be give the presidency, but was also a blatant liar about her supposed rugged experience. Granted, you could claim that Obama has floated on lofty promises and ambivalent claims of change, and you'd be right, but the alternative to a malicious campaign certainly deserves more positive recognition than one of the type that was lead by the bat. One approach can lead to proper debate by simply not venturing into the bogs, whereas the other requires each candidate to spend time cleaning up mud.

Yeah I'm not trying to take away from those obvious points, but I'm always amazed at the level to which Obama fans will willfully deceive themselves about reality.

Hahaha, you think I'm an Obama fan? :lol I suppose that goes well in hand with your general mindset and behavior; assume and base your counter-arguments on the standpoint that the opposing party sings the praise of Obama. I might prefer his somewhat fresh approach of not slinging mud over Hilary's old fart "elevation through slander" tactics and methods (yes, old), but his handling of the various "crises" signals a general spinelessness, and I have my doubts about this supposed change and new age of prosperity for all. Perhaps a suitable tactic for a presidential hopeful, but hardly one I can respect.

Again though, sexism hasn't cost Hilary anything. Her own actions, her own campaign tactics and how it relates to Obama, that's what made her lose. Bitching about sexism suggests that there is an issue for a female to win the candidacy, and that's just a bunch of bullshit.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 04:41:21 PM by duckman2000 »

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2008, 04:57:12 PM »
"Her actions did not warrant a campaign of this length" is a meaningless phrase.  Saying she doesn't deserve an even-handed analysis from the Press is just mind-numbingly moronic (smarter posters, please).  You say a "card" should have been thrown in a ditch (because lying about your own life story in order to perpetuate your campaign message is only bad when the white chick does it I guess), but didn't she lose?  Wasn't her credibility in tatters at that point? Weren't the only things that even temporarily buoyed her run at that point Obama's stumbles? So you're arguing nothing here.  I disagree that her campaign was particularly vicious to use your term, or that viciousness was solely found in her campaign or out of the mouths of her supporters--or that lying, fearmongering, etc apply there, or only to her as it were, as well (saying Bill Clinton not mentioning Obama in a sentence was McCarthyism??).  In fact, much of what you've been doing has been rather lame assertion rather than substantiation or really making or pursuing much of an argument whatsoever, to the point where, after three posts of yours saying basically the same hate-filled redundancy, I question why you're persisting; point made, and Obama's the nominee anyway, so the only thing holding you here is your own irrational and hyperbolic hate, spiced with meaningless callouts to misogynistic language.  Granted, you're on the boys' club that is The Internet, and therefore you have little perspective as to what is appropriate or not, but that raises the question of why you're so adamant to defend against sexism while at the same time attacking with those tropes, when the corpse is so very very dead.

Note that I didn't say one way or another what your political position was; I only contradicted your erroneous points.  You're quoting something I wrote in response to another poster, which is, dare I say, bringing debate into the bogs. The question of how much sexism has cost her, is different than the question of whether or not she as a person has faced sexism during her run, particularly but not limited to in her treatment in the media.  Someone with more than three brain cells (ie Howard Dean and Katie Couric, who apparently have at least four, though possibly they teamed up for this one) can appreciate the difference--can you?
***

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2008, 05:23:47 PM »
"Her actions did not warrant a campaign of this length" is a meaningless phrase.  Saying she doesn't deserve an even-handed analysis from the Press is just mind-numbingly moronic (smarter posters, please).  You say a "card" should have been thrown in a ditch (because lying about your own life story in order to perpetuate your campaign message is only bad when the white chick does it I guess), but didn't she lose?  Wasn't her credibility in tatters at that point? Weren't the only things that even temporarily buoyed her run at that point Obama's stumbles? So you're arguing nothing here.  I disagree that her campaign was particularly vicious to use your term, or that viciousness was solely found in her campaign or out of the mouths of her supporters--or that lying, fearmongering, etc apply there, or only to her as it were

Then do point out how these two candidates are on equal footing. You seem to be a major of fan of accusing others of supposedly providing empty arguments, yet I see nothing of substance here. Again, if we are talking about stumbles here, are we then comparing gaffes by association (which would be the major Obama crises) to Hilary lying through her teeth about her supposed great and rugged experience and being caught on it? Similarly, the fear-mongering has been her forté. Or did Obama whip out a "3am" equivalent that I just plain missed? Or, moving away from scandals, how about Clinton's appallingly passive attitude towards foreign diplomacy? Does that also warrant the same level of general positivity as the vastly more progressive attitude of Obama here, which certainly falls more in line with what one would expect from a candidate for the position as US president? Whether there is a follow through or not is perhaps a question for the next few years, but as far as methods applied and things said by candidates throughout this race, Clinton simply has not deserved the goodwill, not even the amount that she has received from the media.

As for why I persist, it's quite simple. I detest the candidate, her campaign and everything that she has proven herself to be throughout said campaign. I predicted that when cornered, she'd step into the shroud of any old fart politician, and attempt to win the race in the only way she knows, which is the battle-tested (thought apparently not quite as successful as she had hoped) method of glorious dirt. Dig it up, throw it around, have no shame about being a massive hypocrite and deflect the mud when it reflects back on you, that is the campaign that Hilary put her name on. And instead of perhaps learning something from this and assume that, hey, perhaps the mudbattle approach should be left in the past, we're now instead learning that sexism, that's what the real issue was. Not Hilary's application of old fart tactics to a battle that wasn't accepting of said tactics, but sexism. That's what we are supposed to take away from this, and yes, I see that as a real issue. Attempt to argue that the two fought using the same tactics if you want, but it's simply not true. And given the choice, I'll take the "new" approach as a model for future elections. Shifting the focus to argue that gender was a major stumbling block threatens this progress.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 05:25:23 PM by duckman2000 »

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2008, 05:51:57 PM »
Clinton hasn't gotten good will from the media, so it's bizarre you'd suggest she didn't deserve what she didn't get. You say Obama's camp doesn't fear-monger, but do they not fear-monger over lobbyist connections, over "100 years in Iraq," over life in America through the President Clinton years being a hellish abomination to which none but the most evil of unhopeful-nonchangers would ever want to return?  We've already had this thread weeks ago; campaigns use fear as a tactic because it's a useful device that works, even for the "new" Obama campaign.  Obama talking about his own life is somehow a "gaffe of association" in your twisted and willfully-ignorant irrational non-reality-based worldview of stupidity?  "Passive attitude towards foreign diplomacy" is not only another meaningless phrase, but even when untangled does little to produce a fully-formed and cognizant critique of her policies in that realm (not to mention that Obama's "accidental foreign policy" was itself the result of a gaffe, one that he's constantly hedged and walked away from when his resolution to embrace it was questioned).  Talking points do not equal legitimate, informed, and nuanced arguments, and I don't know why (unless you just want to have a distinguished mentally-challenged laugh) anyone except for a bonafide campaign spokesman or other partisan stalwart would want to trade in them.

I find it ironic you feel self-righteous about preemptively slinging dirt at someone because you fear they'd eventually sling dirt themselves.  Again, fighting hard wasn't her downfall (ever check the amount of people who actually voted for her? or the polls that consistently had her rating on ~equal footing if not better than Obama and McCain in the GE? for most of the time, the argument for her dropping out was about electoral math more than overall support.  But of course, post-mortems are more about justifying long-standing prejudices and preferences than accurately analyzing events--history is written by the winners, after all)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 05:53:31 PM by APF »
***

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2008, 06:11:21 PM »
Clinton hasn't gotten good will from the media, so it's bizarre you'd suggest she didn't deserve what she didn't get. You say Obama's camp doesn't fear-monger, but do they not fear-monger over lobbyist connections, over "100 years in Iraq," over life in America through the President Clinton years being a hellish abomination to which none but the most evil of unhopeful-nonchangers would ever want to return?  We've already had this thread weeks ago; campaigns use fear as a tactic because it's a useful device that works, even for the "new" Obama campaign.  Obama talking about his own life is somehow a "gaffe of association" in your twisted and willfully-ignorant irrational non-reality-based worldview of stupidity?  "Passive attitude towards foreign diplomacy" is not only another meaningless phrase, but even when untangled does little to produce a fully-formed and cognizant critique of her policies in that realm (not to mention that Obama's "accidental foreign policy" was itself the result of a gaffe, one that he's constantly hedged and walked away from when his resolution to embrace it was questioned).  Talking points do not equal legitimate, informed, and nuanced arguments, and I don't know why (unless you just want to have a distinguished mentally-challenged laugh) anyone except for a bonafide campaign spokesman or other partisan stalwart would want to trade in them.

I find it ironic you feel self-righteous about preemptively slinging dirt at someone because you fear they'd eventually sling dirt themselves.  Again, fighting hard wasn't her downfall (ever check the amount of people who actually voted for her? or the polls that consistently had her rating on ~equal footing if not better than Obama and McCain in the GE? for most of the time, the argument for her dropping out was about electoral math more than overall support.  But of course, post-mortems are more about justifying long-standing prejudices and preferences than accurately analyzing events--history is written by the winners, after all)

Do educate me, what lies about Obama's life have been brought to light that could realistically compare in gravity to fucking lying (oh wait, she misspoke) about a mission to a foreign nation? Of course, that one was briskly shoved under the carpet in favor of the much juicier gaffe by association that happened upon Obama's camp, one which the Clinton campaign in typical fashion on several occasions referenced and attempted to capitalize on. The lack of lasting egg on her face from this major blunder, that's your goodwill right there.

One candidate says that he wants to be pro-active in international affairs and actually talk even with leaders of nations that are not in the good grace of the United States. No promises of support or even recognition of methods, only to engage in talks. That's what one would expect from a presidential candidate as opposed to the two-fat-and-fattening-cheeks-on-the-seat "call me when they have already changed and we'll have some tea and biscuits" rhetoric of the bat campaign.

And yes, slinging dirt was certainly part of her downfall, or if you prefer, media and public reception of her campaign and subsequently her person relative to the qualities of the opposition. And nothing said or done by said opposition compares. Combine these two negatives and you have your traditional old fart campaign. One which was simply not the favored order this time around. But, oh yes, it was gender that did it.

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2008, 07:49:41 PM »
Dude, your answers are just embarrassingly reactive at this point.  The sniper fire incident was somehow "swept under the rug?"  Let me be frank: your hatred of Hillary has caused you to become insane.  Either talk like a rational adult or just STFU and stop embarrassing yourself.  There's a mentally-stable way of arguing that you prefer someone other than Hillary, and there's your route.  Step back from the brink.  I think one of the reasons Hillary supporters fall back on the sexism charge has to be the irrational hatred she seems to inspire on the part of angry men.
***

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2008, 07:59:44 PM »
Dude, your answers are just embarrassingly reactive at this point.  The sniper fire incident was somehow "swept under the rug?"  Let me be frank: your hatred of Hillary has caused you to become insane.  Either talk like a rational adult or just STFU and stop embarrassing yourself.  There's a mentally-stable way of arguing that you prefer someone other than Hillary, and there's your route.  Step back from the brink.  I think one of the reasons Hillary supporters fall back on the sexism charge has to be the irrational hatred she seems to inspire on the part of angry men.

More words, more lame accusations, and in a remarkable feat made possible only by years of experience in political trolling, even less substance than your previous posts. And yes, the sniper fire incident, involving a presidential candidate being caught lying through her teeth about her supposed great experience was swept under the rug, in favor of media focusing on Obama's far more tangible and certainly more alarming gaffe by association. And so much for you providing answers to rather basic questions, or examples to go along with your claims of a supposed even share of negative traits and episodes between the candidates. Good job. But you know, I R stupid and stuff.  :lol
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 08:04:10 PM by duckman2000 »

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #50 on: June 14, 2008, 08:03:27 PM »
Huh?
***

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #51 on: June 14, 2008, 08:04:46 PM »

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #52 on: June 14, 2008, 08:06:30 PM »
What are you even talking about?  Are you declaring victory and running home? Because lol.
***

Vizzys

  • green hair connoisseur
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #53 on: June 14, 2008, 08:07:20 PM »
fucking politics
萌え~

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #54 on: June 14, 2008, 08:11:14 PM »
Yeah.
***

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #55 on: June 14, 2008, 08:16:22 PM »
BTW, what does "gaffe by association" mean? --besides the fact that you have no clue what you're talking about, up to and including the language you use, I mean.

OMG Is Evilbore a GAF by association??
***

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #56 on: June 14, 2008, 08:26:47 PM »
What are you even talking about?  Are you declaring victory and running home? Because lol.

There is nothing of substance in your fucking posts, dude. Your political trolling career has reached a point of stupidity where you seem to seriously assume that simply being habitually against is in itself a valuable and informative argument. You seem to feel that Hilary is being unjustly singled out for being a lying bat. Yet when I ask for an example of a lie from Obama or his campaign that compares in gravity to the supposedly experienced candidate seriously distorting the reality of a trip made to another nation, or the following statement that she misspoke, your grand come-back manifests itself with claims of me being insane and on the brink.

Arguing that sexism is an issue might possibly deter others from stepping up, I don't know. But the reality is that her being called a witch has less to do with her gender than attitudes associated with various negative stereotypes within the gender. Maybe if she hadn't been a lying, negative and mudslinging person, she would have been labeled something else. Like presidential candidate.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 08:29:08 PM by duckman2000 »

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #57 on: June 14, 2008, 08:31:04 PM »
You're arguing against a caricature of my points, are arguing nothing particularly interesting, are avoiding reality by suggesting the biggest political "scandal" of this campaign that she never recovered from was "swept under the rug," and you use fictitious phrases that are hilariously pure spin.  Why should I take you seriously?
***

duckman2000

  • A lot of shit pisses me off
  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #58 on: June 14, 2008, 08:53:55 PM »
If you're not capable of figuring out what "[mistake] by association" means in the context of this argument, then really, don't fucking lecture me on language.

And as said, it was swept under the rug. It was a serious enough issue for the supposedly experienced candidate that the fact that it wasn't shoved in her face every time she poked her head out is evidence enough of that. She was allowed to live it down, as the focus shifted to the far more potent Jeremiah Wright issue. Which would be one of the "blunders" I'm referencing with my fictitious phrase. Seeing as how you needed it explained and all, there it is.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 09:03:44 PM by duckman2000 »

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Article: Sexism in the Democratic Primaries
« Reply #59 on: June 15, 2008, 10:34:32 AM »
I love how you make up nonsense phrases and then accuse me of being ignorant because I call you out on it.  That's what you call stupichutzpahdoucheification.  You're a complete moron and it's demeaning for me to continue correcting your inane posts, but I'll just remind your ignorant ass that the sniper fire scandal happened after the Wright scandal, that it was top news for literally weeks despite the fact that there's really not much to say about it except she lied / was wrong, that the media doesn't decide whether or not people can still vote for a candidate after it reports on a scandal, that Obama lying about his own life history to similarly enhance the impact of his campaign "story" got microscopic levels of coverage, that Hillary's campaign never recovered from the Bosnia flap, and that if the media's job was to continually throw gaffes and erroneous statements in people's faces we'd still be hearing about NAFTA-gate, still be hearing about Wright, still be hearing about "100 years of war in Iraq," still be hearing about Bittergate, etc; if the voters don't care, or have moved on (as they either obviously had, or ultimately took this sort of issue into consideration in their dropping support), why shouldn't the press also move on?  If you want an advocate press, there are plenty of Hillary-hating blogs out there that will oblige you.
***