David Hater Metal Gear Solid criticism (spoilers for pansies?)

[Tieno]

Interesting piece

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3168559
Solid Snake voice actor David Hayter was surprisingly candid at Anime Expo's centerpiece guest-of-honor panel, where he admitted to being frustrated at times with Metal Gear Solid series director Hideo Kojima's over-the-top scriptwriting and direction. He specifically called out the suicide scene highlighted in Metal Gear Solid 4 trailers, saying that Snake, a man who's killed thousands, shouldn't flinch at pulling the trigger on himself. "I didn't agree with that at all, and I begged them to change it, but I think it's still in the final game," he said. "I didn't buy it at all. I think it's weak for Snake to be killing other people and then not be able to kill himself when it's time. If he knows it's time, then it's time."

Hayter also revealed that wasn't the first time he's had issues with MGS scripts -- and one of the culprits should come as no surprise to longtime series fans. "It's a delicate thing to discuss love blooming on the battlefield with Otacon," he admitted, describing the original Metal Gear Solid's notorious unintentionally homoerotic cut-scene. Hayter also revealed that the actors "had a tough time" getting through the alternate ending of MGS, where Snake and Otacon are seen riding off into the sunset on a snowmobile. "It felt like it was written to be romantic," Hayter said. "It was just humiliating." He did mention that MGS3 and MGS4 had fewer script issues than the first two games, and he now has more power to veto particular lines. Still, he only has so much pull. "If I have a big speech about love on the battlefield, well, that's what I have to talk about," he said. "Some things are easier to say than others."

Hayter did offer unsolicited praise for Kojima, though, saying that the MGS boss has influenced his own day job as a Hollywood scriptwriter. "Kojima and I have different styles," he said, "but I've certainly learned things from him, especially about ambiguity and telling a story without giving all the answers."

Despite the fact that voicing Snake has surely opened more live-action acting roles for Hayter, he says he's reluctant to make that jump. "Over the course of the '90s, a few of my friends got to be fairly famous, and it got a little crazy," he said. "And I like to quote Michael J. Fox: 'I've been rich, and I've been famous, and rich is better.' I love acting, but I don't want to promote myself like that anymore." Hayter said he's content with his life as a voice actor and a scriptwriter.

Hayter also dismissed charges that Solid Snake simply apes Kurt Russell's Snake Plissken character from the film Escape from New York, claiming that he's simply using "the toughest voice I can muster. Besides, Kurt Russell's voice is more whispery." In fact, Hayter said he intentionally tried to stay away from any comparison to Russell when originally coming up with the voice. "Quite frankly, I didn't want [Konami] to get sued," he said -- and laughing, added, "I still don't know how they got around that!"

With Sony seemingly intent on making a Metal Gear Solid movie -- with Hayter petitioning to write the script -- one fan wondered who should play Snake on the silver screen. Hayter said that he's definitely out of the running himself, but that Hugh Jackman or Viggo Mortensen are the two best choices -- and frankly, I can't think of fans being disappointed if either suggestion comes to fruition.

Hayter was gracious and exceedingly patient with the fans, despite the fact that far too many seemingly waited in line simply to beg him to give shoutouts to their fansites. Hayter was smartly self-referential in some cases -- for example, he affected Snake's gruff growl and proclaimed that he wouldn't mention a site with "ninja" in its name because "I don't speak to ninjas!" To be honest, it was frustrating that questions weren't screened, especially since Hayter only had an hour to spend. Though I didn't mind the panel's egalitarian setup -- as press, I had to get in line like everyone else -- Hayter doesn't make many public appearances like this, and a few shameless self-promoters dragged down the electricity of the event and took up far too much valuable time.

Hayter intimated that he might be available for interviews over the course of the next couple of days, so we'll see if we can track him down for a one-on-one chat. Does Hayter truly have no place to hide(o) from 1UP? Stay tuned!

[Himu]

are there MGS4 spoilers in this

I think David hayter thinks he's more important than he actually is

[Don Flamenco]

I feel so vindicated.  The story is soft, even Snake thinks so. 

[Positive Touch]

I don't think there's a single person on the face of the earth aside from Kojima that thought the final scene was necessary.

[Crushed]

tha_con's inevitable response: "David Hayter is an Xbot troll."

[Don Flamenco]

The gaf thread should be priceless. 

If Kojima himself said "yeah, I fucked up" these people would say he's wrong.

[Rman]

He makes valid points.  Metal Gear Solid's Otacon ending was beyond embarrassing.  Crushed, you have encyclopedic knowledge of the MGS universe, which ending was ''cannon''?  Because Meryl was obviously alive in MGS4.  Was it another retcon?

[drohne]

isn't the otacon ending meant to be homoerotic and embarrassing? if you can't put up with a little thumb torture, he's your meryl

[Rman]

It was a necessary evil for the stealth camo.

[Positive Touch]

Meryl ending was cannon, of course.  MGS2 had a summary of 1 that confirmed it, plus there was a vauge reference in 2 that sort of mentioned her.

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

Any voice actor for that series that didn't have script issues during its run should be looked at with suspicion.  I mean no reasonable human being can look at the garbage and think that any of it was good dialogue.

[Mondain]

Was the suicide scene from the trailer anywhere in the final game? I don't remember seeing it at all after having completed it.

[Tieno]

Was the suicide scene from the trailer anywhere in the final game? I don't remember seeing it at all after having completed it.

Yep, at the cemetery. He puts the gun in his mouth and then the camera goes to the sky and you hear the gun go off. Then after the credits you see he hasn't shot himself.

[Mondain]

isn't the otacon ending meant to be homoerotic and embarrassing? if you can't put up with a little thumb torture, he's your meryl

Wow, nowadays you can't make beautiful allegories about the value and beauty of friendship between two guys without having to deal with a ton of blood thirsty people who seek faggotry in everything. Come on.  

Yep, at the cemetery. He puts the gun in his mouth and then the camera goes to the sky and you hear the gun go off. Then after the credits you see he hasn't shot himself.

I'm pretty sure I remember that, but then it wasn't in the same location as in the trailer?

[Tieno]

isn't the otacon ending meant to be homoerotic and embarrassing? if you can't put up with a little thumb torture, he's your meryl

Wow, nowadays you can't make beautiful allegories about the value and beauty of friendship between two guys without having to deal with a ton of blood thirsty people who seek faggotry in everything. Come on.  

Yep, at the cemetery. He puts the gun in his mouth and then the camera goes to the sky and you hear the gun go off. Then after the credits you see he hasn't shot himself.

I'm pretty sure I remember that, but then it wasn't in the same location as in the trailer?

Yeah, not in the same location. Just as Raiden's battle with the Geckos wasn't either, or Naomi's facial shot.

[Crushed]

CANON.

Cannon is something that you shoot things with.

[Don Flamenco]

funny that he commented on the MGS1 ending...I didn't find it homoerotic, but both Hayter and the VA for Otacon both sounded so uncomfortable when they were laughing at that dumb joke.

[Rman]

CANON.

Cannon is something that you shoot things with.

I know.  Honest mistake, grammar cop.

[Crushed]

funny that he commented on the MGS1 ending...I didn't find it homoerotic, but both Hayter and the VA for Otacon both sounded so uncomfortable when they were laughing at that dumb joke.

DAVE AND HAL, THAT'S A GOOD ONE LET'S RIDE THIS SNOWMOBILE TO JUPITER

HAHAhahahahahahaahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[archie4208]

Haha.  GAF is already turning against Hayter.  MGS fans are something else.

[MCD]

gaf is up?

[Crushed]

"If Snake had shot himself, we wouldn't have had that amazing wonderful Big Boss scene!"

[evilromero]

are there MGS4 spoilers in this

I think David hayter thinks he's more important than he actually is

No. Actually he brings up valid criticisms that have plagued this series since MGS1.

[Crushed]

One of the things that makes Snake so awesome is that the player can identify with the character

Yeah, I really feel I can identify with a genetic super-soldier who fights terrorists and saves the world.

[cool breeze]

Yeah, I really feel I can identify with a genetic super-soldier who fights terrorists and saves the world.

Yeah, but I'm no hero.  Never was. Never will be.  I totally relate to Snake on that level.

[Tieno]

One of the things that makes Snake so awesome is that the player can identify with the character

Yeah, I really feel I can identify with a genetic super-soldier who fights terrorists and saves the world.

MASTER CHIEF! (though he saves the galaxy)

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Now that I think of it, the chief's youth is kind of similar to Raiden, except that the chief wasn't a pansy in his tweens

[close]

[Jansen]

"If Snake had shot himself, we wouldn't have had that amazing wonderful Big Boss scene!"

ugh. that part of the epilogue was beyond ridiculous.

rebuilt from solidus and liquid parts (lololol) he comes back only to snuff out an invalid and knowingly commit suicide by visiting snake.

wonderfully horrid is what it was.

[JustinP]

are there MGS4 spoilers in this

I think David hayter thinks he's more important than he actually is

No. Actually he brings up valid criticisms that have plagued this series since MGS1.

does that make him important?  because i thought many criticisms were already out there and voiced by tons of people. 

in fact, i think the points he specifically brings up are pretty weak compared to complaints brought up by countless others.  "over-the-top scriptwriting and direction" seem to be 1up's words because they cite his suicide example, which i wouldn't necessarily consider a good example of kojima's "over-the-top scriptwriting and direction." 

i flat out disagree with him in terms of the suicide thing--snake being reluctant to end his own life humanizes the character and makes him relatable.  hayter describes snake as if he's a character from some other game where all he does is kill people.  MGS is a rare game that offers alternatives to lethal force.  his argument that snake easily takes lives and should be able to take his own without a second thought is a weak argument when this is one of the rare games where killing is optional.  i think it would have been a horrible decision to have snake take himself out without a second thought.  that just sounds stupid.  what happened after the credits is another issue entirely, but that wasn't something he brought up. 

then he whines about an uncomfortable scene.  just makes him sound amateur (well, he's actually not a VA by profession anyway).  as long as it doesn't have significant negative impact on the end product, i think whether or not a VA feels comfortable should take a back seat. 

i think there are very valid criticisms of metal gear solid and the script/dialog/story is fair game, sure.  a lot of the stuff at the end could have been edited out or moved to an 'extras' section.  but i think the examples cited in this article are pretty weak and it just seems like you (and some others here) are trying to legitimize any criticism toward mgs4 without actually examining it. 

[Tieno]

Justin, he's important because of his involvement with the series and Kojima, he's a successful script writer and the fact that he wants to write the MGS movie script. Because of that his opinion is important so it's interesting when lifts the veil on behind the scenes stuff and what he thinks of certain things related to MGS, especially when it's not just lip service.

[Tieno]

Also, I heard from people that Kojima himself wanted to kill off Snake too, but Konami (and other people on his team?) pushed against that.

[JustinP]

killing off snake is fine--it's the way hayter thinks it should happen that sounds stupid. 

[JustinP]

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0371684/board/thread/111158224?d=111158224#111158224

Everyone,

Apparently, the people at 1up dot com have taken some of the things I jokingly said at the Anime Expo 08 panel and made it sound like I had problems with the Metal Gear series and Mr. Kojima's work.

This is patently ridiculous. I love those games immensely and have nothing but massive respect for Mr. Kojima. I did mention one disagreement I had regarding the climax of the game, a question of character, but this is just par for the course when many people work on the same piece.

Anyway, I'm sure I don't have to remind any of you out there, but please don't take half the stuff you read on-line seriously.

Thanks,

David Hayter

[Grecco]

Pretty much. Afraid Metal Gear Warriorz would assault him

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

It's like his bicycle is going backwards.

He didn't say anything he needs to apologize for.  He mentioned one or two things he didn't like while gushing over the series and the crazy-distinguished mentally-challenged MGS fanbase all but firebombed his house over it.

This is exactly what's going on. 

smh at the hyper sensitive MGS army.  They're just as bad as any extreme fringe Nintendoid zealot out there.

[JustinP]

It's like his bicycle is going backwards.

He didn't say anything he needs to apologize for.  He mentioned one or two things he didn't like while gushing over the series and the crazy-distinguished mentally-challenged MGS fanbase all but firebombed his house over it.

he didn't apologize or retract anything he said.  he said 1up sensationalized his comments. 

[JustinP]

It's like his bicycle is going backwards.

He didn't say anything he needs to apologize for.  He mentioned one or two things he didn't like while gushing over the series and the crazy-distinguished mentally-challenged MGS fanbase all but firebombed his house over it.

he didn't apologize or retract anything he said.  he said 1up sensationalized his comments. 

I tend to think of that as the modern business equivalent of an apology or retraction.  I wouldn't expect anyone who wants to keep getting work in the entertainment business to actually take responsibility for things they say. 

For what it's worth, I believe he's actually responding to an imdb forum post that amusingly enough put words in the mouth of the 1up story.

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0371684/board/thread/111118811?d=111156459&p=1#111156459

Hey jerk-off,

I'm not sure what the f you're talking about. But I have nothing but immense respect for the games, the character, and most of all, for Mr. Kojima himself, whom I consider a friend and mentor.

I love Metal Gear 4. Someone at a panel asked me if I ever disagreed with anything in the games, and I did say that I objected to Snake's hands shaking, as he put the gun barrel in his mouth, as I did not think it was worthy of a flawless warrior like Snake, who has killed so many, to quail when it was actually time to off himself. I argued that if Snake had decided to commit suicide, he would calmly put the gun in his mouth and be done with it.

In short, try to get the real story -- instead of misreading internet quotes out of context -- before shooting off your idiot mouth.

Consider yourself off my Christmas list,

David Hayter

this was in response to a post that put words in 1up's mouth.  the previously quoted imdb post was from a new thread he made specifically about 1up. 

[Tieno]

That sounds (also) more like a response to the fanboy in the thread going off on the article and seeing any criticism of a particular aspect as 'hate' of the whole thing.

[JustinP]

That sounds (also) more like a response to the fanboy in the thread going off on the article and seeing any criticism of a particular aspect as 'hate' of the whole thing.

right.  but he addresses the article itself seperately in another thread.  two different responses to two different issues. 

[JustinP]

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3168629

he goes into detail. 

"David Hayter Critical of Some MGS Moments"

A fair enough title, I suppose. But, reading the article, I got steadily more infuriated. It's not that Mr. Fitch misquoted me, exactly -- I don't believe that he did -- but the tone of the article seemed to suggest (to me, anyway, and obviously to the young lad quoted above) that I had serious misgivings about Mr. Kojima's artistic choices, or that I was somehow resentful of having to perform them.

Nothing could be further from the truth, or a more ridiculous misinterpretation of my true feelings. And I said as much on the "David Hayter" IMDB message boards.

My post was answered by the following post, from the 1up.com News Editor, Philip Kollar:

"Hey, all, this is Philip Kollar, the news editor for 1UP.com. For those wondering, the story Dave is referencing is located here.

"I strongly urge that everyone read the story carefully and note that we didn't actually blow anything out of proportion here, even if other sites or forum posters referencing our article may have. The headline is the rather tame "David Hayter Critical of Some MGS Moments," and nowhere in the article do we suggest that David dislikes the narrative of the series as a whole or does not respect Kojima in any way.

"... I just want it to be clear that we certainly weren't attempting to take quotes out of context just to get attention. The writer we had covering this panel is as straight-laced and trustworthy as they come; he'd never toy with the facts just to create false drama."

Fair enough. I appreciated Mr. Kollar's input, and I will take his word regarding Mr. Fitch's intentions.

That said, I have written below, a few lines from the article that I took grave exception with, and my responses to them...

-- The article states, "David Hayter... admitted to being frustrated at times with... Hideo Kojima's over-the-top scriptwriting and direction." I don't believe I used the word "frustrated," and the description of Mr. Kojima's work as being "over-the-top" is entirely Mr. Fitch's wording, not my own. I believe Mr. Kojima to be a true genius, and I regard his artistic choices as sacrosanct and entirely justified in every sense. It is his game, his world, and if he says that Otacon and Snake ride off into the sunset together, then that is the exact, right choice.

-- "Hayter revealed that wasn't the first time he's had issues with the Metal Gear scripts... and the actors had a 'tough time' getting through the alternate ending of MGS." I disagree that this qualified as having an "issue" with the script (let alone issue(s), with the script(s), plural), as the "tough time" we had involved Christopher Randolph (Otacon) and I getting through the scene without breaking into uncontrollable giggling.

--- Mr. Fitch also referred to the scene as "Unintentionally homoerotic" and followed that up with my quote, "It was just humiliating." I couldn't find the direct quote, but I believe what I actually said was "Well, that's humiliating..." as a joke. This would not be big deal, except that some people have conflated the two phrases into meaning that I am Homophobic. Let me say, here and now, that that is the most ridiculous, and untrue, and personally offensive, thing ever said about me. I have nothing but love for the gay community (and pretty much every community, in principle). And if I were homophobic, I would be forced to stop hanging out with roughly 53.5% of my very closest friends. I work in show business, people... I know (and like, and respect) more gay people than I do straight people.

If I can clear up one gross misconception from this mess, please let it be that.

Finally, Mr. Fitch wrote, "With Sony seemingly intent on making a Metal Gear Solid movie -- with Hayter petitioning to write the script..." This is also untrue. I was contacted by an industrious young man, whose name I believe is Alexander Rogen (though that may be a mangling of his real and internet names), asking me how he could get the powers-that-be to agree to let me write the script. I told him that it was Sony's decision, and he undertook it himself (Alexander is 13 years old), to begin an online petition, asking for signatures in support of that. As I told everyone at the panel, I had pitched a Metal Gear movie outline to the MGS producers a few months back, and they opted not to hire me. That is a choice they are entirely free to make. I am not, nor will I ever be, "petitioning" anyone to hire me for anything. I am not suffering for screenwriting offers. I just thought I had something to offer that particular film, given my peculiar history. If someone else writes the film, then I wish him or her nothing but success. I want to see a good MGS film as much as any fan.

Look... I am not calling out Mr. Fitch. He wrote a fine article with many valid points. I just felt that the tone of the article might have been a little more inflammatory than the intention of the actual comments themselves. Given my afore-mentioned acerbic delivery, I take equal responsibility for that interpretation.

[BlueTsunami]

It's like his bicycle is going backwards.

He didn't say anything he needs to apologize for.  He mentioned one or two things he didn't like while gushing over the series and the crazy-distinguished mentally-challenged MGS fanbase all but firebombed his house over it.

he didn't apologize or retract anything he said.  he said 1up sensationalized his comments. 

I tend to think of that as the modern business equivalent of an apology or retraction.  I wouldn't expect anyone who wants to keep getting work in the entertainment business to actually take responsibility for things they say. 

For what it's worth, I believe he's actually responding to an imdb forum post that amusingly enough put words in the mouth of the 1up story.

Another hilarious thing is how he states "don't believe everything you read on the internet" or something.