The Braid thread of M$ lies and hippie Blow not wanting a job

[y2kev]

kids table is cool, but nick seems to lose his shit whenever anything even remotely creative or original is discussed.

[demi]

I pre-ordered Too Human, so I could get the extra armor sets

[drew]

this game is boring.

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

Can someone explain the ending to me?  I finished the game yesterday and I thought I understood the direction of the narrative until I got to the last level + epilogue and now I'm a little confused as to what the hell they're getting at.

[cool breeze]

I got that the dude was a crazy stalker and wanted to make himself seem like a knight, but in reality everyone saw him as a villain.  Apparently there is some really pretentious underlying stuff going on throughout the entire game or some shit like that.  I think you need to be an artist to appreciate it, or just stare at a random wall for 20 minutes until the meaning comes to you.

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

So did he burn his house down or was that a metaphor?

[cool breeze]

I'm not sure.  People on gaf seem to think they had it figured out.  Then again, people claim it is art and can be interpreted differently.  Who knows.  Blow sure doesn't.

[Snuflupagulus]

Can someone explain the ending to me?  I finished the game yesterday and I thought I understood the direction of the narrative until I got to the last level + epilogue and now I'm a little confused as to what the hell they're getting at.

He either banged his mother or girlfriend.  Or they banged him.  Or it was his sister.  But probably Mr. White with the candlestick in the Conservatory.  A restraining order may have been in place, issued by the municipal candy shop where untoward violence is committed. 

Great, sometimes ingenious puzzles littered with an inscrutable garbage narrative.  A durian is less ripe than Blow's elliptical wankery. 

[demi]

i like the cut of your jib

[Howard Alan Treesong]

I went back and got three more pieces

thought better of it, turned the game off

The End

[demi]

Robby bought me 3200 points today, and specifically told me not to buy Braid with it

[cool breeze]

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?showtopic=190136

There are spoilers in that, but that is the best damn explanation I heard that doesn't involve art kids getting emo.

[Eel O'Brian]

i am never going to play this game

[AdmiralViscen]

This is pretty wild

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?showtopic=190136

[Howard Alan Treesong]

that's a lot more interesting than the GAF interpretation of the "real" meaning

given the quotes in the epilogue, there's no way it's not correct

too bad I never saw the epilogue because I wasn't willing to solve all of Blow's dumb puzzles to 100%

[AdmiralViscen]

Yea, that is definitely correct.

It makes drohne's disses look hilarious

oh come on, nick suttner. blow designs like a genius and writes like a teenager. the enigmatic, ambiguous presentation of the story is interesting -- and i confess that i've yet to make much sense of it -- but the writing unmistakably belongs to the 'fragments beginning with the word she' genre so popular in high school literary magazines. granted that relationship angst, normally the least interesting subject in the world, is novel, refreshing material for a videogame -- but loving braid for its story is perverse. at best. it betrays an inadequate appreciation for its shit hot puzzle design

Sorry drohne

[Eel O'Brian]

that's still some shitty writing

[Snuflupagulus]

i like the cut of your jib

...one of the benefits of Catholic parents.

This is pretty wild

http://www.rllmukforum.com/index.php?showtopic=190136

I recommend reading this while reading that.

You will be taken to a different place.   Draft    .

[Howard Alan Treesong]

that's still some shitty writing

yeah, I'm with Eel on this one

Braid has a much more interesting premise than I gave it credit for

but that doesn't mean the writing is any good, or the premise is well-presented

[drohne]

at the risk of sounding like apf in the obama antichrist thread, i think those links to the atom bomb are pretty tenuous -- except of course for the epilogue book that's explicitly about the atom bomb. not that i scrutinized braid's story that closely, but my feeling was that the epilogue presented the princess as any unattainable, obsessively-desired object -- a girl, a scientific discovery, the candy your mother wouldn't buy you, your mother. this is a neat idea, but it's kind of embarrassing that blow's chosen images of scientific discovery are animal torture and atom bombs. the oedipal undertones are embarrassing too. and i thought the 'braid' level was interested in the way that reversing a situation can change its meaning, rather than REVEALING TIM AS A STALKER -- martin amis wrote a dull novel called 'time's arrow' on roughly this premise. i think all these attempts at at a definitive interpretation are missing the point, though the atom bomb one is of course much cleverer than the whole TIM IS AN ALCOHOLIC line of thought. it's ambiguous by design

[Howard Alan Treesong]

the line "Now we are all sons of bitches." is an incredible smoking gun.

[drohne]

again: there is one epilogue book that is clearly, explicitly about the atomic bomb. the author of that theory took hold of that aspect of the story and tried to fit everything else to it -- cleverly but unsuccessfully. at bottom there's just a ton of material that doesn't apply in any conceivable way to the atomic bomb

[Crushed]

I'll probably play this when it comes out on PC, but the idea that this funny little smiling man in a suit jumping on not-goombas is actually a stalker who sits outside princess' windows (while probably pleasuring himself in the process) is rather amusing.

Disturbing, but amusing.

[cool breeze]

It is true:

http://uk.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

it does seem pretty cool, but again, what kind of game design requires 100% completion (according to the designer's whims and vagaries of logic) just to have a chance to track down seven additional secret items in order to possibly unlock a secret ending that's the only way to know what the hell is going on in the game? if that's good storytelling then I'm the King of Japan.

[TakingBackSunday]

All hail King Patel

[Vrolokus]

it does seem pretty cool, but again, what kind of game design requires a 100% completion (according to the designer's whims and vagaries of logic) simply to get a secret ending that's the only way to know what the hell is going on? if that's good storytelling then I'm the King of Japan

I know what you mean.  I'm still angry I had to read some books cover to cover to fully get the story.  So unfair.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

it does seem pretty cool, but again, what kind of game design requires a 100% completion (according to the designer's whims and vagaries of logic) simply to get a secret ending that's the only way to know what the hell is going on? if that's good storytelling then I'm the King of Japan

I know what you mean.  I'm still angry I had to read some books cover to cover to fully get the story.  So unfair.

That's a specious argument and you know it - there's nothing keeping you from the end of a book except for time. The pages, words, and narrative are all right there on the page. The barrier of communication between the author and the reader is 0.

A game, on the other hand, can't assume that players are going to have 100% completion. The job of narrative in a game is to tell a good story for any player's path through the game, and a better story for players who invest more time. Braid requires 100% completion to even get the last level, and 7 secret stars (that you won't get without GameFAQs) in order to get crucial information for interpreting the game correctly.

Again, I'm not saying that Braid has a bad story - in fact, my respect for the game is begrudgingly enhanced by these revelations of what it's "about" - but it's certainly not well told and is an absolute failure as far as using games as a storytelling medium is concerned.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

holy crap, the star in the first level (one of 7 required for the "true" ending) requires you to wait for TWO HOURS?

[youtube=425,350]v42We6BaUh8[/youtube]
http://ca.

apparently some of the later ones are even worse

[demi]

it like, has a special meaning, man.

people defending this are turds

i heard blow needs his cock sucked... go make it happen

[Vrolokus]

it does seem pretty cool, but again, what kind of game design requires a 100% completion (according to the designer's whims and vagaries of logic) simply to get a secret ending that's the only way to know what the hell is going on? if that's good storytelling then I'm the King of Japan

I know what you mean.  I'm still angry I had to read some books cover to cover to fully get the story.  So unfair.

That's a specious argument and you know it - there's nothing keeping you from the end of a book except for time. The pages, words, and narrative are all right there on the page. The barrier of communication between the author and the reader is 0.

A game, on the other hand, can't assume that players are going to have 100% completion. The job of narrative in a game is to tell a good story for any player's path through the game, and a better story for players who invest more time. Braid requires 100% completion to even get the last level, and 7 secret stars (that you won't get without GameFAQs) in order to get crucial information for interpreting the game correctly.

Again, I'm not saying that Braid has a bad story - in fact, my respect for the game is begrudgingly enhanced by these revelations of what it's "about" - but it's certainly not well told and is an absolute failure as far as using games as a storytelling medium is concerned.

It's not specious at all.  There are countless books - some of the greatest novels of all time - that aren't equally accessible to everyone, and that can't simply be "gotten" by marching through them.  Shit, some people can't even read one of Shakespeare's plays without their eyes crossing, or need the goddamned Bible in modern language to "get" it.  You can buy the Odyssey in standard formatting because some people can't read anything in stanzas.  And some books are so subtle, people will read every page but never really think of What It Means... I mean to many, Camus' The Stranger is about a guy who shoots someone and goes to prison.  The End.

The definition of good storytelling is most certainly not whether it's packaged for mass consumption and appreciable to the lowest common denominator.  You might as well say War & Peace is a failure because most people can't finish it and everyone's named Anna.

[cool breeze]

Yeah, I'm watching the walkthrough for these stars on youtube.  I mean, this is clever in a way, but I don't see how Blow is above that chick who wore a vagina suit and rode around on a bike.  Actually, I think he is a bit worse.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

it does seem pretty cool, but again, what kind of game design requires a 100% completion (according to the designer's whims and vagaries of logic) simply to get a secret ending that's the only way to know what the hell is going on? if that's good storytelling then I'm the King of Japan

I know what you mean.  I'm still angry I had to read some books cover to cover to fully get the story.  So unfair.

That's a specious argument and you know it - there's nothing keeping you from the end of a book except for time. The pages, words, and narrative are all right there on the page. The barrier of communication between the author and the reader is 0.

A game, on the other hand, can't assume that players are going to have 100% completion. The job of narrative in a game is to tell a good story for any player's path through the game, and a better story for players who invest more time. Braid requires 100% completion to even get the last level, and 7 secret stars (that you won't get without GameFAQs) in order to get crucial information for interpreting the game correctly.

Again, I'm not saying that Braid has a bad story - in fact, my respect for the game is begrudgingly enhanced by these revelations of what it's "about" - but it's certainly not well told and is an absolute failure as far as using games as a storytelling medium is concerned.

It's not specious at all.  There are countless books - some of the greatest novels of all time - that aren't equally accessible to everyone, and that can't simply be "gotten" by marching through them.  Shit, some people can't even read one of Shakespeare's plays without their eyes crossing, or need the goddamned Bible in modern language to "get" it.  You can buy the Odyssey in standard formatting because some people can't read anything in stanzas.  And some books are so subtle, people will read every page but never really think of What It Means... I mean to many, Camus' The Stranger is about a guy who shoots someone and goes to prison.  The End.

The definition of good storytelling is most certainly not whether it's packaged for mass consumption and appreciable to the lowest common denominator.  You might as well say War & Peace is a failure because most people can't finish it and everyone's named Anna.

I'm going to try to keep this civil because I think this is actually a decent point for discussion.

Even the person who thinks that The Stranger is about some guy who shot some Arab somewhere, got a story out of it. And great books work on that level - that base level of plot, characterization, and pacing - while simultaneously working on a higher one. Braid is missing that lower level; its head is entirely up in the meta-symbolic clouds.

My argument isn't that "good storytelling" involves repackaging your story for the LCD - it's that good storytelling involves, well, telling a story. If you read half of War and Peace, you at least have half a story (the "war" parts, presumably.) I played Braid for 4 hours, getting about 80% of the pieces - but I don't have 80% of the story. I don't even have 10% of the story. How is this fair? How is this a good way for your game to communicate its story to the player? What incentive to I have to continue?

Braid's not the only game I've levelled this criticism at - you can't put your story in your game, hide it behind secret doors and codes and difficult puzzles and arcane player behaviors...and then point to it in defense when people ask why your game doesn't have a great story. If I played your game and you didn't tell me your great story, then it might as well not be there - and you've failed as a game designer, at least as far as narrative expression goes. No matter how good your story is.

[Cormacaroni]

Shakespeare's plays, the Bible and the Odyssey were all perfectly accessible to comtemporaneous readers (or listeners, most likely). There was no attempt by the author(s) to prevent or obstruct understanding. Now, if you'd chosen an example like Finnegan's Wake or The Dictionary of the Khazars, your point might have carried some weight.

[pilonv1]

this game is annoying the fucking shit out of me. rabbits everywhere killing me and shit not moving when i want it to. irreversible and tight channels can suck my cock

that walkthrough was fucked, glad i didn't pay for this garbage

[pilonv1]

The whole time and mystery level can fuck right off

[drohne]

braid isn't nearly as obscure as this specious atom bomb theory makes it seem. i think the key to its interpretation is not the epilogue's bomb references but the phrase 'the princess is in another castle.' what does it mean to be questing after a princess who's always somewhere else? what if there isn't any princess? what if the princess is trying to get away from you? what if the princess is actually something dark and dangerous? gamers are content-obsessed, but braid is more interested in form than content: in teasing the meaning out of old videogame tropes, in making the prefatory text for each world refer both to relationships and game mechanics, etc

[Hitler Stole My Potato]

The whole time and mystery level can fuck right off

:/

That's actually one of the easier worlds, or at least I thought so.  Some of the shit in world 4 (where you rewind time by moving left) and 6 (the time ring) made me want to pull my fucking hair out.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

holy crap, the star in the first level (one of 7 required for the "true" ending) requires you to wait for TWO HOURS?

No. You can do it in about 15 minutes, but most people are too distinguished mentally-challenged to use the FFWDx8 option.

you can't FF into time you haven't experienced yet, afaik

[Howard Alan Treesong]

braid isn't nearly as obscure as this specious atom bomb theory makes it seem. i think the key to its interpretation is not the epilogue's bomb references but the phrase 'the princess is in another castle.' what does it mean to be questing after a princess who's always somewhere else? what if there isn't any princess? what if the princess is trying to get away from you? what if the princess is actually something dark and dangerous? gamers are content-obsessed, but braid is more interested in form than content: in teasing the meaning out of old videogame tropes, in making the prefatory text for each world refer both to relationships and game mechanics, etc

this is interesting, but I didn't see this as a weird subversion of genre mechanics or a TWEEST so much as just, well, the tone Braid was going for. maybe it says something about how jaded I am by common videogame tropes that even subverting those tropes strikes me as trite.

but, come on, you're jumping on little Mario heads! how much more obvious could you make your "reversal"

[cool breeze]

No. You can do it in about 15 minutes, but most people are too distinguished mentally-challenged to use the FFWDx8 option.

I'm attempting to get it now, and doing fast forward just stops time.

[demi]

Groo owned, Braid sucks, life goes on

[cool breeze]

I don't even know why I am attempting to get the stars.  You get nothing for them and most are really stupid.  You have to delete your save game to even have access to them.

[FatalT]

I don't even know why I am attempting to get the stars.  You get nothing for them and most are really stupid.  You have to delete your save game to even have access to them.

Probably because it's the only replay value the game has other than just showing someone the final sequence.

[cool breeze]

This is so stupid.  An hour in it that fucking cloud hasn't moved past the middle of the screen.  I'm gonna play PJ Eden to pass the time.  Yes, its true, there are games out there where you can play for enjoyment and not some art wankery.

[homborg]

holy crap, the star in the first level (one of 7 required for the "true" ending) requires you to wait for TWO HOURS?

it's takeshi no chousenjou!

[Howard Alan Treesong]

holy crap, the star in the first level (one of 7 required for the "true" ending) requires you to wait for TWO HOURS?

it's takeshi no chousenjou!

haha

info for those who don't know this game: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeshi_no_Chousenjou

[Vrolokus]

holy crap, the star in the first level (one of 7 required for the "true" ending) requires you to wait for TWO HOURS?

it's takeshi no chousenjou!

Genius.  See, if the Virtual Console was worth anything at all they'd put that out on it.

Personally, I thought of Lucky Wander Boy a couple times while playing the later, weirder levels of Braid.

[cool breeze]

I don't think they can until Wii Speak comes out.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

holy crap, the star in the first level (one of 7 required for the "true" ending) requires you to wait for TWO HOURS?

it's takeshi no chousenjou!

Genius.  See, if the Virtual Console was worth anything at all they'd put that out on it.

Personally, I thought of Lucky Wander Boy a couple times while playing the later, weirder levels of Braid.

Funny, so did I. I also thought, "Lucky Wander Boy works much better as a metaphor for nostalgia for innocence lost than a platformer"

[TakingBackSunday]

I don't know, I don't think this game is so bad.  I think the puzzles are really great, to be honest.  The last game that's made me think like this was Portal, and I loved Portal.

I don't know if its worth 1200 points, but it's certainly one of the better XBLA games.

[cool breeze]

Playing through it again to get the stars (you have to delete you save game to do this), I just think this game is actually pretty bad the second time around.  First time you play it, it is great because you have to figure out all the puzzle and shit like that, but unlike Portal which holds up through repeated playings, this game doesn't let you figure out ways to solve puzzles quicker or anything.  It is basically retracing your steps and doing tedious actions to solve the puzzles you already knew.  I mean, when you don't have that sensation of 'oooh! I feel good after solving that puzzle' or some shit like that, you see the game for what it really is: dealing with terrible platforming mechanics as you follow a script.  You have no freedom during your play through of this game and are forced to do exactly what Blow wants you to do.  The only leeway you have is the platforming, which is incredibly clunky and at times feels broken to restrict you from doing a puzzle any other way than what Blow wants you to do. 

Bottom line is that if this wasn't an XBLA game and on DVD or CD, I would suggest returning it after one playthrough.  Great once and bad a second time.  Only reason to play it a second time is if you have amnesia and don't remember anything about the game.

In fact, I will go as far as to say that Braid is probably going to end up being the worst major XBLA release this month.  Geometry Wars 2 is better, Bionic Commando Rearmed is definitely going to be better, Galaga Legions is probably going to be better, And Castle Crashers is also most likely to be better.  I'm not saying it is a bad game (at least for the first playthrough), but the amount of hyperbole surrounding this game is misguided.

If you can find a way to play this once, I would say it is totally worth it, but now that I realize how little replay value this game truly has,  I would say that it isn't worth the cost.  I'm just glad I got it for free.

[disgruntled_jojo]

Please do not invoke Portal when speaking of this game.  Portal does not deserve such comparisons.

[Enl]

I've kinda back and forth on purchasing the game. It certainly is pretty to look at but it feels kinda like one of those flash games that tries to emulate a console platformer, and from what it seems it sounds pretty short with little replay value. I think I might hold off until a later date or a price drop. Plus Bioinc Commando, Castle Crashers and Galaga are coming and I much rather have those.

[Draft]

It's a puzzle game. You can't really expect a lot of solutions to each puzzle.

Portal may have had a few puzzles like that, but Portal is also basically a tutorial for like the first 10 levels. Don't get me wrong, I love Portal to death, but the first 11-12 puzzles are incredibly easy.

[cool breeze]

In many situations there seems to be a way to reach the solution other than the way that is intended, but you fail to do so because the game refuses to allow you to.  In some situations the character will actually reach a platform before fumbling on the edge and falling off after the run animation is already in progress.  Blow himself said that he limited the chances of finding alternate paths to solve the puzzles.  It wouldn't be as bad if they didn't show you that you could just barely reach it.  Other type games that offer one solution, mainly flash games, usually don't bother me because they never present you with the ability to reach those areas.  Braid does, but doesn't let you.  It is in some weird middle ground.

And even the later levels in Portal, in my case the advanced challenge levels, had me solving the puzzle in a completely different way than what others did.

I also accept that I am probably being more harsh on Braid than I need to be, but I do so to counter some of the immense hyperbole being dished out.

[Draft]

People are jizzing on Braid in a big way so I can get behind you.

For what it's worth, my love for braid extends only to the slick puzzle design and the charming art and music. I roll eyes mucho hard at those books.

[border]

My only disappointment with this game is that the pricetag and the demo left me with the impression that there would simply be a lot more content here than there actually is.  I only had to look up the solutions for about 3-5 of the puzzles -- which is pretty good for me, as I get stumped and frustrated pretty easy.  Only one puzzle (the end of Crossing the Gap) had a stupid "WTF - how was I supposed to know that" solution.  The other ones I didn't get were in the last world, where I had trouble really utilizing the platforms that isolate you from time reversal.  Considering the lack of any tutorial and my general ineptitude with puzzles, I'm surprised how quick and pleasantly I got through everything.

Other than that, it's a pretty cool puzzle game and I like the mood and art very much.  I don't understand why there is so much hatred here for it.....just misdirected aggression towards GAF and the developer?  Is there anything here that's really worth hating?  Maybe it doesn't resonate with you, but it's not offensively bad.

cleverly but unsuccessfully. at bottom there's just a ton of material that doesn't apply in any conceivable way to the atomic bomb

You mean the boy wasn't sitting around in a castle courtyard with a warhead, sharing secrets with it and giving fanciful names to pretty birds?

[Draft]

Which one was crossing the gap?

[cool breeze]

It's the one where you need to time it so that you jump off of the goomba who jumped off of your shadow's head.