2D run and gun games (metal slug, contra, etc) - let's have a discussion

[JustinP]

so i'm in the early stages of making an indie game in this genre and want opinions.  i saw you guys discussing alien hominid and figured we could break it off into a new thread for the genre in general. 

1. what don't you like in games of this genre?

2. what do you like in game of this genre? 

3. what are some of your favorite enemies in games of this genre (can include bosses)?  how did they act/what made them good? 

4. what are some of your favorite secondary abilities in games of this genre?  examples are stuff like megaman's slide or the contextual melee attack in metal slug. 

i'm not looking to just remake a favorite game or anything, and i've already got a few mechanics either already implemented or planned that i think will bring some freshness to the genre.  more than anything, i'm just looking for additional inspiration.

[Smooth Groove]

You could recreate everything in LBP.

/thread

[demi]

Just make it like Gunstar Heroes

[Enl]

What the run and gun genre needs is another Amagon to blast them in the vag.

[dark1x]

Of course, the Metal Slug series is top.  There's so much skill involved in executing a perfect run and it's satisfying to master it.  Only the 30 fps with slowdown framerate registers as a complaint for me (though it hardly ruins the game or anything).  It's still the best run and gun shooter out there.  Metal Slug 3 was probably the best in the series, though, and it's all been downhill from there.  MS3 was just such a huge game with so many unique environments (that vary depending on your path) along with a final stage that is longer than the rest of the other levels combined (and full of so many crazy scenarios).  Love it!

The Contra series is also generally solid.  The arcade and NES games were a great start, but Contra III was where the series really grabbed me.  I also quite enjoyed Hard Corps for Genesis and Shatter Soldier for PS2 (these two games were EXTREMELY similar in design, which makes sense considering the same man is behind both of them).  Contra 4 was a pretty solid entry as well, but there were actually TOO many levels and some of them were less interesting than others.  It simply needed some trimming.  Even still, it's my favorite DS game.

As for other run and gun games, well, Gunstar Heroes is a classic.  The GBA GSH wasn't bad either.  Gunner's Heaven for PSX was decent, though its level design was pretty weak.  Alien Hominid was kind of ass, though.  Bad level design and play mechanics ruined it.  Off the top of my head I can't really recall too many others.

[tiesto]

1. what don't you like in games of this genre?

-The tendency for them to switch up the gameplay/perspective/genre from time to time, a lot of these games has one or two parts that just aren't fun... getting turned into a zombie constantly in some of the Metal Slugs, the overhead stages in Contra III, the Thunder Blade part of GSH
-Bosses that are bullet-sinks (some of the Metal Slug games have this)
-Bosses that are less about reflexes and more about strict memorization (Shattered Soldier and Hard Corps suffered from this, even though they were both excellent)

2. what do you like in game of this genre?

-Fast paced action
-Tight controls
-2D graphics
-Usually don't feature stories or collectathon stuff to bog things down
-Usually have tight hit detection (exception being Alien Hominid)

3. what are some of your favorite enemies in games of this genre (can include bosses)?  how did they act/what made them good?

-Seven Force - loved the different forms he took and all the associated patterns with them

4. what are some of your favorite secondary abilities in games of this genre?  examples are stuff like megaman's slide or the contextual melee attack in metal slug.

-Contra III's jump and spin around, shooting bullets all over the screen
-Gunstar Heroes weapon combining ability
-Alien Soldier's hover and dash
-The flamethrower weapons in the later Contras

[Tundra]

Justin, as somebody who is also into indie game development (although for older than methusalem consoles), may i ask what your target platform is, what language you program in, etc...

My fave game in the genre is Metal Slug, but as an indie developer it's probably out of the question to do something which has as many background art assets as this game, i guess.

[Wolf Gang]

Develop your run and gun genre game on the PSP.

Let the widescreen show the DSfags what side-scrolling is all about.

[Tauntaun]

Metal Slug

Gunstar Heroes

Alien Hominid

[JustinP]

1. what don't you like in games of this genre?

-The tendency for them to switch up the gameplay/perspective/genre from time to time, a lot of these games has one or two parts that just aren't fun... getting turned into a zombie constantly in some of the Metal Slugs, the overhead stages in Contra III, the Thunder Blade part of GSH

yeah, nothing like this is planned.  if i feel it's necessary to mix up the action, i'll probably just do that with interesting platforming using the same view/controls as the rest of the game. 

-Bosses that are bullet-sinks (some of the Metal Slug games have this)

i think 3 is a good number for cycles.  and by cycle, i mean "do this 3 times" sort of bosses.  multi-stage bosses may have multiple cycle sets, but i don't plan on making the player repeat a single process more than 3 times. 

-Bosses that are less about reflexes and more about strict memorization (Shattered Soldier and Hard Corps suffered from this, even though they were both excellent)

my aim is to make memorization help, but not require it.  i want to give the player sufficient warning so that it's completely possible to beat a boss on the first try if they're good enough. 

[JustinP]

Justin, as somebody who is also into indie game development (although for older than methusalem consoles), may i ask what your target platform is, what language you program in, etc...

My fave game in the genre is Metal Slug, but as an indie developer it's probably out of the question to do something which has as many background art assets as this game, i guess.

PC only. 

i'm no programmer--i've learned some basic c++ stuff, done some Lua scripting to make a class-based team MP HL2 mod (from within gmod), and have programmed some of my interactive emedia pieces using Basic, but programming is just not what i want to pursue.  game/level design is what i enjoy most, and i also do art for games. 

so what i'm doing is using Multimedia Fusion 2.  it's a pretty powerful game-maker-esque software that lets me make games without being an expert programmer.  a couple more well known indie games done with mmf2 include Noitu Love 2, Bonesaw and "I Wanna be the Guy."  Here's the code from my game that handles a very basic bullet spray pattern when facing right:

Develop your run and gun genre game on the PSP.

Let the widescreen show the DSfags what side-scrolling is all about.

PSP version would be cool, but the engine i'm using isn't really portable at all, so it's going to stick to PC.  it's already widescreen on PC though. 

right now the graphics look like this:



but it's all placeholder art--it'll look nothing like that.  i'm currently fleshing out the art direction for the game--i think it'll end up looking pretty cool and offer something not really seen in 2D games.  for an example of my work in 2D games, here's an anigif from a shmup called Shit Storm; i did all the art in a couple weeks:



so while the art style will be very different for my new game, this is basically the bar i plan on surpassing in terms of quality. 

[JustinP]

gunstar heroes had slipped my mind and it's probably the closest thing to my game (though still not too similar).  have it on VC--will have to revisit it.  the core gameplay philosophy of my game is to overwhelm the player, but at the same time give them the tools/abilities to come out on top.  i'm embodying some of the general ideas found in bullet hell shmups (ikaruga, etc) into a run and gun game.  the tool ikaruga gives players to deal with the overwhelming odds is the ability to change colors and absorb bullets--ikaruga's specific mechanic isn't a core element of my game, but it's an example of the sort of tool/ability you might have in my game.  so to go off oscar's list, i'll share a few details:

Some things I like in my run 'n' guns:

1. One-hit deaths.
2. Fun power-up weapons.
3. An agile main character.
4. Really, really good collision detection (this is why I *don't* like Alien Hominid).
5. Bosses that seem overwhelming at first, but are completely beatable.  Multiple parts/phases to a boss are a plus.

1.  current plan is to have HP for the player (like in mega man or gunstar heroes), but personally i'm a fan of one-hit kills so we'll see what happens.  i just think that the current game design would work better with HP. 
2.  the game doesn't necessarily have weak weapons and strong weapons--merely weapon choice, and they're all designed to feel very powerful.  potentially, there might be a way to upgrade weapons--not an immediate concern right now, though. 
3.  this is definitely something i'm going for and is very important for the game.  it's part of the core gameplay philosophy.
4.  hit detection is also very important to me.  i plan to make the hitboxes easy to recognize.  it's hard to tell in the downsized anigif, but the ship has a gem to identify the hitbox--similar concepts will carry over for your character and the enemies. 
5.  seemingly overwhelming bosses fit right in with the seemingly overwhelming everything game design philosophy i'm using .  and yeah, i think multi-stage bosses will definitely make it in. 

[tiesto]

Oh yeah, another suggestion - definitely have some platformer style obstacle courses in the game. I love those. Anyways, this sounds like it'll be fun. I'm OK at sprite art, not so hot at animation, perhaps I could find some way to be of assistance?

[Tundra]

(Image removed from quote.)

Very interesting, i didn't know there is stuff like that around. I am still a kind of oldschool c/assembly guy..How is the framesspeed on these "generated" games?

Shitstorm looks really nice...

[JustinP]

Oh yeah, another suggestion - definitely have some platformer style obstacle courses in the game. I love those. Anyways, this sounds like it'll be fun. I'm OK at sprite art, not so hot at animation, perhaps I could find some way to be of assistance?

not looking for outside help--sorry.  thanks for the offer though

(Image removed from quote.)

Very interesting, i didn't know there is stuff like that around. I am still a kind of oldschool c/assembly guy..How is the framesspeed on these "generated" games?

Shitstorm looks really nice...

i should specify that shitstorm is not made in mmf2--i was the artist for that game teamed up with 3 programmers doing c++.  but mmf2 supports .png transparency without a problem so if i tried, i don't see why i couldn't remake the visuals of shitstorm in mmf2.  we used BulletML for shitstorm and i wish there was a way to incorporate it into mmf2, but it looks like i'll have to do all the bullet patterns manually

you can lock mmf2 FPS at whatever.  right now i have it at 50--partly because it makes certain calculations easier.  right now my game is not HWA--mmf2 does have support for it but i haven't messed with it yet. 

[Enl]

Thanks for the editor suggestion! I'm not very knowledgable in programming code but if I had the tools there for me I can make do quite nicely. I wonder if it's capable of making the side scrolling slasher adventure game I've always wanted to make. If MMF2 is capable of making Nuito Love then I'm sure it can make my game.

As far as shooters go I got into Turrican pretty heavily early this year. One thing that got me hooked on it was the moves that I had at my disposal, the incredible level design and ungodly music. It's like a mixture of Contra and Metroid. The enviroments are broken up in stages but they're so massive that it comes off as mini explorable worlds like Metroid. The action is very frantic and fast, very much like Contra. Definitely check out Turrican 2 if you are looking for some influence.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Play Shock Troopers 2.