Discussion on Eugenics

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

When I wrote my post on the locked thread created by Hollywood, I went to bed, and woke up to find that it was locked.  There was an active discussion about it so why not discuss it further.

Eugenics shocks a lot of people but I think it is inevitable, now that nanomachines offer promises like getting rid of cancer.  My reasons for why it will happen:

1) Dwindling natural resources - Things are taken out of the Earth far faster than they are being replaced.  Something nobody thinks about is water.  Confined aquifers (underground water sources used for irrigation) are being drained quickly.  For some, for every 1 cubic meter of water recharged into the aquifer, 12 cubic meters are getting taken out.  This means that underground water will soon run out, creating mass starvation, unless someone were to find out a way to grow edible plants for mass consumption in salt water or no water at all.

Eugenics would play a role here because you could have more scientists and engineers to fix the problem and less people using the remaining precious natural resources.  In other words, the worthy people will be the last ones to use it.

2) Controlling epidemics - AIDS isn't going away and in fact, it is spreading to other nations.  A forced sterilization and quarantine program can significantly cut down the AIDS transmission and this includes rape.  AIDS would not go away but turn into something like smallpox where there are a few cases here and there but nothing significant.  Note this doesn't mean targeting specific ethnicities or orientations.  Just those that are infected.  Besides, I doubt AIDS is the last epidemic to happen to humanity nor is it probably the most severe.  Why should more virgins get raped or people get the infection because they were never informed of their partners' condition?

3) Reducing violent crimes and sex crimes - If a pedophile rapes a child, forced sterilization.  While it is unfortunate they have the urges to diddle kiddies, that doesn't mean they should breed either.  Chemical castration is a fence sitting answer.

The ethics issue here is that in the past, a lot of times race was the determining factor.  I don't think it should be now but as we continue to advance technologically in society, we can do better than simply live and let live.  That plan isn't working.

Note that my reasons for eugenics may differ from others.

[Positive Touch]

ok hitler

[Brehvolution]

This all was happening long before there was a study on it.

Natural selection.

[Great Rumbler]

Eugenics is another one of those ideas that sounds great on paper, but would never work in practice. The problem is that to enforce it at the level necessary to actually make it work would require a totalitarian government not unlike the one from 1984. And the problem with that, aside from the obvious, is that it would breed dissension and rebellion which would either muddle the process or halt it entirely and, in the case of the latter, turn everyone off to the idea of eugenics completely.

It's possible on a small scale or in isolate cases, but I just don't see it working on a global or even national scale.

[Mandark]

Don't take this personally, The Experiment, but I've had you filed under "probably crazy" for a while now and this thread just crystallizes that assessment.

[Beardo]

Eugenics the explanation given to justify the holocaust.

[Joe Molotov]

It's all well and good until you create a race of supermen that go all Wrath of Khan on you.

[Beardo]

And yes, eugenics were used to justify the Holocaust, but that doesn't mean that it couldn't be highly beneficial if used in a responsible manner.

 

[Beardo]

You guys realize that if parents could chose the traits of their children there would no longer be any gay people.

[Crushed]

now that nanomachines offer promises like getting rid of cancer.

slow down there hideo kojima, "fighting cancer with nanostructures that adhere to tumors" doesn't exactly segue into "let's castrate the undesirables"

[Mandark]

I think anyone who gets too emotionally attached to a superhero movie's place in the cinematic cannon shouldn't be allowed to breed.

[Flannel Boy]

You guys realize that if parents could chose the traits of their children there would no longer be any gay people.

I don't believe that would happen. I'm sure a large percentage of lesbian mother's would, if the technology were available, choose to have gay children. And some straight couples would as well. And let's not forget that many parents would completely shun genetic engineering technology.

homosexuality isn't completely genetic; prenatal hormones play a significant role.

Are you saying that the complete elimination of IQs under 75 in future generations would not be beneficial?

People with IQ's over 75 would still produce children with IQ's below 75.

See Down syndrome, for example.

[Beardo]

You guys realize that if parents could chose the traits of their children there would no longer be any gay people.

I don't believe that would happen. I'm sure a large percentage of lesbian mother's would, if the technology were available, choose to have gay children. And some straight couples would as well. And let's not forget that many parents would completely shun genetic engineering technology.

No straight couple would ever give up their chance of having grand children. Parents want grand children thats pretty much fact.

[Beardo]

People with IQ's over 75 would still produce children with IQ's below 75.

See Down syndrome, for example.

Well not the complete elimination then, but the average IQ of the world would increase by quite a bit.

You realize that IQ 100 is the average by definition right?

[Mandark]

I'm sure a large percentage of lesbian mother's would, if the technology were available, choose to have gay children. And some straight couples would as well.

There is no reason for me to write this post other than being a dick.

[Flannel Boy]

No laws need to be passed to prevent me from breeding. All women have already made an informal agreement to prevent me from breeding.

No straight couple would ever give up their chance of having grand children. Parents want grand children thats pretty much fact.

Some might. Even if they didn't, my other points still stand.

Well not the complete elimination then, but the average IQ of the world would increase by quite a bit.

Such a coercive program is morally wrong in of itself. But people whose IQs have been depressed by environmental factors would be disproportionately targeted by such a program.

There is no reason for me to write this post other than being a dick.

My eyes are nearly closed, and I can barely see, let alone think.

[BobbyRobby]

eugenics is great as long it's voluntary.

if people want to go on welfare i can support temporary sterilization though

[bagofeyes]

Yeah, lets get rid of the useless. I want human to robot modifications to start as soon as possible too. Put my brain in a machine, baby.

[Positive Touch]

Yeah, lets get rid of the useless. I want human to robot modifications to start as soon as possible too. Put my brain in a machine, baby.

thank god i've finally found someone who's on the same page as me.
my life won't be complete until i can be jc denton

[Crushed]

Yeah, lets get rid of the useless. I want human to robot modifications to start as soon as possible too. Put my brain in a machine, baby.

thank god i've finally found someone who's on the same page as me.
my life won't be complete until i can be jc denton

But then you'll spend the rest of your life in philosophical debates with bartenders, hobos, and computers.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

The holocaust made the basic assumption that there was a supreme Nordic race and that all the gays, Jews, homosexuals, etc. were holding it back.  Eugenics and sterilization is about finding a way to make the planet sustain itself for far longer instead of letting it overpopulate, drain the natural resources, and then everyone dies.  Its more about trimming the fat of society than it is about unleashing the ubermensch.

Don't take this personally, The Experiment, but I've had you filed under "probably crazy" for a while now and this thread just crystallizes that assessment.

I thought we were cool, man.

[Crushed]

The holocaust made the basic assumption that there was a supreme Nordic race and that all the gays, Jews, homosexuals, etc. were holding it back.  Eugenics and sterilization is about finding a way to make the planet sustain itself for far longer instead of letting it overpopulate, drain the natural resources, and then everyone dies.  Its more about trimming the fat of society than it is about unleashing the ubermensch.

Doesn't that raise the problem of the "fat" and the "lean" being an arbitrary distinction?

[Madrun Badrun]

This thread is a joke thread right?  Though the thought of every woman being a blasian is rather nice.

I am fairly high up on the ladder from a genetic standpoint

 

[Mandark]

I thought we were cool, man.

We are!  I said not to take it personally.  You're just a little kooky is all.

[Fresh Prince]

The holocaust made the basic assumption that there was a supreme Nordic race and that all the gays, Jews, homosexuals, etc. were holding it back.  Eugenics and sterilization is about finding a way to make the planet sustain itself for far longer instead of letting it overpopulate, drain the natural resources, and then everyone dies.  Its more about trimming the fat of society than it is about unleashing the ubermensch.

Population per se is not the problem. The amount of resources consumed by each person is.

Eugenics is a very bad idea because if you're thinking of implemeting it on a purely genetic level, you're not giving any credence to other intagible factors such as environment, experience etc. I mean you need varied genetic material anyway for humainty to survive anyway.

[Madrun Badrun]

The holocaust made the basic assumption that there was a supreme Nordic race and that all the gays, Jews, homosexuals, etc. were holding it back.  Eugenics and sterilization is about finding a way to make the planet sustain itself for far longer instead of letting it overpopulate, drain the natural resources, and then everyone dies.  Its more about trimming the fat of society than it is about unleashing the ubermensch.

Population per se is not the problem. The amount of resources consumed by each person is.

Eugenics is a very bad idea because if you're thinking of implemeting it on a purely genetic level, you're not giving any credence to other intagible factors such as environment, experience etc. I mean you need varied genetic material anyway for humainty to survive anyway.

No for humanity to survive we need to breed people that consume less water and have less sex.  Also lets get rid of the Africans because they're just a bunch of AIDS carrying rapists anyways.  Am I right? 

[Fresh Prince]

The Experiment needs to watch Gattaca. It's like the Forrest Gump of science fiction.

[BobbyRobby]

if they isolated genes for intelligence, no one here would make their child a genius if possible?

[Fresh Prince]

My experience has led me to believe that smart people aren't necessarily happier.

[Hangatýr]

Message Deleted

[bagofeyes]

you have shitty taste in music though. sterilisation for you.

[Eric P]

40 oz to freedom was put together quite well.  i recently re-listened to it after many years of avoiding anything sublime related (including their fans! lawl), but yeah.  it was my first exposure to them and i think that it was their best work and i do find his death to be unfortunate because i would have liked to have seen what he would be doing later on, like say...now.

[tiesto]

Eugenics were pretty big at the turn of the century in America, as well... a fairly local laboratory (Cold Spring Harbor) was the hotbed for the eugenics movement... forced sterilization of the distinguished mentally-challenged, blacks, poor, Jews, etc. was going on in a very limited manner. Lots of prominent people supported eugenics, but the rise of Nazi Germany basically put a stop to it.

I argue that a sort-of form of eugenics is going on right now, with the collapse of the nuclear family and one-man-to-one-woman going on. Where a few guys get all the women, and many people completely shut themselves out of the dating/mating game. And as we all know, the engineers/scientists/mathematicians/highly intelligent people don't exactly stimulate women's loins, thus hindering their chance for reproduction.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Could I have crab claws, or like two dicks?

I don't see why not

Eugenics is a very bad idea because if you're thinking of implemeting it on a purely genetic level, you're not giving any credence to other intagible factors such as environment, experience etc. I mean you need varied genetic material anyway for humainty to survive anyway.

Well, with eugenics, the environment will change.  Not immediately but in the second generation of Eugenics, the environment will have changed.  In the third, it will have changed further, etc.

We are!  I said not to take it personally.  You're just a little kooky is all.

Its all good.  I was joking.

My experience has led me to believe that smart people aren't necessarily happier.

Happiness is not the issue here.  Preventing mass starvation (into the billions) and slow death epidemics like AIDS is the issue.

[Fresh Prince]

The issue is more about resources is more about sustainable living than simply reducing the population. If you reduce the population and have fewer more competitive people seeking luxury in their life resources would be consumed at a greater rate. There's probably some economic principle to explain that.

[laesperanzapaz]

'mass' epidemics like AIDS and starvation are highly exaggerated.  i'm not kidding. seriously, look it up.


we have enough food, it's just fucking politics that prevents it from reaching the necessary places.  And smoking, heart attacks from shit foods, and war from Third World/ Second, and First World countries kill far far far more than diseases ever will.


And as someone already said:  eugenics sounds sparkly in paper, but in practice it is impossible to implement without right wing fascism or left wing communism.

Nazis tried it.  Soviets tried it.  China is still trying.


But no.

[bagofeyes]

you have shitty taste in music though. sterilisation for you.

My two favorite bands of all time are Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd. How can you criticize that? I'm also into jazz, two of my top 10 albums of all time being Kind of Blue by Miles Davis and A Love Supreme by John Coltrane. On the hip hop side of things, I favor deep, lyrical artists like Talib Kweli, Del, and Lupe Fiasco, not that manufactured club shit (although that has its place). I like a lot of electronic music like Boards of Canada, Aphex Twin, Hot Chip and Justice. I studied classical piano for 6 years. I fucking love Goldfrapp and Bjork. But on this board, none of that matters because I defend Muse (who wins Best Live Act from at least one major source every year they go on tour) and Sublime and The Red Hot Chili Peppers. Go figure.

 
There's gotta be a point where you draw the line, man.

[ToxicAdam]

I argue that a sort-of form of eugenics is going on right now, with the collapse of the nuclear family and one-man-to-one-woman going on. Where a few guys get all the women, and many people completely shut themselves out of the dating/mating game. And as we all know, the engineers/scientists/mathematicians/highly intelligent people don't exactly stimulate women's loins, thus hindering their chance for reproduction.

Actually, there is a prevailing theory that the "rise of the nerd" has caused a lot of mating between people that would have never occurred before. Socially awkward or agorophobic people have been able to meet in the workplace (Silicon Valley) or online. Some think it's the reason for the dramatic rise in autism.

[Beardo]

No wonder Ass Burgers is so common these days. 

[Joe Molotov]

No wonder Ass Burgers is so common these days. 

That, and we have the Internet so we can diagnose ourselves on Wikipedia. Hey, you know, I'm antisocial and don't get along well with others, I bet I have aspergers too!

[Beardo]

That, and we have the Internet so we can diagnose ourselves on Wikipedia. Hey, you know, I'm antisocial and don't get along well with others, I bet I have aspergers too!

You have what?

[ToxicAdam]

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/9.12/aspergers_pr.html

[Beardo]

Oh you mean Ass Burgers.

[TVC15]

40 oz to freedom was put together quite well.  i recently re-listened to it after many years of avoiding anything sublime related (including their fans! lawl), but yeah.  it was my first exposure to them and i think that it was their best work and i do find his death to be unfortunate because i would have liked to have seen what he would be doing later on, like say...now.

Fuck no.  Their most interesting period was their second album.  By their third album, they were largely eschewing the dub bent of the second in order to capitalize on more traditional songs, which leads me to think they were moving backwards.

[Flannel Boy]

I argue that a sort-of form of eugenics is going on right now, with the collapse of the nuclear family and one-man-to-one-woman going on. Where a few guys get all the women, and many people completely shut themselves out of the dating/mating game. And as we all know, the engineers/scientists/mathematicians/highly intelligent people don't exactly stimulate women's loins, thus hindering their chance for reproduction.

Actually, there is a prevailing theory that the "rise of the nerd" has caused a lot of mating between people that would have never occurred before. Socially awkward or agorophobic people have been able to meet in the workplace (Silicon Valley) or online. Some think it's the reason for the dramatic rise in autism.

While there's some assortative mating, smart people still have fewer children than dumb people.

[Madrun Badrun]

I argue that a sort-of form of eugenics is going on right now, with the collapse of the nuclear family and one-man-to-one-woman going on. Where a few guys get all the women, and many people completely shut themselves out of the dating/mating game. And as we all know, the engineers/scientists/mathematicians/highly intelligent people don't exactly stimulate women's loins, thus hindering their chance for reproduction.

Actually, there is a prevailing theory that the "rise of the nerd" has caused a lot of mating between people that would have never occurred before. Socially awkward or agorophobic people have been able to meet in the workplace (Silicon Valley) or online. Some think it's the reason for the dramatic rise in autism.

While there's some assortative mating, smart people still have fewer children than dumb people.

 and surprisingly red tomatoes are red.