Author Topic: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked  (Read 2100 times)

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Mandark

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I'm going to silently fume.

Positive Touch

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2008, 01:42:13 AM »
but you can't deny that iraq is more safe than it was before the surge
pcp

Positive Touch

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2008, 01:42:36 AM »
unless you hate the troops
pcp

max_cool

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2008, 01:48:49 AM »
but you can't deny that iraq is more safe than it was before the surge

awesome.  so all they need is a permanent outside miltary force in the country now, and we can leave.

And things would be even better if there was an after-surge, you know like earthquakes... maybe we can even add a yearly shock-and-awe that will eventually turn into an Iraqi 4th of July! :american

Mandark

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2008, 01:51:12 AM »
Yeah, it's safer because the winning side in the civil war has mostly run out of people it wants to kill or scare away from their homes.

A lot fewer Tutsis died in 1996 than in 1994, but I don't think anyone chalks that up to a brilliant new political and security strategy.

Phoenix Dark

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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2008, 02:01:33 AM »
Most Americans want to get out of the war and the "surge is working" idea is bipartisan enough not to create further bickering.  So people are claiming it worked.  Plus it is laying down the groundwork for the inevitable revising and glossing over of W's job as President.
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Mandark

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2008, 02:23:12 AM »
That would be fine and dandy if I believed that the people pushing the success of the surge actually intended to withdraw American troops rather than establish permanent basing in Iraq.

Besides which, "boy we sure did great once we switched strategies; we've got this invasion and occupation game all sussed out now!" is a meme that gets people killed down the road.

Joe Molotov

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2008, 03:01:19 AM »
Screw it, let's just pull out Saigon style, and throw Iraq under the bus.
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Eric P

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2008, 07:18:43 AM »
See it worked.  Now let's let the Russians police it for a while, and we can claim total victory.

they can have west baghdad and we can build check point ali.
Tonya

Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2008, 11:21:52 AM »
Well things have gotten better since the surge and honestly, I can't figure out why people keep arguing and bickering about that.  Can we not all at least agree Iraq has improved and hope that it gets better from here?  Its almost as if some want Iraq to contine being a chaotic warzone for political gains.  Now that the surge troops are being redeployed I think we'll know soon enough if the Iraqis have what it takes to step up to the plate.  Oh yeah and if we are keeping our troops there to assist, I want someone pressuring Iraq to pay for reconstruction efforts rather than taking money from American taxpayers, their economy is actually better than ours atm.

Oh yeah and no permanent bases in Iraq,  This isn't South Korea, Japan, or Germany and should not be treated as such.
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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2008, 11:26:08 AM »
Oh yeah and if we are keeping our troops there to assist, I want someone pressuring Iraq to pay for reconstruction efforts rather than taking money from American taxpayers,

i don't think it's the iraqi govt that needs pressuring
pcp

Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2008, 11:55:57 AM »
I just don't see them volunteering to use their own money until someone in our government whoever that may be (This president or a future one) takes a Donald Trump approach to our spending and losses there.
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siamesedreamer

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2008, 12:16:49 PM »
The surge worked. Your boy was wrong.

Get over it.

Phoenix Dark

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Mandark

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2008, 01:50:34 PM »
Depressingly Predictable Awfulness in Iraq: Part 17,483 in an ongoing series.



Well things have gotten better since the surge and honestly, I can't figure out why people keep arguing and bickering about that.




THIS is why I'm arguing and why it's important.

The rationale behind the surge was that the security from the increased troop levels would provide "breathing room" or "political space" for a peaceful reconciliation between the Iraqi factions.  The US hoped that Iraqi leaders just needed a more stable environment to get things done.

That hasn't happened.  Maliki and the UIA have decided to consolidate their power through non-democratic and often violent means.  They're now refusing any accommodation for the Sunni Awakening councils and militias, whose creations were organized and funded by the US.

It's frustrating because it was easy to see coming.  You can't create an independently armed fiefdom for an ethnic minority and expect the central government not to be threatened and you can't expect the central government to do what you want when you'll give it the same financial and military support no matter what.

What was the point of the US staying the last year and a half?  The strongest faction with the deepest ties to Iran is breaking the rules to seize power.  That couldn't happen without the miracle of American oversight?

If we're gonna bring up Obama then let's admit how prescient he was.  A year ago he was saying that the administration wasn't applying enough pressure to Iraqi leaders to accomplish the goals of the surge but that a withdrawal deadline could do that.  I'm not sure if a deadline would have forced Maliki to behave differently but we already have tons of evidence that the current strategy just allowed him to stick with a hardline position.

Brehvolution

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2008, 02:04:34 PM »
Isn't that a map on The Last Guy?
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lordmaji

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2008, 02:08:37 PM »
unless you hate the troops

 :usacry

USA!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2008, 02:11:11 PM »
i thought the surge's "success" was predicated more on using our tax dollars to pay off sunni leaders, aka the "sunni awakening" ?
duc

Van Cruncheon

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2008, 02:18:18 PM »
I think the surge's success was predicated on a Baudrillardian acceptance of hollow phrasework as reality.

well, then, NOW i support the troops! :o
duc

Mandark

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2008, 02:48:29 PM »
i thought the surge's "success" was predicated more on using our tax dollars to pay off sunni leaders, aka the "sunni awakening" ?

Yeah, or at least half of it.  That's what the "independently armed fiefdom for an ethnic minority" was meant to refer to.  I originally wrote a couple grafs summarizing the policy but it was expanding into pre-crisis Loki dimensions.

Basically two contradictory policies have been carried out during (and a bit before) the surge:

1) paying and arming local leaders in homogeneously Sunni areas like Anbar and Salah ad Din, but not mixed urban areas like Baghdad or Kirkuk

2) continuing to support the Shia-led central government without restricting its actions

The problem is the Awakenings leaders expected some long term guarantees of authority under the imprimatur of government but Maliki doesn't want them getting a foothold and figures he's powerful enough that he doesn't have to concede anything to them.

Iraq is a fractal pattern of power struggles.  Violence dropped as some of the local/regional ones got resolved but those just set the stage for conflict on a larger scale.  Worst case there's a massive outbreak of violence.  Best case is a de facto Biden plan where it's not worth it for either side to encroach on the other's sphere of power.

lordmaji

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2008, 02:55:13 PM »
:american

Amen brother!

These colors don't bleed!
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permutated

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2008, 08:20:47 PM »
Mission Accomplished!

permutated

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2008, 12:24:29 AM »
Well things have gotten better since the surge and honestly, I can't figure out why people keep arguing and bickering about that.  Can we not all at least agree Iraq has improved and hope that it gets better from here?  Its almost as if some want Iraq to contine being a chaotic warzone for political gains.  Now that the surge troops are being redeployed I think we'll know soon enough if the Iraqis have what it takes to step up to the plate.  Oh yeah and if we are keeping our troops there to assist, I want someone pressuring Iraq to pay for reconstruction efforts rather than taking money from American taxpayers, their economy is actually better than ours atm.

Oh yeah and no permanent bases in Iraq,  This isn't South Korea, Japan, or Germany and should not be treated as such.
YEAH  TALKIN LIEK A REEL CONSERVATIVE

REPBULICAN PLAN HAS WORKED ALL ALONG, NOW STOP WIT THE CRITICIZM AND LEEB MY TAXES ALONE

holy shit i just realized that rhymed
« Last Edit: August 29, 2008, 12:27:42 AM by laesperanzapaz »
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AdmiralViscen

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2008, 12:26:18 AM »
Mandark depth charged this thread.

Mandark

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #26 on: August 30, 2008, 01:23:00 AM »
Now this is back on the front page I can post without feeling shameless:  Marc Lynch and Sameer Lalwani both have good pieces up about the situation.

Lalwani points out that even Stephen Biddle and Colin Kahl, who have been pretty optimistic about US prospects in Iraq and favor continued presence there, both see Maliki's government blocking any accommodation of the Sunnis.  I think they assumed that all sides wanted a peaceful, pluralistic Iraq when each faction really wants peace on their own terms (and those terms are as much power as they can realistically maintain).


Reading this thread again it comes off a bit "I'm a smarty man" which wasn't what I was going for.  More the opposite:  I'm an interested amateur who can't read a lick of Arabic and I sussed out early on that this was going to cause problems.

It's beyond frustrating to see experts and leaders who should know better make bad decisions then watch the ensuing wreck unfold in slow motion while you can't do anything to stop it.

Maybe this is what it feels like to the people who yell at the screen during horror flicks.

AdmiralViscen

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Re: If I hear one more idiot pontificate about how the surge worked
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2008, 02:56:11 AM »
Total anal domination