Author Topic: The dying American scientific community  (Read 4940 times)

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MrAngryFace

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The dying American scientific community
« on: September 11, 2008, 03:00:25 PM »
http://michaelwann.newsvine.com/_news/2008/09/11/1853862-europe-leaps-ahead-on-physics-frontier

I've been kinda bummed science funding hasnt been discussed much. Especially considering how many scientists have been jumping ship, and the funding cuts to organizations like NASA. I know there was SUPPOSED to be a Hillary vs Obama debate about this but I never heard anything of it. I think a key indicator of a candidates stance towards scientific progress of any kind is whether or not they believe global warming is man-made.
o_0

Phoenix Dark

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2008, 03:02:17 PM »
just wait until God's Candidate 2012 gets a hand on yer science foolishness :bow
010

MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2008, 03:02:56 PM »
Hillary is 2012, so sayeth William Shatner's TekWar television series.
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DJ_Tet

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2008, 03:05:33 PM »
Hillary is 2012, so sayeth William Shatner's TekWar television series.

And Deadmeat  :-*
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2008, 03:09:13 PM »
god>tekwar

sorry but it's a scientific fact


but yea, it really sucks that the more hyper christian crazy a politician is, the more they fall in the "global warming is bullshit" category wtf. it's like they throw out all the "stewards of the earth" verses and focus on the "lol homos" verses  :-\

The argument seems to be that "if liberal scientists are wrong about evilution they must be wrong about everything else"....which makes no sense.
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MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2008, 03:10:46 PM »
Well admitting its our fault goes against their horrible 'drill baby drill' bullshit.
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Human Snorenado

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2008, 03:12:44 PM »
This is sure to improve after four years of President McMooseburger.
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2008, 03:13:01 PM »
What is this 2012 business.

Obama reelection in 2012, duh
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2008, 03:14:42 PM »
sigh drilling

The GOP is signing up voters on campus and I heard one of their distinguished mentally-challenged fellows claiming the high gas prices are a result of the dems' refusal to support drilling. I'll never understand how these low level fucks can't get it through their heads that the only people who'll benefit immediately from drilling are the oil companies and their share holders. When I hear McCain and other republicans talking about drilling I get where he's coming from because he's gonna benefit. Joe Six Pack ain't.
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MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 03:17:20 PM »
When I hear Palin talk I just see this in our future:

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MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2008, 03:19:47 PM »
Drilling on our side of the fence would probably help short term in some way. Im not educated in that area enough to refute that. HOWEVER, I do believe drilling would eliminate the, in my opinion, absolutely essential sense of urgency we need to motivate the American people to make the needed long-term change.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2008, 03:22:00 PM »
actually even the Bush administrations own studies suggest it wouldn't influence prices anytime soon (like 10+ years). it's the gas tax holiday bullshit all over again

Now, I wouldn't mind us taking advantage of our resources and looking into drilling. My problem is with the people who act like it's the solution to the problem
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MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2008, 03:23:26 PM »
Like I said, it removes the sense of urgency.
o_0

Mandark

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2008, 03:26:15 PM »
god>tekwar

sorry but it's a scientific fact


but yea, it really sucks that the more hyper christian crazy a politician is, the more they fall in the "global warming is bullshit" category wtf. it's like they throw out all the "stewards of the earth" verses and focus on the "lol homos" verses  :-\

The argument seems to be that "if liberal scientists are wrong about evilution they must be wrong about everything else"....which makes no sense.

What?

Huh?

Phoenix Dark

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2008, 03:30:19 PM »
god>tekwar

sorry but it's a scientific fact


but yea, it really sucks that the more hyper christian crazy a politician is, the more they fall in the "global warming is bullshit" category wtf. it's like they throw out all the "stewards of the earth" verses and focus on the "lol homos" verses  :-\

The argument seems to be that "if liberal scientists are wrong about evilution they must be wrong about everything else"....which makes no sense.

What?

Huh?

Month/year old posts?

I've flip flopped on global warming: I agree it's man made. I certainly don't think it's going to sink continents in a couple years like some alarmists, but there's no denying the science on what's happening right now
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MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2008, 03:31:05 PM »
Back on topic, here's something from August regarding NASA funding:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/19/politics/washingtonpost/main4361324.shtml
o_0

MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2008, 03:32:07 PM »
Oooooh found the science debate 2008 log DAR:

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=40

Edit: Cant seem to find McCain's promised answers to the 14 questions lol
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Mandark

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2008, 03:33:51 PM »
facepalm, smh, giant anime sweatdrop and all other appropriate body language, PD.


MAF: Obama said (in his book? an interview? a speech?) that even though stem cells are a big public deal, whenever he talks to researchers their main complaint is a lack of government funding in general.  I think it used to be easier back when we had to beat the ruskies.

MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2008, 03:35:50 PM »
Everything was easier back when we had to beat *INSERT ENEMY HERE*. I mean you have to consider the gravity of the actions that drove all the brilliant scientists here during WWII, and then consider the fact that this may never happen again. American REALLY got lucky in that instance, and that's what got us to the moon, and now we've squandered it so bad, and everything is so global, there's no reason for most scientists to act solely in the interest of the united states.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2008, 03:36:46 PM »
facepalm, smh, giant anime sweatdrop and all other appropriate body language, PD.


er what. I'm on the right side of the issue now and this elicits head shaking?
010

Mandark

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2008, 03:46:28 PM »
Oooooh found the science debate 2008 log DAR:

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=40

Edit: Cant seem to find McCain's promised answers to the 14 questions lol

Obama's answer about education where he uses the STEM acronym reminds me of how certain words or phrases can be signals for your larger background in an issue.

STEM is something only really used by education wonks or people who have dealt regularly with them so there's a message of "I know your issues and am familiar with them" going out.  Same way the use of the phrase LBGT signals sympathy towards gay issues.

On the subject of European scientists in America:

[youtube=425,350]QEJ9HrZq7Ro[/youtube]




PD: It's more the tone, which splits the difference between Gregg Easterbrook and Peggy Hill.

MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2008, 03:51:20 PM »
Well you have a point
Oooooh found the science debate 2008 log DAR:

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=40

Edit: Cant seem to find McCain's promised answers to the 14 questions lol

Obama's answer about education where he uses the STEM acronym reminds me of how certain words or phrases can be signals for your larger background in an issue.

STEM is something only really used by education wonks or people who have dealt regularly with them so there's a message of "I know your issues and am familiar with them" going out.  Same way the use of the phrase LBGT signals sympathy towards gay issues.

On the subject of European scientists in America:

[youtube=425,350]QEJ9HrZq7Ro[/youtube]




PD: It's more the tone, which splits the difference between Gregg Easterbrook and Peggy Hill.

I said brilliant, not moral. :lol :(
o_0

Loki

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2008, 05:18:06 PM »
Apart from the government funding angle, something which rarely gets discussed is this:

If you compensate scientists adequately, more people will become scientists.  Research scientists are some of our hardest working professionals, and possess incredible expertise, yet they are not compensated proportionately.  We like to think that we're a meritocracy where the "best and brightest" are rewarded financially, but the fact is that only those in the financial sector and business owners make any real money nowadays.  Our entire culture is arrayed against the breeding of scientists: everything from the cost/benefit matrix, to the ever-increasing anti-intellectualist sentiment, to inadequate government funding (which is partly caused by, though not reducible to, the prevailing anti-intellectualism).   

When you can only be assured of a great standard of living if you enter one or two fields, intelligent people aren't going to choose as arduous a course as becoming a research scientist.  Some will, but not as many as would otherwise.  A good portion of these intelligent people will instead seek to become "financial planners," "mutual fund managers," "stockbrokers" and similarly useless professionals.  This results in a net "brain drain" from scientific fields.     

The problem in this country is that we have a very narrow conception of "benefit."  Financial planners are compensated because the benefit they provide is tangible: you grow a portfolio by 10%, and you in turn receive a percentage of that growth.  The benefit provided by research scientists, however, is not as easily demonstrated, yet is no less real -- and certainly no less important.

This country needs more scientists, doctors, and engineers and fewer lawyers, financial planners, and MBAs.  Period.  The only people who will disagree with this are...lawyers, financial planners, and MBAs.  Shocking, I know.

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2008, 06:21:35 PM »
Well, in the end, a lot of prospective students will be looking at the salaries in the end.  Not because you want to roll in a BMW but school is out the fucking ass expensive these days.  I'm in engineering and the workload is huge to where you can only make a small amount of money, outside of internships over the summer (3 months of work will not be good enough for the remaining nine).  Where will you get the rest of the money from?  Scholarships?  Not everyone gets them, no matter how hard they work.  Grants?  If you're poor, you're good but if you're middle class and your parents refuse to give you money, then you're SOL.  The only option is loans and you will pile up a big amount.

The scientific angle doesn't work if you have $50,000+ in student loans where your salary may be around $60,000 and will remain there for some time.  Or you could take $30,000 in loans out and make $60,000 by the time you're 26 and by the time you're 30, you could be making double that.  A lot of times, people just don't think it is worth the risk and I can definitely understand why they're not going down scientific disciplines.
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MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2008, 06:25:52 PM »
I think as a scientist the last thing you want getting in the way of doing what you love is a money situation.
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Fresh Prince

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2008, 06:36:16 PM »
I doubt many people will be going into finance now with the economy the way it is.

R&D can be oursourced however I'm not sure you can outsource innovation etc. Science will always come last to the arts, business and sports; just the way it is. Luckily in Australia there's a growing population and insufficient infrastructure (in most areas and disciplines) so engineers will be needed for some time to come.

That being said studying engineering is difficult, so many abstract concepts, complicated maths. I think I heard a figure of 1 in 4 engineering students actually complete their degree.*smh*
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Loki

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2008, 06:40:00 PM »
Quote from: MAF
I think as a scientist the last thing you want getting in the way of doing what you love is a money situation.

I'm somewhat confused.  Are you agreeing that scientists aren't compensated well enough or are you suggesting that money shouldn't be a consideration since they're "doing what they love"?  If the latter, why don't we apply this line of thinking to any other field?  I'm pretty sure you're arguing for the former, but I want to be clear.

Flannel Boy

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2008, 06:45:02 PM »

Loki, most in the business world don't have the interest or the aptitude to work in the sciences. And the brightest, who have the requisite brain-power, can make so much money in the private sector (as investment bankers or lawyers for big firms, for example) that they wouldn't be swayed by moderate salary increases for research scientists.

Furthermore, we don't need less lawyers. If anything, we need at least one more.  :maf

One of my profs said she became a lawyer because she "wasn't good with numbers." This is probably the case with most law students.

MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2008, 07:11:47 PM »
Quote from: MAF
I think as a scientist the last thing you want getting in the way of doing what you love is a money situation.

I'm somewhat confused.  Are you agreeing that scientists aren't compensated well enough or are you suggesting that money shouldn't be a consideration since they're "doing what they love"?  If the latter, why don't we apply this line of thinking to any other field?  I'm pretty sure you're arguing for the former, but I want to be clear.

No no, I am saying they dont want to be high rollers, they just want to not have money hinder their pursuits. Its like me for example, I am not a scientist, but I enjoy making enough money that money is never 'an issue'. Im never sitting at my table wondering how the fuck im going to make ends meet. Granted, most people would enjoy that, but i think for scientists specifically, money is only an issue when it comes to sustaining themselves or their projects -- how much they make beyond that point is a non-issue for them.

I may have just made my point of view more confusing, not sure.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2008, 07:15:18 PM »
america hates smart people. especially smart people who remind them that they and their communities are ignorant, low-brow, consumer-driven, petty, dogmatic, and afraid.
duc

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2008, 10:48:09 PM »
Quote
The argument seems to be that "if liberal scientists are wrong about evilution they must be wrong about everything else"....which makes no sense.

huh?  why doesn't it make sense?  if you thought the powers that be in the scientific establishment had managed to hoodwink everyone on one of the core precepts of one of the most fundamental sciences for a hundred years, why wouldn't you think them capable of pulling off a comparatively minor swindle?
QED

Fresh Prince

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2008, 10:54:03 PM »
america hates smart people. especially smart people who remind them that they and their communities are ignorant, low-brow, consumer-driven, petty, dogmatic, and afraid.
This. Sometimes you just need a benevolent dictator.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2008, 11:01:46 PM by Fresh Prince »
888

Smooth Groove

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2008, 11:29:30 PM »

Loki, most in the business world don't have the interest or the aptitude to work in the sciences. And the brightest, who have the requisite brain-power, can make so much money in the private sector (as investment bankers or lawyers for big firms, for example) that they wouldn't be swayed by moderate salary increases for research scientists. 

True.  Money talks...
After my friend graduated from Duke med school, he decided to become a vascular surgeon instead of a researcher, although he loved research.  Now he's making more than half a mill every year.  He'd probably make less than 1/4 of that amount if he were working in a lab instead.

Loki

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2008, 01:23:28 AM »

Loki, most in the business world don't have the interest or the aptitude to work in the sciences.

What, you believe that the majority of people who go into finance do so because they have a genuine interest in it?  Come now, Malek -- you can't be that naive. ;)

Quote
And the brightest, who have the requisite brain-power, can make so much money in the private sector (as investment bankers or lawyers for big firms, for example) that they wouldn't be swayed by moderate salary increases for research scientists.

More people would choose to do what they truly wanted to do if the disparity in income weren't quite so great.  Not everyone desires to be obscenely wealthy; many could content themselves on, say, $150K/year even if they could be making $290K/year in a different sector provided that it was what they really wanted to do.  When you increase that gap to $65-85K versus $290K, the financial realities start to figure more prominently in the decision-making process, especially when you consider that a science PhD will likely be much older before they're even making that money, and will have more loans to pay back.

Quote
Furthermore, we don't need less lawyers. If anything, we need at least one more.  :maf

Hah, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was lumping lawyers in with the "useless" professions I mentioned :lol (which was in quotes for a reason, btw -- they're not actually useless, but both the role and the number of said professionals would be greatly reduced in my ideal world; some might not even exist, since I don't believe in the efficacy of the modern economy, but that's for another time).  I mentioned lawyers simply because there's a glut of them in the US.  Lawyers can actually be useful, unlike hedge fund managers. ;)  That doesn't mean that a sound society should view a surfeit of attorneys as a desirable condition, since that creates its own ills.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2008, 01:26:20 AM by Loki »

Flannel Boy

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2008, 02:02:35 AM »
What, you believe that the majority of people who go into finance do so because they have a genuine interest in it?  Come now, Malek -- yo

No, but they usually have even less interest in science; it's amazing how many intelligent people are science-phobic. Their lack of interest, however, is not as critical as their lack of aptitude or ability. Just because they can excel in one field doesn't mean they can excel in another. It's like bemoaning how we have too many painters and wishing that some of them would become writers. Some people could be both great painters and great writers, but I bet there's little overlap.

More people would choose to do what they truly wanted to do if the disparity in income weren't quite so great.  Not everyone desires to be obscenely wealthy; many could content themselves on, say, $150K/year even if they could be making $290K/year in a different sector provided that it was what they really wanted to do.  When you increase that gap to $65-85K versus $290K, the financial realities start to figure more prominently in the decision-making process, especially when you consider that a science PhD will likely be much older before they're even making that money, and will have more loans to pay back.

Closing the income gap significantly is unrealistic, especially in Palin's America! And let's be honest, the status gap will never be narrowed. Research scientists working in anonymity in their labs and research facilities do important work, but they will never enjoy the same status as CEO's, investment bankers, or high-powered attorneys. At least in the eyes of people that matter: women.




Fresh Prince

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2008, 02:07:32 AM »
It's a bit sad there are no real renaissance men today.
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2008, 09:49:16 AM »
It's a bit sad there are no real renaissance men today.

They're still out there.
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tiesto

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2008, 09:50:49 AM »
It's a bit sad there are no real renaissance men today.

Prole and TVC are renaissance men.  :-*
^_^

Eric P

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2008, 09:54:56 AM »
It's a bit sad there are no real renaissance men today.

Prole and TVC are renaissance men.  :-*

because they wear tights and ruffs doesn't make them renaissance men
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Flannel Boy

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2008, 10:09:35 AM »
Engaging in pederasty does not make you a renaissance man.

Eric P

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2008, 10:11:33 AM »
Engaging in pederasty does not make you a renaissance man.

no it makes you a republican
Tonya

MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2008, 12:52:25 PM »
Just an update, McCain has answered the 14 questions on Sciencedebate 2008

http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=44

It's worth it to read replies side by side because you can easily see where each candidate really invests their interests. For example in one question McCain will be more on point in regards to where funding will actually come from, while Obama may have a larger big picture general direction. In another question McCain will go on about historical significance, or personal beliefs while Obama has a step by step process for addressing the issue raised.

To McCains credit he had a lot more to say than I had expected. Too bad he's spent the last few weeks lying to me, kinda dulls the impact.
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The Fake Shemp

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2008, 12:55:30 PM »
When I hear Palin talk I just see this in our future:

(Image removed from quote.)

 :lol

I was watching that this morning!

I imagine that within a few Republican Presidents, one of them will admit they think the moon landing was faked.
PSP

Eric P

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2008, 12:56:26 PM »
i don't recognize that still

what's it from?
Tonya

The Fake Shemp

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2008, 01:02:04 PM »
The greatest B-movie of the 90s!  Escape from L.A.!

Snake Plissken:
Got a smoke?
Malloy: The United States is a non-smoking nation! No smoking, no drugs, no alcohol, no women - unless you're married - no foul language, no red meat!
Snake Plissken: Land of the free.
PSP

Eric P

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2008, 01:02:47 PM »
oh
Tonya

TVC15

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2008, 01:06:31 PM »
More people would choose to do what they truly wanted to do if the disparity in income weren't quite so great.  Not everyone desires to be obscenely wealthy; many could content themselves on, say, $150K/year even if they could be making $290K/year in a different sector provided that it was what they really wanted to do.  When you increase that gap to $65-85K versus $290K, the financial realities start to figure more prominently in the decision-making process, especially when you consider that a science PhD will likely be much older before they're even making that money, and will have more loans to pay back.


Do you really believe this?  Maybe the wizened 30 year old thinks along these lines, but a lot of people when they're young think that all it takes to be happy is money, and that they can fulfill themselves in their free time.  People make big life decisions when they are young, and everyone is dumb when they are young.
serge

MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2008, 01:11:59 PM »
The greatest B-movie of the 90s!  Escape from L.A.!

Snake Plissken:
Got a smoke?
Malloy: The United States is a non-smoking nation! No smoking, no drugs, no alcohol, no women - unless you're married - no foul language, no red meat!
Snake Plissken: Land of the free.

I fucking LOVE escape from LA
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TVC15

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #48 on: September 16, 2008, 01:12:59 PM »
I kinda wish I never quit smoking.
serge

MrAngryFace

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #49 on: September 16, 2008, 01:19:20 PM »
i'd smoke if I could, makes my heart rate go all crazy. yay serotonin
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The Fake Shemp

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2008, 01:25:06 PM »
If the world ever ends, we should start smoking American Sprits.
PSP

Crushed

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Re: The dying American scientific community
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2008, 01:30:31 PM »
I imagine that within a few Republican Presidents, one of them will admit they think the moon landing was faked.

Thanks to my time machine, I can proudly bring you...

QUOTATIONS FROM FUTURE REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTS
1) "The promise of space explorations is massively overexaggerated. Even the moon landings are disputed by many scientists."
2) "We shouldn't spend too much on a gamble like biological science. If Darwin's wild guess turns out to be wrong, then all of our funding will have been a waste. And an ever-growing group of scientists dispute the evolution."
3) "Does anybody really know what happened on 9/11? Were it really just Islamic terrorists... or a certain un-American political party, working with Islam terror? A large contingent of scientists dispute our old, 'official' story."
4) "All protection of so-called 'archaeological' sites claimed to be more than 6,000 years old is hereby revoked. Their validity is called into question due to the fact that a number of scientists now dispute the idea that the Earth is a million years old."
5) "Our ambassadors will return to the United Nations once we have proof that the Vatican is not controlling the meetings. Quite a few scientists are beginning to dispute the claim that Satan did not create the Roman Church."
wtc