Author Topic: I'm voting for Obama now. Fucking McCain wants to buy bad mortgages!! W.T.F!  (Read 5442 times)

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Beardo

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I think this is old news, but I just found out about it.

Ok I have had enough of this pseudo -socialism Mccain is trying to sell. The government should not prop up bad debts and reward the people who make bad investments. Housing prices NEED to go down so the people who didn't take bad mortgages 3 years ago can afford houses. The house bubble has to burst.

Anyway, fuck the republicans. They need to pick better candidates. Ones that actually know something about stuff. I'm voting for Obama because the republicans need to fall flat on their faces and learn a lesson.

Phoenix Dark

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BAIL OUT
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Human Snorenado

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It's not even that he wants to buy up bad mortgages, he wants to buy them at HIGHER than what they're really valued at right now.  So that way both the dumb people that got into a mortgage they couldn't afford AND the bank that made the loan to someone they knew wouldn't be able to afford it make out alright, and the taxpayers get shafted.  DUMB DUMB DUMB.  Especially when the bailout bill already allows Paulson to renegotiate the terms of the shitty mortgages to keep people in their homes.

But yeah, McCain is grasping at straws.  I expect him to promise us all 40 acres and a mule next, or perhaps a chicken in every pot.  HERBERT HOOVER II:  ELECTRIC BUGALOO!
yar

Van Cruncheon

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someone put a hazmat zone of 5 miles around mccain and quarantine his ass for six months
duc

The Fake Shemp

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Like my main sodomite said, the worst part is that McCain wants to buy them at a higher value than their worth and totally shaft the taxpayers.  I'm not necessarily renegotiating bad mortgages for home owners that fit an approved set of criteria, but McCain's idea is not only insanely socialist, but insanely stupid.

Not even the leftist, socialist unpatriotic radical Arab, Barack Obama, approves of this idea.
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Beardo

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No, people who bought these houses using ARMs that could not afford them need to be punished. Read the fucking contract and only buy what you can fucking afford. In fact our whole economic crisis could be have been avoided if everyone including the government only bought what they could afford.

The Fake Shemp

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That's an awfully naive world view.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're white from an upper middle class family.
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Beardo

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That's an awfully naive world view.  I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're white from an upper middle class family.

Cause I can read contracts and take responsibility for myself? I was an aware this was a racial or class specific attribute.

The Fake Shemp

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lol i was right
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Beardo

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Are you insinuating that non white people cannot read and that non middle class people dont take responsibility for their actions.


Phoenix Dark

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Every time I doubt the GOP's group think prowess they surprise me. The greedy rich people who caused this fucking mess are now blaming low income families and colored folk (nevermind lower income whites benefited proportionally far more than blacks on this)...and low income conservatives are eating the excuse up.

The emperor truly has no clothes
010

Beardo

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Every time I doubt the GOP's group think prowess they surprise me. The greedy rich people who caused this fucking mess are now blaming low income families and colored folk (nevermind lower income whites benefited proportionally far more than blacks on this)...and low income conservatives are eating the excuse up.

The emperor truly has no clothes

People need to be punished for living beyond their means. No matter who it is.

I would even bet that more middle income white families are going to get hurt by than than low income black families.

The Fake Shemp

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lol so white
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Beardo

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I think that we need to take steps to keep as many people in their homes as possible, but housing prices definitely need to drop. An average house should cost about 3-4 times an average person's annual income, not 10-20 times that amount. Someone making 50,000 a year should not be buying a house for $750k. $150-200k is where the sweet spot should be, given current median incomes in the U.S. Furthermore, if we could eliminate out of control housing costs while also socializing medicine, we'd have a much stronger middle class, 

lol wut?

Beardo

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How do you suggest that people who cant afford their houses stay in them?

Beardo

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I don't think that everyone should get to stay in their houses. However, I think that people in variable rate mortgages who were able to make their mortgage payments at the original interest rates, but couldn't afford the payments after the rates were increased on them should have their mortgages renegotiated at a fixed rate. Ideally, we'd just force the banks and investors to suck it up and take the lower payments, but if Uncle Sam has to step in, then that's what has to happen.
:lol Thats everyone.
Quote
If more people could A) afford to have a house of their own, and B) afford health care, then more people could be considered middle class. I think it's a pretty obvious concept.

It's not obvious please explain.


Beardo

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Housing prices won drop if people who cannot afford them get to live there for their initial teaser rate. Fuck I can afford a house at a teaser rate. Let me get a mansion.

y2kev

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I think I kind of agree with Beardo. I'm all for renegotiating mortgages but you can't renegotiate all the contracts. It's only going to sustain the aftermath of the bubble. Let's call it the placenta.

What do you do for people who don't want to stay in their homes-- aka people who bought to flip the house, invest the house, second homes, etc.
haw

Beardo

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Exactly, those people make up the majority of the ARM owners anyway. Not some poor ethnic family from the ghetto struggling to make payments on their first house.

Human Snorenado

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The problem is that no one wants to swallow the bitter pill, which is what is necessary here.  Sure people shouldn't have gotten those shitty mortgages that they wouldn't be able to afford, but if they're kicked out now the other home owners in their neighborhoods who HAVE been paying their mortgages see their home values drop.  If there was a way to punish JUST the idiots who did this it would be cool.  There's not.

Also, in defense of some of these people- it's NOT their fault that they didn't know what was being done to them.  When I go to the doctor (or if I did) I wouldn't expect my doctor to tell me that although I've only come in for a checkup, what I really need is a set of fake tits.  Plenty of people went in and instead of getting a 150k mortgage they could handle for a decent sized house, they ended up walking out with a 250k toxic mortgage time bomb given to them by an unscrupulous lender who wasn't going to be left on the hook for it, as it would just get bundled up and sold off to someone else.  The lenders and the system they worked under were the problem.
yar

recursivelyenumerable

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ok, this is getting interesting

QED

Beardo

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The only fair thing to do is to punish everyone who participated in the ARMs. The banks are being punishes (ARE THEY EVER LOL) because of all the defaults. The rest of the people need to either pay what they owe or move on to something they can afford. Yes it sucks for people who are upside down on their mortgage. But you know what, the only fair thing to do is to punish them all. Home prices have to drop. Banks need to fail and sometimes people need to get a swift kick in the pants for living outside their means.

It sucks, but its life.




Olivia Wilde Homo

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I can see both sides.  I don't like the idea of bailing out people that don't deserve to get bailed out because of their stupidity.  If I'm against wiping the asses of the Wall Street executives, why should I shed tears over some bumpkin who bought a $250,000 home on a $30,000/yr salary?  On the other hand, there's plenty of people that had all kinds of bullshit fees added (something that isn't getting any play in the media but was for a little while) and outrageous interest rates that were out of their control.  Maybe they thought they could handle 5.5% interest from 5.2% but maybe 6.5% would have broken them, not to mention the little fees added here and there.

Personally, I'm all in favor of judges readjusting interest rates and mortgage values.  Shaving off a percent might mean the people can stay in their house and the business will still make money anyway.  The idea of booting people from their homes no matter what smells of corruption, hoping someone will bail out that house (among others) with a bonus.
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Beardo

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My dad sent me this video. It's basically an explanation of the whole ARM thing.

[youtube=425,350]MoSwkCog-Ro[/youtube]

Beardo

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This guy is fucking awesome. I just realized its a 8 part series. Look what he says about freddie and fannie mac in part 6.
[youtube=425,350]IrpPsOvHUU8[/youtube]


Beardo

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[youtube=425,350]PEf2vGLyJko[/youtube]


Shit, this guy calls the stock market crash.

Van Cruncheon

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oh god, peter schiff -- another nutty rothbardian. peter's beliefs got us into this mess (research rothbardianism and the austrian school), and now he's capitalizing on the fruits of his own fucked up post-hoc economic beliefs. of course, it's predictable for the ludwig von mises set to go OOPS every time the laissez-faire bus starts to head off the cliff, but unfortunately, this time, they had alan greenspan at the wheel. :( funny how that for all of their precious psychoanalysis of markets, they have a terrible time factoring in greed.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 06:46:41 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

Human Snorenado

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Yeah, it's funny how when this shit all started Greenspan was touring around promoting his book and he refused to say that the system and the rules (or lack thereof) were at fault- it was all the greed of the people at the wheel.  LIKE YOU COULDN'T FUCKING COUNT ON THEM TO BE GREEDY, YOU DUMBASS? 
yar

Beardo

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I thought greed was the only predictable thing in the market? In fact thats what makes capitalism so great. We can always count on people to want something and try go get more money which in turn creates more capital.

Fresh Prince

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ARM's have been out for a long time and only became a liability when recently people on Wall Street realized how to exploit the system. I mean a lot of other countries have variable rate mortgages but have enough regulation to stop them being exploited.

888

Van Cruncheon

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I thought greed was the only predictable thing in the market? In fact thats what makes capitalism so greatdangerous. We can always count on people to want something at other people's and society's expense and try go get more money which in turn creates more capital social instability.

fix'd
duc

The Fake Shemp

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Prole, you simply do not understand economics - people deserved to be punished!  I will make a broad generalization about the housing market and discount all the variables, because - goddamit! - the free market works when the dirty, radical commies don't fuck with it.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
p.s. im a white child from an upper middle class family
[close]
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duckman2000

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Everything this dude posts makes me think that he's embedded in the faux reality of early college years.

Beardo

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Creating capital is not dangerous to society. In fact we would have a middle class with the capitalism.

Olivia Wilde Homo

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I thought greed was the only predictable thing in the market? In fact thats what makes capitalism so great. We can always count on people to want something and try go get more money which in turn creates more capital.

Greed ultimately corrupts.  There will always be someone that wants a little more than the other guy, so much that they will break the law.  That or do what happened now, find devices to work around regulation entirely, like credit default swaps, that basically just calls a liability an asset.  It is pretty clever but since they were unregulated, predictably, it all turned into a house of cards that is currently collapsing.

Now we're at a point in the Dow in the 90s where CDS were still being introduced and there is still tens of trillions of dollars worth of CDS still out there that could take the Dow down to the early 90s.  In this case, greed fucked everyone over from the dirt poor to the filthy rich.  No new capital was created and now it has created an atmosphere of FUD, which paralyzes initiative far more than regulation, which just makes certain actions transparent and accountable.

So I don't really agree.  Greed winds up fucking almost everyone over.  It is possible for businesses to be aggressive yet law abiding but since the Reagan days, businesses now feel free to violate whatever rule they want because the government is too paralyzed to stop anything until the very same businesses now want lucrative bailouts.
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Van Cruncheon

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Creating capital is not dangerous to society. In fact we would have a middle class with the capitalism.

i am not arguing that creating capital is dangerous. i am arguing that unchecked greed is dangerous.
duc

Brehvolution

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I can speak with experience with this sub prime shit. We bought our house a few years ago at an interest rate of 7.7% on an $85000 loan. They said it would be fixed for 3 years and then go variable. We just wanted the house. It turns out, since we bought our house in November, that we only really had 2 years 1 month of fixed rate since the rate was by CALENDAR year. Our interest boomed to 10.7% and an additional $400/month, all interest, was added to our mortgage payment. No one would re-finance us since we didn't live in our house long enough or because we couldn't put down a $4000 down payment. And now it may be too late.
Our rate has dropped with the fed cuts though I think we are still only paying $200 less than what was our peak. :'(
At least we are still here and clawing back.
©ZH

Beardo

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I thought greed was the only predictable thing in the market? In fact thats what makes capitalism so great. We can always count on people to want something and try go get more money which in turn creates more capital.

Greed ultimately corrupts.  There will always be someone that wants a little more than the other guy, so much that they will break the law.  That or do what happened now, find devices to work around regulation entirely, like credit default swaps, that basically just calls a liability an asset.  It is pretty clever but since they were unregulated, predictably, it all turned into a house of cards that is currently collapsing.

Now we're at a point in the Dow in the 90s where CDS were still being introduced and there is still tens of trillions of dollars worth of CDS still out there that could take the Dow down to the early 90s.  In this case, greed fucked everyone over from the dirt poor to the filthy rich.  No new capital was created and now it has created an atmosphere of FUD, which paralyzes initiative far more than regulation, which just makes certain actions transparent and accountable.

So I don't really agree.  Greed winds up fucking almost everyone over.  It is possible for businesses to be aggressive yet law abiding but since the Reagan days, businesses now feel free to violate whatever rule they want because the government is too paralyzed to stop anything until the very same businesses now want lucrative bailouts.
Whats your solution?

Beardo

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Back on topic. If that Peter Schiff guy was so accurate at predicting all of this two years ago why should we not listen to him now? It seems like he is the only one telling us that things wont be ok unless we bit the bullet.

good luck, zero.  even tho you are a dirty sony fan ;)
Crm

Brehvolution

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good luck, zero.  even tho you are a dirty sony fan ;)
:-*
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Whats your solution?

Capitalism with government oversight.  Some harsher criminal penalties for embezzling and other white collar crimes.  Government legislation that will make it harder for businesses to get bailed out, which will include things like controlling benefits for executives (aka, no CEO can ask for a bailout and then make $50 million a year).  Also pay off the surplus with $300 billion a year payments.  The number will vary, based on economic performances.

This should keep corrupt businesses in check but still have plenty of opportunity for the free markets to operate.
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Van Cruncheon

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Back on topic. If that Peter Schiff guy was so accurate at predicting all of this two years ago why should we not listen to him now? It seems like he is the only one telling us that things wont be ok unless we bit the bullet.

lotsa folks from different schools of economic thought -- including paul krugman on the other end -- were saying the same things. just because he can read the past doesn't mean he can fix the future. this is new territory.
duc

Tabasco

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I too have bailed on McCain.  He is just flat out wrong on too many issues.  But I have yet to grasp the evilbore illuminatti's breakdown of things.  Are you guys saying people didn't sign on for loans they knew they couldn't pay for?  I have no doubt that some people were misled, but what is your proposed solution?  Who is going to pay for all this government debt?  Obama's plan is only slightly less distinguished mentally-challenged, b/c he still plans on increased spending, and even the wonderful and just NYT and CNN have questioned whether his tax hikes on the wealthy can pay for all that.

Van Cruncheon

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no, we aren't saying that at all, and we aren't letting those people off the hook. but i see no point in blaming the victims, no matter how stupid and petty they were, and prefer to blame the defrauders -- the folks who invented credit default swaps and ripped apart the post-depression regulatory framework in the name of massive wealth accrual -- and bring laws and regulation to bear to prevent such abuses in the future. as for a bailout, i'm not a fan of bailing out the homeowners, but i do -- with serious reservations -- support the fed extending credit lines and insuring loans to kickstart the lending machinery so businesses and banks can do their business thang again.

this isn't about acorn or the cra or stupid homeowners or greed on main street. this is about gross deregulation in the name of greed on wall street, and idiotic laissez-faire theory-to-implementation -- a sort of intellectual equivalent to the neocon's use of iraq as a playground for their ideas of government, only with business and banking. it should be an abject lesson that the notion of a free market is too simple and stupid to circumscribe human economic behaviors, and all the austrian reductionist thinking and number shuffling won't change that.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 12:12:54 AM by Professor Prole »
duc

Mandark

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Back on topic. If that Peter Schiff guy was so accurate at predicting all of this two years ago why should we not listen to him now? It seems like he is the only one telling us that things wont be ok unless we bit the bullet.

I'll see your two years ago and raise to six years ago.

Quote from: Daniel Davies, in his second blog post ever
Lots of economists more prominent than myself, such as Wynne Godley, and Stephen Roach, are most terribly worried about the following state of affairs:

The American consumer is pretty much all that's holding up the entire world economy at the moment. This is because final demand has to come from investment or consumption, and nobody appears to be in the mood to invest. Meanwhile, the Japanese don't care to (deflation and recession), the Europeans don't dare to (an ECB more worried about credibility than sensible anticyclical monetary policy), so mad dogs and Americans have to go down to the shopping mall.

Which wouldn't be a problem, except that, as far as we can tell, the American consumer is basically only still spending because he thinks that magic beans grown on the Internet will pay for everything. The strong suspicion is that when the Yanks look under the bed and discover that all of their magic Internet stock market money has turned back into rotting leaves, they're going to feel a little bit embarrased (and broke), and stop buying goods from Asia with money borrowed from Europe, a process which doesn't look like it would be enough to keep the world going but in fact is. And given that the stock market's been performing pretty badly these days, and is beginning to appear on the cover of USA today, lots of people are beginning to worry that the day of reckoning might be at hand. Which would obviously, leave us in the shit.

This is the doctrine of the "wealth effect", and if you can dig up a few factoids and linear regressions to illustrate it and avoid using the word "shit", you can make a quite decent living as a pundit by repeating the paragraph above. On the other hand, if you had been placing bets on a US double-dip recession so far, you'd have lost them, because Alan Greenspan and his merry gang at the Fed have a solution to this problem. Basically, the solution's pretty simple and it involves screwing interest rates down to the floor until mortgage rates follow them down to Low Low Prices levels, and pointing out to the Great American Consumer that it's "Bye-Bye, Magic Stock Market Bubble Money!" but "Hello, Magic Housing Market Bubble Money!". Marvellous.

Cleverer readers at this point will be formulating an objection. The objection goes along the lines of:

"Yeah, yeah, laughing boy, but what happens when the housing bubble bursts then?"

Which is a damn good question to ask, particularly since the official policy of the Federal Reserve appears to be "hmmm yeh, never thought of that, I suppose we'd be kind of fucked".

Lots of economists and financial types acknowledged the housing bubble years ago.  The people who ridiculed them as fearmongers were 99% on the right side of the political spectrum.

What caught most people by surprise was the degree to which securitization, tranching, and debt insurance allowed shaky assets to acquire AAA ratings, and the massive moral hazard it created.

Van Cruncheon

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it's the "moral hazard" bit that the chicago/austria crowd really don't like to acknowledge, because it suggests that regulation and extra-financial government bodies might be necessary, and that even business might be something more than numbers.
duc

Mandark

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The Chicago school, forever cursed by physics-envy, likes to assume a "frictionless economy" where every person is a perfectly rational maximizer of utility and there are no information or transaction costs.

The freedom to dice up and trade derivative financial products without regulation was meant to improve the flow of information (price signals! efficient markets theory!) but instead it made it possible for people to obfuscate the actual value (or lack thereof) of what they were selling.

Human Snorenado

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Hell, in 2005 *I* told a co-worker that the housing bubble would burst and it would create a domino effect of financial devastation.  I also told him that the shitty, "let's gut regulations" economic policies of Republicans is what got us here.  And I'm just some idiot without a college degree.  This was all in reference to why he had made a mistake in buying a house as an investment, and why he shouldn't have voted a straight Republican ticket in 2004.

Fast forward to 2008.  The value of his house has dropped almost 20% and he's still gonna vote a straight Republican ticket.  Won't talk about why but it's fairly obvious- he's from South Carolina and thought Strom Thurmond was "a great American".  What is it that they say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?  Oh yeah.  They call that "insanity".
yar

Human Snorenado

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The Chicago school, forever cursed by physics-envy, likes to assume a "frictionless economy" where every person is a perfectly rational maximizer of utility and there are no information or transaction costs.

The freedom to dice up and trade derivative financial products without regulation was meant to improve the flow of information (price signals! efficient markets theory!) but instead it made it possible for people to obfuscate the actual value (or lack thereof) of what they were selling.

One of the few things that I dislike about Obama is that he's tight with some Chicago school folks, since he taught Constitutional law there and all.
yar

Mandark

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Hey, you know why McCain's plan is such crap that it's instantly derided by all quarters?  Just like the gas tax holiday?

It's cause McCain is trying to propose a government plan to intervene in the market and create rules in a way which will improve the lives of working and middle class citizens.  This is something he and the people around him have absolutely no experience doing, something which they have derided as impossible for decades.

So it's no surprise they're screwing the pooch.  You might as well as a Scientologist to diagnose someone's psychological problems and prescribe medication.


One of the few things that I dislike about Obama is that he's tight with some Chicago school folks, since he taught Constitutional law there and all.

scorcho (shouldn't he be posting here now?) brought this up on GAF a while back.  I linked to these two pieces about Obama's fondness of behavioral economics, which is basically an evidence-based challenge to some of the Chicago school's underlying assumptions.  Also there's this interview with the WSJ on economic issues and this speech (back in March!) on the need to re-establish financial regulation.

I do think he's constrained by the limits of economic discussion in the US (why he's not proposing a single-payer health system), but he's not apt to praise the market's inherent goodness the way Republicans and some DLC blue dogs will.

Tabasco

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Of course we all want to see the guys who did all this brought to justice, but getting them won't get us out of the crisis.  

My biggest concern is the moral hazard.  Everyone now thinks it is the govt's job to save them?  Go ahead and build a house in a fault zone and not get earthquake insurance.  Govt will bail you out if one hits.  Can your legislature not balance its budget?  Don't want to issue bonds that offer returns to offset loss of investor faith?  Govt will get you a loan no problem?

And I still don't see how people who are defaulting on their mortgages are victims.  Unless the guy who got your signature did so by fraud, you aren't a victim.  You are just someone who signed a contract you can't make good.  If the retort is "that's b/c u r white" or whatever, does that mean that going forward, contracts with poor/black parties are not always valid?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 12:57:34 AM by Tabasco »

Van Cruncheon

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i have no idea what you're on about. first of all, your "moral hazard" is just a slippery slope argument, and hardly indicative of anything.

the defaulters are victims because a) the government/fed, through deregulation, allowed lenders to create and exploit the shady schemes that created these "opportunities," b) the lenders themselves lied to people and bamboozled them (and it is both naive and stupid to expect folks to understand the terms; fuck, i only barely figured it out myself during three grueling weeks of home purchasing six years ago, and i'm a smart summabitch); and c) wall street speculated on, bundled up, faux-insured, and performed all sorts of "numbers" gaming risk hijinks with these toxic mortgages. arguing that grandma shoulda done more research and read the "fine print" and known more about these elaborate schemes is hatefully disingenuous, and very typical of the republican "blame the victim" mentality. couldn't figure out how you were getting screwed in 50 pages of mortgage contracts, and made the human mistake of getting starry-eyed over the prospect of living out an erstwhile "american dream" of homeownership? fuck you! GET IN THE GUTTER.

:rolleyes

but we both digress.

again, this crisis didn't come about because poor/irresponsible people GOT these home loans and credit, it is because lenders and speculators were allowed to use these risky mortgages as elaborate personal casinos. this is because of DEREGULATION.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 01:29:25 AM by Professor Prole »
duc

y2kev

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I can speak with experience with this sub prime shit. We bought our house a few years ago at an interest rate of 7.7% on an $85000 loan. They said it would be fixed for 3 years and then go variable. We just wanted the house. It turns out, since we bought our house in November, that we only really had 2 years 1 month of fixed rate since the rate was by CALENDAR year. Our interest boomed to 10.7% and an additional $400/month, all interest, was added to our mortgage payment. No one would re-finance us since we didn't live in our house long enough or because we couldn't put down a $4000 down payment. And now it may be too late.
Our rate has dropped with the fed cuts though I think we are still only paying $200 less than what was our peak. :'(
At least we are still here and clawing back.
zero, i am obligated by decree of master ken to offer you and your family a space under my bed if you need it. it's on risers so i think you can probably fit any children/animals you have on top of you if they're not fat.
haw

Tabasco

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Hmmm  I thought Dems liked to accuse Republicans of trying to find simple answers to complex problems.  I think there was/is more going on than deregulation.  Surely you see some problems with the way the Democrats handled Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac?

Mandark

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Moral hazard would be a problem with McCain's proposal, but it's not a necessary symptom of any crisis intervention by the state.  People aren't going to make decisions thinking "well, the government will bail me out if there's another once-a-century financial collapse, so I *will* sign up for this credit card!"

Besides, the point I was trying to make earlier was that moral hazard already entered the picture without Uncle Sam's help.  Ideally mortgage lenders have a giant incentive to only make loans which are likely to be paid back: the lenders are the ones getting paid back, and in the case of defaults the ones getting stiffed.

Once they're able to convert their loans into opaque financial products, "insure" them, get them rated AAA, and sell them, the lenders are no longer on the hook and feel free to make as many loans as possible, screw the credit evaluation of the home buyer.

And really, we should expect the lendersto keep the terms of a loan sane much more than a potential buyer.  The lenders are in the business of home loans.  They have a ton of specially trained  employees tasked with making these decisions.  Between the lender and the buyer the balance of resources, expertise, information, and experience is absolutely, unquestionably, massively assymetrical.

The lender is going to know what each line of the fine print means, both in terms of federal/state law and the likely practical consequences.  They'll know what situations are likely to arise in the course of a mortgage and how best to turn those to their own advantage.  Every home mortgage negotiation is a professional vs. an amateur, and it's not like there are feasible options for homeownership in our society that don't involve dealing with a large institution and a lot of legalese.


Besides which, there are practical arguments against letting all the people with unaffordable mortgages take a beating.  Foreclosures and evictions have a lot of negative externalities, and if you get them en masse you can wind up with some fairly ugly situations.

Tabasco

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I agree with you about not letting that happen.  Any sane borrower, who now owes possibly 100k more than his home is worth, would walk away.  That would be awful for everyone if that happened, as you said, en masse.

Look, I don't really follow politics all that much.  I try to not get worked up about things I have no control over.  But this economic stuff is kind of hard to ignore.

I just don't want the govt to open it's checkbook to a bunch of dumb shit, like McCain's terrible plan.  I know both California and NY are asking the feds to give them a loan b/c they can't raise money in a tight credit market.  And that's not true.  They can issue bonds.  But in these times, they are going to have to offer a high rate of return to coax that money out of scared investors.  It's not the responsibility of the rest of us to enable CA and NY's shitty governance.

And under Drinky's broad definition of victim, why aren't people in Iowa victims?  Their property values didn't skyrocket, only to crash.  They aren't living under onerous mortgages.  But they've got to help pay off the huge debt now.  And they've potentially had their 401ks/IRAs see huge losses.  So now they have to delay retirement.  Why not help them out?

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
  • Banned
where did i advocate rescuing the victims? i'm just not putting the blame on them, but i'm also not rushing to salve their problems with more money. geez!
duc

Tabasco

  • Member
my bad.  i guess all the big words confused me  :-[

Mandark

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We shouldn't throw money at the people who made the worst decisions without thinking through the consequences (a la McCain's new plan) but neither should our first instinct be "these people ought to be punished!"

Luckily, this mess is so damn big that we'll have plenty of time to discuss how to mitigate each of the myriad problems it causes.  Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.