Author Topic: Watchmen thread (omggg)  (Read 1760 times)

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Phoenix Dark

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Watchmen thread (omggg)
« on: October 26, 2008, 11:27:02 PM »


I wound up reading almost have of it last night. Pretty amazing to put it lightly. I entered with very little exposure to the graphic novel; the first time I heard about it was maybe 9 years ago in a History of Comics book I had but at the time the short synopsis didn't catch my eye. Then a few months ago I saw the trailer for the movie, which got me interested despite the ugly costumes, heh. In short I was able to not only be severely late to the party but also totally spoiler free with little knowledge on the story.

Anyway having started reading it I must say, it's definitely one of the best things I've picked up in a long time.

-I'm really liking the way the story is told from multiple POVs/flashbacks. It reminds me of Lost actually
-Also the files/excerpts at the end of each issue are great. The Dr. Manhattan one could be a fucking short story and be stunning by itself
spoiler (click to show/hide)
-Alternative history woohoo. I've binged over many WWII alternative history books and came up with some of my own (horrible) short stories, but the thought of a Nixon second (and third) term never crossed my mind. Not to mention a prolonged Vietnam conflict with a victorious conclusion.
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I like the variety of the writing, thanks to a group of different characters with different personalities and psychological make up. From the almost noir-ish writing for Rorschach (who kinda reminds me of Travis Bickle from Taxi Driver) to the abstraction of Dr. Manhattan. And all this is vividly brought to life by some great art, with gritty coloring/inking.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Comedian is (was) badass, and I can't wait to find out what led to his death and also what led to his disillusionment, although I have an idea. Rorschach is pretty fuck awesome as well. And I want to see more Hooded Justice
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« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 02:26:25 PM by Thanks But No Thanks »
010

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 11:54:50 PM »
I ended up reading almost all of it in a single night as well.

I think I like it, but it kinda strikes me as the Citizen Kane of comic books.  As in everybody agrees that it is fantastic and wonderful, yet if you ever asked someone "What movie do you want to watch tonight?" they would almost never answer, "Citizen Kane".

Hopefully I'll get a little more out of a second reading -- I must confess that I skipped over all the "Supplemental Materials" because they seemed a bit dull.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2008, 12:01:22 AM »
The supplemental materials I've read so far were very interesting. I mentioned the Dr. Manhattan one already, but the Nite Owl one interested me simply from a comic mythology perspective. As Michael Chabon would say, the question of a hero's creation/origin is not "what" or "how"...it's WHY. Yet with Watchmen (well, Nite Owl so far, dunno about the others) the why isn't driven by guilt or something heroic. It's almost selfish and envious really, which is kinda fascinating to me
010

Greatness Gone

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2008, 12:17:05 AM »
One thing I liked about this book is how incredibly pathetic all of the "heroes" are. It really caught me off guard after only reading comics about omgamazing special people with powers that overcome everything and anything in their way.

I'll go in-depth about it when you're done with it.

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2008, 12:27:20 AM »
If anything reading the book made me realize what a stupid idea it was to make a Watchmen movie.  The characters don't have any special powers - they are just costumed vigilantes.  Not to say that the movie won't be good, but people don't wanna see a superhero movie where there is nothing amazing going on.  The whole thing strikes me as financial suicide.  A slick marketing campaign might yield a good first weekend box office, but word of mouth will tank it.

Greatness Gone

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2008, 12:33:09 AM »
This thing has had 12 part HBO series written all over it since forever. I'll still see the movie and tbh, I think it's going to be decent, but no Citizen Kane of superhero movies. This being better than The Dark Knight is a fucking lol idea right now.

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2008, 12:34:37 AM »
I don't see anything surpassing The Dark Knight anytime soon
010

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2008, 12:46:22 AM »
I think all the super-slo-mo shots of punches and roundhouses kind of misses the point, doesn't it?  These people are supposed to be kind of old and pathetic.

Ironically, it was the first cool Watchmen trailer that inspired me to finally pick up and read the graphic novel that had been sitting in a closet for 2 years.

TVC15

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2008, 02:26:18 AM »
Read From Hell next.  It's my favorite Alan Moore.  I am obsessed with the Victorian era, though.
serge

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2008, 02:29:50 PM »
From Hell? I might pick it up this weekend after mid terms.

010

MyNameIsMethodis

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2008, 02:33:21 PM »
Don't ever read that one Graphic Novel Moore did involving Alice in Wonderland, Dorothy, and some other story bitches having a lesbian scene and talking about fucking characters in their respective universes. It's shitty and was banned for being child erotica.
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TVC15

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2008, 02:37:15 PM »
Hasn't been banned anywhere as far as I know.  I dig it, but I'm not sure I would recommend it.  Has gorgeously drawn art, and not just because there's lots of filthy sex.  It's got style.
serge

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2008, 02:42:14 PM »
Lesbian scenes?  :-X

010

TVC15

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2008, 02:44:33 PM »
Lesbian scenes?  :-X



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Girls  (work safe, fyi)

He talks about it some here, iirc (I think this is the interview I'm thinking of.  Don't have the time to read it.  Any interview with Moore is worth reading anyway.):

http://www.avclub.com/content/node/51180 (some nsfw images from the comic)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 02:58:36 PM by TVC 15 »
serge

BobbyRobby

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2008, 11:09:00 PM »
On the back of one of the copies of Watchmen I lent out, there was a quote from one of the creators of LOST saying it was the best piece of fiction created, so you can assume they were no doubt influenced by it when creating the show.

Himu

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2008, 08:55:37 AM »
Throw in another thing PD will act like he's an expert on once he's finished reading it.

I expect a Rorscach avatar within a week along with a name change.
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TakingBackSunday

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2008, 09:13:04 AM »
That Lost Girls art looks horrendous.
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Eric P

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2008, 09:21:19 AM »
Don't ever read that one Graphic Novel Moore did involving Alice in Wonderland, Dorothy, and some other story bitches having a lesbian scene and talking about fucking characters in their respective universes. It's shitty and was banned for being child erotica.

it's not shitty

it's just not very good.

from hell is my favorite moore work.  dense, dense, dense, dense
Tonya

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2008, 02:52:30 PM »
Throw in another thing PD will act like he's an expert on once he's finished reading it.

I expect a Rorscach avatar within a week along with a name change.

I'm leaning more towards a Dr Manhattan crotch crop avatar

smh @ the most powerful man in the universe having such a small dick
010

patrickula

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2008, 03:17:18 PM »
 :lol
He could make it bigger if he wanted  8)

I think From Hell is Moore's best work, though Watchmen is probably my favorite (or maybe Top Ten for pure enjoyment).
Lost Girls isn't too great, but no it's not terrible.  It's pretty weird and uneven and I'm not sure I'd recommend it to anyone but a Moore superfan (like myself) or someone really interested in the subject matter... which is often not all that titillating in execution anyway.  It's not all that successful as pornography or as a piece of fiction up to the standards of some of his other work, though there are some interesting bits.  A lot of the ideas/concepts can be pulled from interviews probably, Moore interviews are sooo good.

It's too bad Brought to Light and Miracleman aren't in print, they're great :'(
« Last Edit: October 28, 2008, 03:23:13 PM by patrickula »

Howard Alan Treesong

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2008, 03:26:12 PM »
I just noticed that the smiley in the OP is reversed :lol

I guess it's 12:10 :P

Kid Miracleman is one of my favorite villains ever. He's like Agent Smith only not a fucking pussy.

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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2008, 03:45:16 PM »
spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm at the part where Nite Owl and Rorschach are speeding to Viedt's secret layer in Antarctica.
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This is truly amazing on every level. Perhaps my favorite "moment" so far was the entire psychoanalysis of Rorschach, as well as him getting captured/set up in the first place. The revelation that he was the sandwich board end-of-the-world guy threw me off; I sort of expected that dude to be involved in the murders of the heroes, given his proximity to nearly every murder (or funeral). Without spoiling shit, what do you guys think about that? Was it simply an "alter ego" for Rorschach, a way for him to publically express his view on society?
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010

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2008, 10:16:20 PM »
I always thought Miracleman would be a great Wachowski Bros. trilogy.
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Joe Molotov

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2008, 10:25:05 PM »
smh @ the most powerful man in the universe having such a small dick

It was a choice between Fat Man and Little Boy, and he chose poorly.  :-\
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Greatness Gone

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2008, 10:33:17 PM »
Manhattan should have grown his penis and testicles to whale size and drowned the world

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (omg)
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2008, 02:26:08 PM »
Finished it this morning while I was supposed to be studying for an exam. Worth it. Hell last night after I finished #11 I had to leave the room and study, just so I didn't get tempted  :lol
spoiler (click to show/hide)
While the final confrontation and Veidt's initial exposition were pretty awesome...the plot kinda struck me as a bit too crazy. If you're going to introduce the suspense of belief with nuclear experiments creating a god man, or a mere mortal catching bullets...why resort to the mass creation of a fake alien by a bunch of writers and artists? The motive was definitely interesting...but come on, seriously? Why not just go full distinguished mentally-challenged fellow and introduce a real alien. But like I said, ultimately this odd choice was saved by Veidt's ultimate plan. Finally, a mastermind "villain" who takes Nike's advice: just do it. For awhile I thought hmm, maybe Nite Owl and Rorschach can stop him. Nope.  :lol

That being said, the odd spaghetti monster plot was totally redeemed by the last page with the journal being found, and the stained shirt metaphor: the world is not saved because man is truly not saved - the clock has merely been reset. Nothing ever ends :/

And that seemed to be foreshadowed in the awesome pirate comic Bernard was reading. And on that note, I loved the exchange between the psychiatrist's wife and the white Bernard, after which he says what's the point of being nice if ultimately it doesn't matter - and then of course before being obliterated he winds up trying to protect the black Bernard, a parent-like gesture of caring that in real world terms doesn't matter (they still die) but is important nonetheless
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010

TVC15

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Re: Watchmen thread (no spoilers)
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2008, 02:27:28 PM »
Now do you understand, PD, why a lot of us are cool with aspects of the ending being changed in the movie?
serge

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2008, 02:29:34 PM »
Yea definitely. It seems like it wouldn't be hard to replace that particular aspect of the "masterplan" with something more concrete.
010

Reb

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2008, 02:30:49 PM »
For some reason I made a full circle, and I now prefer the original ending again.

The more I think about it, the more awesome it is in all it's absurdness.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
Think about, if that would actually happen, it would be so mind blowing nobody would doubt it. A fucking huge alien killing thousands, everybody would piss his pants.
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« Last Edit: October 29, 2008, 02:32:49 PM by Rebiak »
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2008, 02:35:51 PM »
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I'm gonna try to avoid spoilers on how the movie ends, but I do know the journal is found at the end
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I mean, if he could take a dead psychic's brain and turn it into a super weapon why couldn't he create a real alien. I agree with Rebiak about the likelihood of the plot working regardless of how absurd it seems but I just feel something more awesome could have been thought up
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010

Reb

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2008, 02:37:24 PM »
The movie ending is less awesome, but also less absurd. Which some people think is better.
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TVC15

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2008, 02:39:48 PM »
The ending to the graphic novel is just anticlimactic.  With everything leading up to that climax, it's just like, "that's it?  This isn't even the most efficient way he could have done this."
serge

Reb

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2008, 02:41:33 PM »
I don't feel the movie is going to fix that, by making those changes.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2008, 02:41:57 PM »
I don't see how a movie could do this justice though. Seems like a HBO miniseries would work better than a 2 and a half hour film. And I wonder how it'll do at the box office. 300 was balls to the wall action as was Sin City, and if people go in expecting those types of films they may be disappointed.
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patrickula

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2008, 03:28:25 PM »
spoiler (click to show/hide)
I'm fine with the ending in the comic.  It's bizarre and improbable but so is a lot of other stuff in the book (Dr. Manhattan, Bubastis, Veidt's Antarctic base, the magically floating owlship).  Similarly to other stuff in the book, it also serves as a piece of the satire of the traditional superhero comic.  The villains often have some extra bizarro plan, it just happens to work in this case (maybe).

On the other hand, I don't think the monster is necessarily the strong point of the book, but everything surrounding it at Veidt's base is great.

What do you think would have been more effective TVC? I can't think of anything though maybe the execution could have been more plausible.  Better pointing out that psychics and genetic engineering exist in the world would probably have helped.  If you're trying to bring two earthly superpowers together, and an extraterrestrial threat might do it.
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Himu

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2008, 05:25:41 PM »
A movie couldn't do it justice probably, but it'd still be nice to experience I think. So long as it's not awful.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2008, 12:14:01 AM »
I don't see how a movie could do this justice though. Seems like a HBO miniseries would work better than a 2 and a half hour film. And I wonder how it'll do at the box office. 300 was balls to the wall action as was Sin City, and if people go in expecting those types of films they may be disappointed.

IF I HEAR THIS HBO MINISERIES 'IDEA' ONE MORE TIME
vjj

Joe Molotov

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2008, 12:25:24 AM »
Is there any nerdy property that nerds think wouldn't WORK BETTER AS AN HBO MINISERIES?  :lol Dark Tower, Song of Fire and Ice, I'm sure some people are still hoping HBO will step up to bat for Transformers.
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The Fake Shemp

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2008, 12:27:22 AM »
Yes.

Garfield.
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Joe Molotov

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2008, 12:29:10 AM »
Just imagine though, HBO could adapt that one Halloween sequence where Garfield dies, OMG it would be super dark and awesome!
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TVC15

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2008, 02:56:10 AM »
Just imagine though, HBO could adapt that one Halloween sequence where Garfield dies, OMG it would be super dark and awesome!

If I were insanely rich and insanely insane, I would pay David Lynch 100 million American pesos to do this.  Since it will take me a bit of time to get insanely rich and insanely insane, I am factoring in that the United States will have been overtaken and retitled United States 2: Mexican Boogaloo and we will have adopted our true forefathers' currency.
serge

cool breeze

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2008, 02:58:11 AM »
showtime is probably slitting it's wrist right now

chronovore

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2008, 10:57:08 AM »
Just imagine though, HBO could adapt that one Halloween sequence where Garfield dies, OMG it would be super dark and awesome!

Also, we'd hear Odie say "cocksuckers." That would rule.

Crushed

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Re: Watchmen thread (omggg)
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2008, 11:08:15 AM »
Damn it, I need to read this.

My brother-in-law had this and a bunch of other books, supplementary material, and histories of comics at their house in New Orleans, but I never found the time to look at it.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
He actually did his dissertation (I think) on the transfer of intellectual properties through different media, and decided to use comic book movies as his subject. I helped out over the summer a few years ago by going through box office sales on IMDb and putting together a spreadsheet of various other data.
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