SERIOUS GAMES JOURNALIST NETWORK OF PRETENSION Debate is Live.

[Tabasco]

http://shawnelliott.blogspot.com/2008/12/commencing-countdown.html

Subject: You're invited...
to participate in an email-based symposium on the practice and politics of writing game reviews.

Categories:
Review Scores
Reader Backlash
Reviews in the Age of Social Media
Reviews in the Mainstream Media
Casual, Indie, and User-Generated Games
Review Ethics
Reviews vs. Criticism
Evolving the Review
Optional: Response to Symposium Readers

Needs more Vestal and Erickson


title stolen from http://www.snappygamer.com/2008/12/02/the-problem-with-games-journalism-part-one/

[Sho Nuff]

Oh my

[Human Snorenado]

Reader backlash could be interesting.

They should just do that whole discussion on GTAIV and how they all failed to do their jobs.

The line-up's pretty good. A healthy mix of indie and big name journos.

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A FUCKING "VIDEOGAME JOURNALIST"!  That's like saying you're a "corporate waste disposal technician" when you're a janitor for a Fortune 500 company.  It's bullshit.

[dammitmattt]

Needs more Vestal and Erickson

They're not the same person?

[littlemathletics]

Honestly, I'm kinda bored of all this stuff. It's great that people care about furthering games writing, but it's never going to change the fact that most people couldn't give a fuck about anything other than the score at the bottom.

[dammitmattt]

Honestly, I'm kinda bored of all this stuff. It's great that people care about furthering games writing, but it's never going to change the fact that most people couldn't give a fuck about anything other than the score at the bottom.

It's a good thing I'm not most people.  I'm still interested.

I love reviews, but I think most of them are shit.  They will only get better when more truly talented people/writers take a swing at it.  As it is, most reviewers are game nerds first, gamestop clerks second, and writers a distant third.

[tiesto]

WTF is a "Hip Hop Activist"?

[Bocsius]

People that think about "games journalism" for more than five seconds in a given year

(If you're employed in that, um, industry, I'll grant you another five seconds to make it fair.)

[littlemathletics]

Honestly, I'm kinda bored of all this stuff. It's great that people care about furthering games writing, but it's never going to change the fact that most people couldn't give a fuck about anything other than the score at the bottom.

It's a good thing I'm not most people.  I'm still interested.

I love reviews, but I think most of them are shit.  They will only get better when more truly talented people/writers take a swing at it.  As it is, most reviewers are game nerds first, gamestop clerks second, and writers a distant third.

It's hard for people like that to break in, though. I worked a little with Shawn while he was features editor at 1Up, and it sounded like they were only really interested in top 5s and the like, really. Hard to put intelligent shit out there when you're cockblocked by upper management at the big sites. Maybe I'm just silly and jaded, though.

[Human Snorenado]

THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS A FUCKING "VIDEOGAME JOURNALIST"!  That's like saying you're a "corporate waste disposal technician" when you're a janitor for a Fortune 500 company.  It's bullshit.

I don't agree.
There are music journos, why can't there be game journos?

Because video games, as much as I love and enjoy them, will never, ever, ever approach the artistic impact that music has.  And if you say otherwise, you're lying to yourself.

[Crushed]

"Are you happy with your game?"
Yes.

"What influenced your game?"
something in my office

"Why did you do this with your game?"
i thought it worked better

"Do you think gamers will be happy with your game?"
i hope so

"Are you happy with gamers being happy with your game?"
yeah

"What will your next game be like?"
something different but still the same

"Did you ever think of using (current trend) in your game?"
yeah but it didn't really fit

"Do you think you'll be happy with your next game?"
i think so

"Thank you for your time."
you're welcome



i just wrote 80% of all "gaming journalism" interviews

[Human Snorenado]

And you could hit the David Jaffe 1% if you threw in a "fuck" or three.

[demi]

"Things are shaping up to be a great game. We can't wait!"

[dammitmattt]

Journalism isn't particularly concerned with artistic impact in the music field either, though. I think the problem is that most of the games press we see is the equivalent of music press like Smash Hits, NME, Billboard, etc. Fundamentally, there is intelligent commentary that can be made about videogames, but it hasn't bubbled up because the field is so young, particularly as it seems to have collided with the Internet and blog culture in its most formative years.

The death of gaming print media doesn't help at all, either.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I just hate the reviews where the writer feels the need to talk about his or her life in the review.  That or use inside jokes that nobody really gives a fuck about except for the staff and hardcore creepers.

I still am haunted by Tim Rogers' shitty Metal Gear Solid 2 review.

[Human Snorenado]

Journalism isn't particularly concerned with artistic impact in the music field either, though. I think the problem is that most of the games press we see is the equivalent of music press like Smash Hits, NME, Billboard, etc. Fundamentally, there is intelligent commentary that can be made about videogames, but it hasn't bubbled up because the field is so young, particularly as it seems to have collided with the Internet and blog culture in its most formative years.

You know, the thing is though that I just don't care about any so called "intelligent commentary" concerning videogames.  Since it's a participatory hobby for me unlike music, guess whose opinion and comments count the most?  Fucking MINE.  I don't know how to play a guitar, can't sing for shit and don't know how to read music.  It's fun to read about the process because it's foreign to me.  Videogames?  Not so much.  It's all about the end experience.  Who cares about what drives developers or any meta trend in the industry?  Give me a fucking game to play and stay out of the way.  "Videogame journalism" should be focused about 90% on previews of upcoming games and technology, 10% on reviews of final product, and 0% on any opinion or commentary.  I don't want to know about the people that develop these games- stay chained to your desks, nerds!

[Human Snorenado]

You know, the thing is though that I just don't care about any so called "intelligent commentary" concerning videogames.  Since it's a participatory hobby for me unlike music, guess whose opinion and comments count the most?  Fucking MINE.  I don't know how to play a guitar, can't sing for shit and don't know how to read music.  It's fun to read about the process because it's foreign to me.  Videogames?  Not so much.  It's all about the end experience.  Who cares about what drives developers or any meta trend in the industry?  Give me a fucking game to play and stay out of the way.  "Videogame journalism" should be focused about 90% on previews of upcoming games and technology, 10% on reviews of final product, and 0% on any opinion or commentary.  I don't want to know about the people that develop these games- stay chained to your desks, nerds!

Sorry I'm not entirely sure what you're complaining about. There's no such thing as a videogame journalist but you are only interested in previews?

I'm saying I want just the facts, thank you very much.  Editorializing and writing about the personal lives of devs and industry muckity mucks is not interesting to me at all, nor is meta commentary on the industry.  Tell me what's coming, give me screenshots and impressions.  Other than that, be glad you're being paid money to "write" about videogames and drop the lame pretension that you have a OMG SERIOUS JOB.  You don't.  You write about videogames for a living.  That's not serious.

[GilloD]

It's just that not even the "best" video game "critics" have written even Roget Ebert's farts worth of a worthwhile criticism. The medium is goofy.

[dammitmattt]

The biggest problem with reviews is that everything is so superficial.  There aren't enough post-release "deep dives" or "post-mortems" based on weeks or months of playing the game.  This is particularly true of games with strong online components.

I think sites should have running diaries or something letting their writers continue to write about their gaming experiences post-release.  It's too much about the build-up and the explosion.  We need more cuddling.

[Van Cruncheon]

this.

is.

MASTURBATION!

<kicks "games journalism" into the well of its own trenchant egocentrism>

[y2kev]

Using the word symposium is a mistake unless you're plato, but this doesn't sound that bad. I mean, given the joke that sites like IGN, Gamespot, and 1up have become, having some serious discussion could be good. But maybe under a different title, yes?

[Don Flamenco]

I just don't feel any different from the guys reviewing games.  Some of them have good writing styles, but overall, I feel like they're just as subject to hype as the next guy and don't reveal anything new about games to me, like music or movie reviews do. They don't seem to have any pull with the companies or the people they write for...no major review site will ever post a sub-9 review for GTA or Halo.

so all of this exploration seems like it'll be fruitless.

I don't even read game reviews or articles anymore, aside from some game blogs that put up interesting, intelligent articles.

[Tabasco]

I dig the post mortems you'll see on Gamasutra and Edge.

As far as reviews, I treat them as entertainment properties themselves.  All I want is length, notation of any game breaking bugs, and a number at the end.  Some are good.  I'm playing Flatout: UC and the dude from Eurogamer completely nailed the review.

But this whole roundtable things is a joke.  I still remember all those shitty Bioshock reviews that fapped over it's atmosphere and story, but failed to mention it's monotonous fetch-quests.  If that's these guys hope for the future of their craft, no thanks.

[Kestastrophe]

Top illiterate gaming journo must be Garnett from 1UP. He can't articulate shit.

I agree that he is illiterate and inarticulate (I've only ever heard him fawn over games in a valley girl-esque "oh my god" and spewing GAF memes) but he is merely turd in a sea of turds. I think that GamePro ranks up there in terms of worst writing, but I really hate Hilary Goldstein if nothing more than for his spread of FUD on podcasts.

[cool breeze]

Using the word symposium is a mistake unless you're plato, but this doesn't sound that bad. I mean, given the joke that sites like IGN, Gamespot, and 1up have become, having some serious discussion could be good. But maybe under a different title, yes?

Extreme Makeover distinguished mentally-challenged fellow Critic Edition

[duckman2000]

I enjoy ripping on critics, but a good deal of the blame for the lack of good writers in gaming media should probably be placed on the games themselves. How can anyone demand a serious take on the products, when the products themselves are largely blunt takes on perhaps more demanding concepts than developers can do justice (or the marketplace, due to its inherent limitations, can support)? If games develop past blunt satire, oorah's, baseline inoffensive humor and in your face literary and religious references with all the subtlety of a turd on light parquet, the majority of the current gaming media troupe will very quickly prove itself incapable of covering the medium.

[Eel O'Brian]

yeah, the satire in fallout 3 is pretty heavy-handed at times

that game was best at the quests more grounded towards the quest-giving characters themselves rather than the quests which tried to convey some sort of message (there are only a few, but those were the ones i least enjoyed)

[y2kev]

I was surprised to hear a number of 1uppers haven't finished college? Really?

Not that you need a degree to prove you can write, but you'd think the analytical and deconstructive skills one would acquire by, you know, going to school might be useful?

[Human Snorenado]

this.

is.

MASTURBATION!

<kicks "games journalism" into the well of its own trenchant egocentrism>

prole gets it, of course.

[cool breeze]

I was surprised to hear a number of 1uppers haven't finished college? Really?

Not that you need a degree to prove you can write, but you'd think the analytical and deconstructive skills one would acquire by, you know, going to school might be useful?

I'm assuming it's a lot of the younger people that jumped in when those who found real jobs bailed from ziff.  Only two people I would suspect that are older than 30 are Garnett and that Asian guy who doesn't breath.

[Eel O'Brian]

garnett's over 40, i believe

[recursivelyenumerable]

wow, Triumph is like, 180 degrees wrong.  Previews of upcoming games and technology are completely worthless.  Usually they just regurgitate PR and hype, or else if they're trying to be "critical" it's irritating misinformed criticism based on a few screenshots or a 10 minute demo play.  The best time to talk about a game is after it's out, when you might actually have something to say about it.  Interviews are at least making use of a resource unavailable to the public, although they tend to always ask the same lame questions as Crushed ably illustrated.

[dammitmattt]

Garnett has a great speaking voice and is often a very good host.  Plus he's a damn nice guy.  He just gets a bad rap because he's not always great at communicating his opinions.  On the other hand, Shane is a dick who doesn't seem to play many games (in comparison to how many games he actively discusses), but he's very effective at communicating his opinion, however uninformed it might be.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I agree with tennin.

I also don't expect much to come from this circle jerk.  Game journalists will all wax intellectual about the industry and basically everything except for themselves.  In fact, they will probably think more interviews and more PR/Previews are needed.  Maybe they think pinching off some more Podcasts will be the answer.

Reviewers just need to review the game and state their thoughts on said game.  If they didn't bother playing the game, they shouldn't put out an embarrassing review that makes them look like a moron.  Either hand it off to someone else or don't do it at all.  People won't notice that a game review is missing but they will know if there is a review of something that was obvious the reviewer didn't even play.

I don't expect anything else to happen because they can talk about ethics but publishers give these rags and sites the revenue.  If they pull out, a lot of these sites will collapse quickly.

[recursivelyenumerable]

also, it's fine if reviewers don't always have time to finish the games they review --- some of them take forever after all --- but they should state in their review how long they played it

[Human Snorenado]

Sorry guys, this medium will never lend itself to OMG SERIOUS BUSINESS enough to warrant anything resembling "journalism".  I still maintain the best use of these websites (cause who reads print anymore, really) is to show off games and technology coming down the pipeline.  I suppose that some reviews are moderately useful- I know this is a different genre of entertainment altogether, but while I don't always agree 100% with Peter Travers' film reviews it's usually about 80% or so and that's a good guidepost.  Trouble is, I haven't found any reviewer like that in videogame land and doubt I will- moneyhats are obviously the law of the land right now.  Hell, people I respect on EB give better feedback on games than any "professional videogame journalist".  Just give it up already.

[Human Snorenado]

The obvious caveat would be if Itagaki killed a big tittied cheeseburger hooker with a katana in a sake and cocaine fueled rage- then we'd have use for a "professional videogame journalist".  Of course, if that happened actual journalists would cover it so "professional videogame journalists" would once again be as useful as tits on a stealth bomber.

[recursivelyenumerable]

I still maintain the best use of these websites (cause who reads print anymore, really) is to show off games and technology coming down the pipeline.

How is showing off games and technology coming down the pipeline worth anything to anyone?

[Human Snorenado]

You see it wrong cardcheat cause you judge games by the same standards as books it seems. The level of their story doesnt need to be on the level of a book to be seriously discussed, because a story is only a small part of a game. There is plenty of other stuff, known as gameplay which can be seriously discussed.

FUCKING DUH.  That doesn't require a journalism degree or trying to sound smarter and more important than you really are.  WTF are you talking about, jerky?

[Human Snorenado]

I still maintain the best use of these websites (cause who reads print anymore, really) is to show off games and technology coming down the pipeline.

How is showing off games and technology coming down the pipeline of any use to anyone?

Jesus Christ tennin, were you THROWN as a baby?  It's obviously more useful to know what's happening in the future and near future than what Denis Dyack thinks about fucking philosophy.  Are you being purposely obtuse here?

[Oblivion]

I dunno, Triumph. Post Mortems are pretty awesome. I love hearing about stuff behind the scenes.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

Shane is awesome, I don't get why people hate him.

[WrikaWrek]

Because he speaks like a Ps3 Fanboy forum poster.

[Human Snorenado]

I dunno, Triumph. Post Mortems are pretty awesome. I love hearing about stuff behind the scenes.

Yes, because by all means let's hear about how a couple levels on Force Unleashed had to be cut.  That's a great justification for these yahoos to call themselves "journalists".  Obviously you guys take this hobby more seriously than I do.

[Human Snorenado]

Yes lets only enjoy things that you do. God forbid someone would find insight into a games production interesting.

Don't you have an AIDS test to study for or something?

[WrikaWrek]

I got yo back Kosma, let's drop this fool

[Oblivion]

I dunno, Triumph. Post Mortems are pretty awesome. I love hearing about stuff behind the scenes.

Yes, because by all means let's hear about how a couple levels on Force Unleashed had to be cut.  That's a great justification for these yahoos to call themselves "journalists".  Obviously you guys take this hobby more seriously than I do.

Well, I don't mean I want people to analyze the story of Solid Snake's life or shit like that. Just that specific area of reporting is legitimately interesting.

I'M JUST SAYIN, G.

[Human Snorenado]

How any of you people have ever even SEEN a vagina in person is beyond me.

[ananus]

i stopped caring about printed/professional reviews when i realized zelda:oot was supposedly the best game ever yet it sucked donkey dick. never looked back.

as far as reviews on the internet, i sometimes go to gamefaqs and see what reviews it has from fellow gamers. usually you can pick a very negative and a very positive review to see what shines and what smells as a starting point. forums can also be misleading sometimes, especially when games get the cult treatment.

as for the "pros", more often than not you can find good info on previews than reviews since a)they are unfinished so criticism is expected and b)they don't seem to be considered as important in the grand scheme of moneyhats.

i guess things are changing though, with the death of print and forums being the new pr tools, filled with virals and whatnot. every day i trust other posters' opinions less, especially since sales started motivating people to hype games.

[WrikaWrek]

How any of you people have ever even SEEN a vagina in person is beyond me.

Look at this internet hero.

Dude hanging around with a ear ring in your right ear doesn't make you a cigarillo, you understand that right?

[Eel O'Brian]

what the hell is a tennin

[dammitmattt]

Because he speaks like a Ps3 Fanboy forum poster.

And he brings absolutely nothing to do the table since you already know what he's going to say before he opens his mouth.  Listening to him talk about current games is as useless as watching Hannity and Colmes.

However, he actually does bring something to the table on Retronauts, especially when he shuts up every once in a while.

[pilonv1]

you know why most people end up as GAMES JOURNALISTS? because they're unqualified to do anything else. why would you care what some uncultured sloth thinks about a game?

and even if they do get the chance to think for themselves and ask someone questions about their game or development they're all the same.

and why do you think they're so intent on putting themselves over? because they do a shitty job that anyone else could do and are so desperate to get out and do some real work.

[demi]

I like reading about post mortems too. What went wrong, what went right, etc. that you see in GameDeveloperMagazine. Good reads when I was at GDC.

[Tabasco]

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2008/12/10/2nd-annual-slate-gaming-club-round-2-excerpts.aspx

N'Gai Croal, Newsweek: Your point about professionalism also intrigues me. You're correct that, by and large, the level of craft in the video game industry continues to grow each year, and 2008 was no exception. I wonder if, however, by settling for the professionalism inherent in the acknowledgment that "we are those men, and we had fun with these games," we let games off too easily when they take the easy way out, interactively speaking....

Was Epic's handling of Maria's fate a failure of craft or art? I say it's worth thinking hard about, especially when writing for a mainstream audience like yours in the Times and mine at Newsweek. Because when we avoid such questions, we're gulling our readers into believing that story and gameplay are mutually exclusive--or that games are just like other media.

[tiesto]

Of course, if that happened actual journalists would cover it so "professional videogame journalists" would once again be as useful as tits on a stealth bomber.

Hmmm...

*submits idea to B2 development team*

[recursivelyenumerable]

... yeah, that was pretty bad.

[Don Flamenco]

http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/levelup/archive/2008/12/10/2nd-annual-slate-gaming-club-round-2-excerpts.aspx

N'Gai Croal, Newsweek: Your point about professionalism also intrigues me. You're correct that, by and large, the level of craft in the video game industry continues to grow each year, and 2008 was no exception. I wonder if, however, by settling for the professionalism inherent in the acknowledgment that "we are those men, and we had fun with these games," we let games off too easily when they take the easy way out, interactively speaking....

Was Epic's handling of Maria's fate a failure of craft or art? I say it's worth thinking hard about, especially when writing for a mainstream audience like yours in the Times and mine at Newsweek. Because when we avoid such questions, we're gulling our readers into believing that story and gameplay are mutually exclusive--or that games are just like other media.

if they were honest with the mainstream audience, they'd tell them how hackneyed and predictable that B-movie shit was compared to the books and movies those audiences have read and seen. not even B-movie level...the gears universe is a few guys running from spot to spot killing things with some cliched cinematics and dialogue thrown in to give the appearance that the player is taking part in some epic action narrative.  stock characters in a stock setting speaking stock dialogue--it's not worth thinking about at all. 

Unless you get paid to think about and write shit like this

[Sho Nuff]

hahahha these people are funney

[Van Cruncheon]

they are not happy with me at qt3 :'(