The Real Mens thread of testosterone, heavy lifting, towel fights and depilation

[Cormacaroni]

Alright EB, I've had it up to here with all this talk of crunches and brisk walks.

I do real fucking exercise and I'm proud of it. This stuff changed my life. I learn and seek out new things to try and improve on constantly, and I'd like to find out what you guys do, know, and are interested in as well.

I do Crossfit workouts exclusively, and mostly stick to a 3 days on, 1 day off schedule. You can check out the workouts and methodology on http://www.crossfit.com/  I don't follow the main site workouts religiously because a lot of them are just too hard or require stuff I don't have. So I adapt them or scale them back to suit my fitness level and equipment a lot. Many of my workouts are done at home with a barbell, kettlebells, a medicine ball or just bodyweight. I do very little that fits into the traditional bodybuilding split routines (no curls, flyes, rows etc). The key exercises are squats, deadlifts, presses, pull-ups, push-ups, sit-ups, sprints, burpees, dips, things of that nature. The goals are probably more general than what a lot of people want. I want broad strength & conditioning, not bulging biceps or the ability to run long slow distance. And I don't want 'a little bit of everything' - I want a LOT of everything.

This leads to something of an elitist mindset, I admit, and I'm probably way more aggressive about this than most people who don't work out will care for. Tough titty, don't get fat the next time if you don't want my advice! I think this stuff really works, certainly in terms of the results you get in the time you put in. So be prepared to have your views challenged.

That said, I'm keen to hear what other people do, and what works for them. So who are you, what are your goals, and what have you tried? And most importantly, what works?

[Mandark]

I thought real mens played real sports which keep real scores.

Real talk.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I thought real mens played real sports which keep real scores.

Real talk.

No, they make snarky posts on internet message boards instead.

[Mandark]

Or they make posts about people making posts wokka wokka wokka meta.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

My weekly split:

Sunday - Rest (Steam Room/Sauna 30 minutes)
Monday - Chest and Shoulders, 30 minutes of Treadmill afterwards
Tuesday - Back and Abs, 30 minutes of Treadmill
Wednesday - Rest (Steam Room/Sauna 30 minutes)
Thursday - Arms, 30 minutes of Treadmill
Friday - Shoulders, 45 minutes of Treadmill

Every day usually consists of about 12 total sets in all.

[duckman2000]

Saturday: eat pot and drink cheeseburgers

[Phoenix Dark]

Wow, the videos on that site sound hot

Jerk...[wmv] [mov]
Jerk (behind the head)...[wmv] [mov]

[Bocsius]

My workout schedule and routine are pretty basic. Tuesday / Thursday / Saturday, about an hour each day. Mostly upper body, 4 sets of 8 for each exercise (3 sets of 15 on weighted ab crunches). Leg press and hammy curls for the legs. I regularly increase resistance on each exercise, possibly even too quickly, although I'm trying to be better about it. Missing two weeks around Thanksgiving due to illness actually set me back a bit on endurance. I can do the weight, just not the reps. I'm catching up, though.

[Van Cruncheon]

how does one not find exercise mind-numbingly dull

if i could take a drug to turn my brain off i would exercise all the time

instead, even a 30 minute jog seems like a fucking lifetime, even with an mp3 player cranked

serious, here. i do the occasional exercise because hey, it's healthy and i don't wanna end up like some of my coworkers, but on the other hand, snooooooore

[Bocsius]

Oh, it's completely dull and a total time drain. My Tuesday and Thursday nights are basically consumed by the workout. Even Saturday requires me to schedule around it. There's not a single workout day when I don't ask myself sometime during the workout "why am I doing this?" And the answer is simple. "I have no earthly idea."

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

For the treadmill, I look at the numbers on the display like calories burned, time, incline, etc. and I make number combinations out of them.

A particularly exciting moment is when I get 34:56 lapsed because I know it will never be like that again for the rest of the workout.

That or times like 13:35.  See there are two digit differences between 1 and 3 and 3 and 5.  Add each side together and you get 4 and 8.  The average is 6, which is the same value of the addition of two middle numbers, 3 + 3.

[duckman2000]

For some, it's personal fitness and looks, for me it's just a matter of being able to do the work I've created for myself. If I'm going to run an outdoor event company, I can't be blubber and bone. And after the god damned hospitalization, my balance was off forever and I got weak as hell. Not the way things should be; if I'm going to waste away, it's going to be because I took good drugs or something. Not because of a blend of laziness and set-backs due to health issues.

Losing my balance was bad enough; I' was a natural at running and leaping between objects, and that's gone to hell. I don't want to add blubber as an additional issue.

[Van Cruncheon]

y'know, if it wasn't for cultural ostracization, i would totally let myself go to shit. thanks, fuckers; i could be chugging a beer and eating garbage bags full of pretzels instead of sipping crystal light salted by tears

[Van Cruncheon]

For the treadmill, I look at the numbers on the display like calories burned, time, incline, etc. and I make number combinations out of them.

A particularly exciting moment is when I get 34:56 lapsed because I know it will never be like that again for the rest of the workout.

That or times like 13:35.  See there are two digit differences between 1 and 3 and 3 and 5.  Add each side together and you get 4 and 8.  The average is 6, which is the same value of the addition of two middle numbers, 3 + 3.

gematria drives me crazy. i do this, too, but in the end it only lasts so long and i find myself considering time deltas to the point that every tick of an lcd number seems like god's own eternity

[demi]

prole, i wouldnt want you to strain your body. you could be an object of my desires. we can make this work...

[Mandark]

how does one not find exercise mind-numbingly dull

if i could take a drug to turn my brain off i would exercise all the time

instead, even a 30 minute jog seems like a fucking lifetime, even with an mp3 player cranked

serious, here. i do the occasional exercise because hey, it's healthy and i don't wanna end up like some of my coworkers, but on the other hand, snooooooore

My impression is that it's like most other hobbies.  Just train yourself to feel a sense of accomplishment when you meet certain benchmarks, and voila.

drohne (I think) had a theory where you need to hate yourself enough that the fear of being pear-shaped trumps the drudgery of exercise.  Sounds plausible too.

[Van Cruncheon]

i can't imagine hating myself :'(

[duckman2000]

Reaffirming my position as a walking cliche, I honestly feel like shit when I skip a training pass.

Doesn't help that the kid so kindly reminds me that I haven't exercised enough, and lets me know when I didn't do all 30 of something. :/

[drohne]

i run on a treadmil 5 or 6 a week and do some dumbell exercises 4 or 5 days

i am still in worse shape than i was when i was 21, did very little excercise, smoked a pack a day, and drank 5 nights a week

[Bocsius]

When I first started working out and was on the ellipticals, I would basically count down by percentages. I would say "I'm going three miles" and would be like "I'm at 1 percent... 2 percent... 3 percent..." Ugh, it was awful. I would have the iPod on, that wouldn't keep my mind occupied, though. They have a whole series of televisions above the exercise bikes and treadmills, tuned to ESPN, CNN, Fox News, but the only sound you'd hear was from the internal music television network that plays basically three artists... Justin Timberlake, Pussycat Dolls, and... wait, I said there were three, didn't I? I may have meant two. So no dice staying distracted on that end.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

My dad was a competing powerlifter so I essentially grew up in the atmosphere of weight lifting, the gym, and all that.  Plus when I went out for football, weight lifting was mandatory.  I just kept going with it after High School.

In fact, if I don't exercise, I get maybe 3-4 hours of sleep at the most.

[Cormacaroni]

how does one not find exercise mind-numbingly dull

if i could take a drug to turn my brain off i would exercise all the time

instead, even a 30 minute jog seems like a fucking lifetime, even with an mp3 player cranked

serious, here. i do the occasional exercise because hey, it's healthy and i don't wanna end up like some of my coworkers, but on the other hand, snooooooore

This was a huuuuuuuuuge problem for me 'til I was introduced to Crossfit. I couldn't stand running on the treadmill or the eliptical, and workouts like T EXP's above took far too much time for me. (Which is maybe another way of saying I wasn't dedicated enough but whatever).

The big difference for me was the intensity levels. Essentially, the workouts are like sport. They're all little competitions. You can compare your results (time, weight or whatever) with anyone else on the planet who did that workout.

Essentially, you do every workout like your ass is on fire, then hit the showers. You don't have time to get bored. Most of my workouts are done during my lunch break. The average is under 20 mins. And there is a huge amount of variety in the programming, so you're constantly being forced into tackling your weaknesses or learning new skills entirely.

OK, I'll extend the following offer/challenge to anyone interested in trying Crossfit. Send me a PM with some info about your fitness (height/weight/activity level/equipment you have available) and I'll program you a week or so of workouts. I did this for one other poster (who shall remain anonymous 'til he tells me it's cool) and he seemed to get a lot out of it. I'm very curious to see what it could do for random other folks with different fitness levels too.

[Van Cruncheon]

well, it'd be nice to be able to hike up a few hills with going into an quasi-asthmatic fit

however, i'm also not terribly motivated beyond the basics because i'm generally pretty content with my own laziness

so answer me this: why the proselytization? i'll do it out of curiosity if you want, because non-boring exercise is intriguing as a concept even as i think it highly unlikely

[Cormacaroni]

My dad was a competing powerlifter so I essentially grew up in the atmosphere of weight lifting, the gym, and all that.  Plus when I went out for football, weight lifting was mandatory.  I just kept going with it after High School.

In fact, if I don't exercise, I get maybe 3-4 hours of sleep at the most.

Awesome that you grew up with heavy weights! I agree with you pretty much on the primacy of the squat and deadlift for strength, maybe not so much the bench. But then I don't have a bench at home so I still have an excuse not to do it at this point. Have you read any of Mark Rippetoe's powerlifting stuff? He gives more weight (har har) to the (strict) press than the bench press.

I'm also learning the Olympic lifts. Pretty decent with the power clean, ok on the clean & jerk. Haven't even started on the snatch.

[drohne]

drohne (I think) had a theory where you need to hate yourself enough that the fear of being pear-shaped trumps the drudgery of exercise.  Sounds plausible too.

i don't remember saying that, but i am a believer in the transformative power of self loathing, so it sounds familiar enough

[Cormacaroni]

well, it'd be nice to be able to hike up a few hills with going into an quasi-asthmatic fit

however, i'm also not terribly motivated beyond the basics because i'm generally pretty content with my own laziness

so answer me this: why the proselytization? i'll do it out of curiosity if you want, because non-boring exercise is intriguing as a concept even as i think it highly unlikely

Why proselytize? 'cause everyone i've got doing this stuff in real life LOVES it. It really isn't for everyone (it's really fucking hard) but if it clicks with you, it's a game-changer. I know people that have worked out for 20 years in the traditional manner, and now can't imagine doing anything else but Crossfit. It's that different.

At the same time, it's as old as the hills. It's probably closer to what you did in grade school than anything you've done in adulthood. Think about the stuff you did back then - that stuff WORKED. It probably sucked because they made you do far too much of it with not enough variation but still - i bet you didn't have time to think about how boring it was. Many of the Crossfit workouts just take those 2hr PT sessions and crams them into 10 or 15 minutes.

And then there are the new skills. When was the last time you tried something new with your body (that wouldn't get you arrested in any state other than Nevada)? Once you see someone doing a handstand push-up, say, you get curious. Can i do that? It reintroduces the feeling of 'play' back into exercise, at least for me.

[cool breeze]

how does one not find exercise mind-numbingly dull

if i could take a drug to turn my brain off i would exercise all the time

instead, even a 30 minute jog seems like a fucking lifetime, even with an mp3 player cranked

serious, here. i do the occasional exercise because hey, it's healthy and i don't wanna end up like some of my coworkers, but on the other hand, snooooooore

It really does feel like forever.  Only time feels like it's going slower is when I'm in a boring class.

[Cormacaroni]

It's not strange for a 30 min jog to feel like forever.

1) Unless you're going really slow, it's just plain hard. (if it isn't hard - what's the point? you're just burning calories. Eat one less Snickers bar and you get to the same place)

2) 30 mins is a long time to do any activity as simple as running. Everyone already knows how to run (with the caveat that most of us don't run in the most efficient way) so there is no learning new motor pathways involved. It's a skill you already have, you're just doing more of it.

On the other hand, take the distance you would normally run, cut it in half, slice it up into rounds of 400 meter sprints interspersed by rounds of fast power cleans, for example, and you have a workout that provides more calorie burn, helps you maintain strength (and may well increase it), keeps you jumping between wildly different activities with different physical requirements (different metabolic pathways, muscle groups etc) and is done in half the time.

If you have a buddy doing the same workout at the same time, and both of you are competing to see who can get it done faster...whoo boy, it's a rush. You're not just grinding through it, you're RACING through it. Intensity is the key.

[duckman2000]

You guys who find plain jogging to be drag should check into turning it into more of a 'point A to point B and damned whatever is in between affair.' Although, that may not be the best idea for those with questionable joints, but it makes it feel like there's a purpose to it (other than personal fitness). Will also train you for whenever you have to escape an angry mob, the police, or whatever.

Honestly though, I'm not one to exercise for my own betterment. It really is all about being able to tip over heavy objects, slog through swampland with arms held high and booking through heavy underbrush for me.

[Cormacaroni]

You guys who find plain jogging to be drag should check into turning it into more of a 'point A to point B and damned whatever is in between affair.' Although, that may not be the best idea for those with questionable joints, but it makes it feel like there's a purpose to it (other than personal fitness). Will also train you for whenever you have to escape an angry mob, the police, or whatever.

Yeah, and you can also try...not jogging. Seriously, if you hate it that much, there are plenty of alternatives. You probably don't need to run anywhere near as much as you think.

[duckman2000]

You guys who find plain jogging to be drag should check into turning it into more of a 'point A to point B and damned whatever is in between affair.' Although, that may not be the best idea for those with questionable joints, but it makes it feel like there's a purpose to it (other than personal fitness). Will also train you for whenever you have to escape an angry mob, the police, or whatever.

Yeah, and you can also try...not jogging. Seriously, if you hate it that much, there are plenty of alternatives. You probably don't need to run anywhere near as much as you think.

Well, I'm not an expert on fitness anything, so I'm keeping my advice within what they're already doing.  I'm a big fan of 'dynamic running' (I refuse to call it free running, damn it) even if I can't really do it myself these days.

[Cormacaroni]

On the other hand, take the distance you would normally run, cut it in half, slice it up into rounds of 400 meter sprints interspersed by rounds of fast power cleans, for example, and you have a workout that provides more calorie burn, helps you maintain strength (and may well increase it), keeps you jumping between wildly different activities with different physical requirements (different metabolic pathways, muscle groups etc) and is done in half the time.

the crossfit routines certainly fits more to short lunchtimes.

but one note though : i did find that this changed my abilities drastically. my stop-start burst sprinting that i'd use at Futsal, i could suddenly do all day rather than have to conserve some energy (i.e. : don't bother defending, token trackback, save for scoring ops) , but my distance running ability dropped right off (which i'd read wouldn't happen and that many distance runners use CF to improve overal distance stamina).

5 Km feels like hell right now, and i never used to get into my stride until 7-8km (at 12-13km/h)

Right now, i've been at the pies, so it's even harder. lol.

You have only ever done ONE Crossfit workout though. I told you it wouldn't make any sense. If you were following the program, you'd be running 5ks and 10ks enough that your endurance wouldn't drop off.

[Bildi]

Aerobic activity via aerobics and step forms about half of my exercise, along with a smaller portion of heavy cardio (like say step ups, shuttle runs, skipping that sort of thing).  The other half is flexibility, balance, speed, core strength, core stability and things like that which is via fitballs and medicine balls, pilates, body resistance and some weights here and there.

My flexibility in a couple of key areas is probably my biggest challenge, particularly my hamstrings.  They've been improving over the past few years, but I still have a long way to go.

I too used to have difficulty keeping up exercise.  But finding things that are actually entertaining was the key.  Aerobics and step were the biggest thing for me as I was able to find instructors who do complex or intricate routines which keeps me challenged, entertained, and allows my brain to relax and wind down after a day of work.

[duckman2000]

Hippie

[Cormacaroni]

it does sound a little bit , i have to say...

[Bildi]

Hippie?  Aerobics involves people running around in colourful, form-fitting lycra.  I feel cigarillo or wilde homo would be more appropriate guys.

[Rman]

Mac has great advice.  He helped me out a lot.  I'm back to swimming laps primarily, with so cross fit and weights mixed in.

[Cormacaroni]

Mac has great advice.  He helped me out a lot.  I'm back to swimming laps primarily, with so cross fit and weights mixed in.

Rman

DCharlie

[duckman2000]

Hippie?  Aerobics involves people running around in colourful, form-fitting lycra.  I feel cigarillo or wilde homo would be more appropriate guys.

Between this stay fit stuff, the daily WDYB and the cookware thread, I think we all have a little spandex going on.  All we need is a thread about Glade plug-ins, really.

[Cormacaroni]

sigh, i enjoy what i do, and that's what exercise is about for me, you crossfit nazi you !

Guilty as charged!

How about we make a deal? You come over to my place one weekend for a Crossfit session, and I'll finish Bioshock. Then we can both stop nagging each other!

[Bildi]

Between this stay fit stuff, the daily WDYB and the cookware thread, I think we all have a little spandex going on.  All we need is a thread about Glade plug-ins, really.

[Tristam]

Crossfit doesn't really fit with my goals -- not that I can really talk about lifting goals, since they've recently been superseded by schoolwork. Next semester I'll be less busy though and I'll finally hit the gym again with Rippetoe's program. I can stand to bulk up 20 lbs.; the added speed and power will be a nice bonus.

[Cormacaroni]

Crossfit doesn't really fit with my goals -- not that I can really talk about lifting goals, since they've recently been superseded by schoolwork. Next semester I'll be less busy though and I'll finally hit the gym again with Rippetoe's program. I can stand to bulk up 20 lbs.; the added speed and power will be a nice bonus.

Cool - have you done Starting Strength before? I'm basically trying to do at least one, sometimes 2, SS-esque days per week. I'm definitely not doing the program but i'm looking into it. The SS book is great if you haven't read it.

[BobbyRobby]

for the last few months i've just been doing pull-ups, push-ups, and pseudo dips using two folding chairs and resting my feet on something.  i can do like 20 pull-ups and 50 push-ups now, which is more than i ever could.  a lot of what keeps it fun is having three brothers to compete with.  still am pretty skinny though, and have a slight gut from years of drinking, but i don't mind much.

you say you can do this crossfit thing during lunchbreaks.  am i to assume it's mostly bodyweight workouts than can be done without equipment?  that's something that would interest me.

[Cormacaroni]

A ton of stuff can be done with just bodyweight, yeah. But the more equipment you have, the more you can do.

check out the various vids on this page. The actual workouts are in the 'WOD' section (workout of the day).

http://www.crossfit.com/cf-info/excercise.html

Here's a few good ones to start (yes, many of the WODs have names just 'cause it's easier to remember that way).

Fran -


Annie Are You OK -



GI Jane -



The Bear -

[Van Cruncheon]

so this is the new bulging face of viking homosexuality

i was kinda thinkin "hey, cormac's a good guy, he might have a point" but the grunting apes in these videos frightened me away

[Cormacaroni]

so this is the new bulging face of viking homosexuality

i was kinda thinkin "hey, cormac's a good guy, he might have a point" but the grunting apes in these videos frightened me away

And PP stumbles at the start line, bloodying his nose on the ground. ah well.

I'm not really sure what you expected. Recitations of Proust while doing muscle-ups perhaps? Of course people grunt when doing exercise!

[Van Cruncheon]

there you go again with the competitive nonsense

since when is fitness about competition

[Cormacaroni]

Since 2003, when crossfit.com launched 

Competition is what makes it interesting, as is explained in the 'Annie are you ok' clip. "Men will die for points''. Does that sound familiar to a gamer? Just by recording times for the workouts, and putting those times up on a whiteboard in the gym for everyone to see, people's results skyrocket because they try harder. And they have more fun too. (And for the record, it's a very supportive community - people will congratulate you on whatever you get, for the most part. This isn't high school or the Olympics - it ultimately doesn't matter to anyone but you what your score is and everyone knows it).

I get why you don't like it. There's no getting around the fact that fit people are basically annoying jocks who think they're better than everyone else because they look good in shorts. It is however my contention that it is better to be annoying than annoyed. I'm prepared to sacrifice a little bit of DCharlie's patience if it means my wife wants to grab my ass more.

[duckman2000]

Of course people grunt when doing exercise!

I swear, a lot. So much so that the kid goes off on rants of the "Jesus fucked in hell" variety whenever she lifts stuff from the floor. 

[Cormacaroni]

Of course people grunt when doing exercise!

I swear, a lot. So much so that the kid goes off on rants of the "Jesus fucked in hell" variety whenever she lifts stuff from the floor. 

I'm terrified of the kid being around the barbell though. I was squatting on my porch one night when my wife took the kid out to see what Daddy was doing - I almost dropped the barbell on them. Kids have no fear of this stuff at all.

[Van Cruncheon]

no, i have nothing against competition, it just doesn't motivate me overmuch although i enjoy a good bout of trash talk as much as the next guy

what does "looking good" get me -- i don't have a lot of insecurities, here

my wife is an exercise fiend for her health first and foremost. where's the competition in wanting to be healthy? i ask because i'm getting some conflicting messages here

[duckman2000]

no, i have nothing against competition, it just doesn't motivate me overmuch although i enjoy a good bout of trash talk as much as the next guy

what does "looking good" get me -- i don't have a lot of insecurities, here

my wife is an exercise fiend for her health first and foremost. where's the competition in wanting to be healthy? i ask because i'm getting some conflicting messages here

Motivation, for some. I don't care much about standardizing my looks; I've been OK with being a freakishly hairless, well proportioned and stylish monster for some years. Healthiness, works to some degree, but I'll never care as much about it as fitness freaks can. My motivation is that I need strength for future tasks, but I'm hoping that once I'm active with those tasks, dedicated exercise sessions will be unnecessary. I can see how competition can work as a motivator, but it's not for me. In fact, fuck other people, especially ones that volunteer to compete with me.

Of course people grunt when doing exercise!

I swear, a lot. So much so that the kid goes off on rants of the "Jesus fucked in hell" variety whenever she lifts stuff from the floor. 

I'm terrified of the kid being around the barbell though. I was squatting on my porch one night when my wife took the kid out to see what Daddy was doing - I almost dropped the barbell on them. Kids have no fear of this stuff at all.

I got scared shitless after I dropped a weight behind me, and heard the kid starting to cry. Turned out she'd just dropped her icecream, but still. 

[Van Cruncheon]

oh, your reasoning was sound enough -- it's your JOB and part of your self-image. i'd absolutely do the same in your shoes.

 like recursively, though, i just can't fathom the naked ENTHUSIASM folks have for exercise; at some point, advertising one's delight in such a dreary pastime smells of compensation or worse: religion. it's like shitting, where i do it cuz i have to lest i face the toxic consequences, but i just can't understand how to celebrate it without regressing somehow.

[duckman2000]

On a separate note, I wish my wife was an exercise fiend, specifically for health reasons. Her entire family seems to suffer from heart issues, joint issues, diabetes, and it sometimes pisses me off that she's so meh about it. She wants to exercise, but not bad enough, and I don't think for the right reasons.

[Cormacaroni]

Well, I've learned not to waste time persuading people that they should be fit. I think everyone should, but I appreciate that it's hard as hell for most people, and that external motivation can only help so much. If you don't want to be fit, and pretty badly, it's probably not worth us discussing it further really. We'll just get into increasingly polarized viewpoints and annoy each other.

I spent a large chunk of my life with exactly your current mindset (why bother? I don't really need to be fit...I'm married so who cares what i look like...) so I'm highly sympathetic to it. I just don't think that way anymore, obviously. My motivations will probably not apply to you, however.

As to why competition motivates me, well, maybe I just have that obnoxious alpha male gene that means I can't stand to be beaten. What you have to realize though, is that I'm mostly competing with myself, not other people. Every time I do a Crossfit workout, I'm trying to beat my time/score/weight from the last time. Usually I do beat it, which tells me that I'm fitter/stronger. It works for me but of course YMMV.

[Van Cruncheon]

so what changed your mindset if it was the same as mine?

[duckman2000]

I don't mind being beaten at something, as it gives me a grand opportunity to craft a needless complex and long term plan for retaliation. Not that they are ever put in motion, but hey. I win the clandestine retaliation plan competition, every time.

[Van Cruncheon]

i usually don't assume anything is a competition until it's too late to care. hell, even throughout roughly 11 years of martial arts, i never felt an overwhelming urge to beat the guy i was fighting, but rather to see exactly what i could get away with without breaking the kumite rules or having everyone hate me

unsurprisingly, i did pretty damn well, since i spent more time considering my technique and tactics than focusing on raw aggression, although it was always a shock when an opponent flipped the fuck out and walloped me senseless -- so much for rational consideration! still surprises me to this day how SERIOUSLY people take these things :'(

[duckman2000]

There is just no way I can continue in this conversation without mentioning the many wonders and virtues of teargas, so...



The dude is like a ripped version of this scrawny, straight-out-of-gulag looking Jewish dude I know. And nearly as annoying to observe!