Author Topic: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X  (Read 2591 times)

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Tieno

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Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« on: January 30, 2009, 04:13:20 AM »
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279

Just saw this and it explains the systemic credit bubble. I feel so naïve thinking banks just lend out the money that's deposited by other people, instead they just "create" it.

I feel ill after watching this. Jesus christ. :-X
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 08:30:10 AM by Tieno »
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BobbyRobby

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2009, 04:23:02 AM »
didn't you get the memo?  criticism of fractional reserve banking makes you a crazy, tin foil-hat libertarian

TVC15

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2009, 04:27:35 AM »
didn't you get the memo?  criticism of fractional reserve banking makes you a crazy, tin foil-hat libertarian

How so, really? I'm fairly sure fractional reserve banking would still exist under a libertarian regime. 
serge

BobbyRobby

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2009, 04:49:07 AM »
The harshest current critics of Fractional Reserve Banking come from the Austrian school of economics to which Ron Paul subscribes. 

I guess the libertarian argument would be that it is a type of fraud, in that you are given a note with the promise to be repaid, but that in some cases they would be unable to fulfill the promise.


TVC15

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2009, 04:56:28 AM »
That's acceptable, but do you really think the lolbertarian free market types would be cool with the market not showing growth, which is the obvious result of only living within one's own means?  Libertarians are motivated by greed and selfishness.  If it weren't for the credit systems, there'd be no growth to fuel and justify their greed.  Formalized libertarian thought as of now may not incorporate such things, but if any government were distinguished mentally-challenged enough to let itself be ruled by libertarians, it would easily and quickly find its way into the canon.
serge

Mupepe

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2009, 05:14:51 AM »
i'm going to start my own nation with me as King and TVC as Queen.  FoC will be our Secretary of Treasury and also head up our National Bank.

BobbyRobby

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 05:27:06 AM »
Living within our means is a huge talking point of Ron Paul's, and he is the figurehead of the current liberty movement that gets classified as tin foil hat-wearing kooks.  The current movement is very idealistic, and largely unmotivated by greed.  For the most part they despise fractional reserve banking, the federal reserve, and corporatism.

I don't know what would happen if a libertarian government took hold, but the video posted in the OP is consistent with what you'd see posted on sites like breakthematrix, and other primarily libertarian communities beside other videos like "freedom to fascism."
 






Brehvolution

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 09:23:50 AM »
I posted that link a while back in the election thread and Frag laughed at me. :'(
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FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 09:31:48 AM »
Are you suggesting what I think you are suggesting?

spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Tieno

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 09:35:21 AM »
Are you suggesting what I think you are suggesting?

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No, the documentary proposes something different and new, instead of going back to gold coins.
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Tauntaun

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 09:57:36 AM »
I posted that link a while back in the election thread and Frag laughed at me. :'(

Did you e-rape him?
:)

Kestastrophe

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jon

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 11:58:39 AM »

Read it. Gold Standard was one of the causes of the Great Depression

 :lol

WrikaWrek

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2009, 12:10:36 PM »
Completely bullshit.

Gold Standard only "prolonged" the Great Depression, because it's a tough standard to deal with when governments need to inflate. The Gold standard is NOT one of the causes of the great depression.

And WW2 was the cure for the great depression.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2009, 12:15:13 PM »
Completely bullshit.

Gold Standard only "prolonged" the Great Depression,

If by gold standard you mean FDR then yes I agree with you.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2009, 12:25:12 PM »
Are you blaming consumers for borrowing too much money and falling for advertising?


 How very unpopulist of you. Clearly the fat CEOs and their comfy chairs and big cigars are to blame.

Kestastrophe

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2009, 12:31:15 PM »
The gold standard -- i.e., the gold standard -- was the monetary system more or less continuously in place between Waterloo and World War I. It was simplicity itself. Bank notes were exchangeable into gold, and gold into bank notes, at a fixed, inviolable rate. A central bank's everyday job was to facilitate this exchange. Of what we know today as "monetary policy" -- i.e., manipulating interest rates or the money supply to promote full employment or to pull the economy out of the ditch -- the conscientious central banker would have no part.

This gold standard perished in World War I. In its place, the governments of the postwar world established a system that looked like the gold standard. Currencies were said to be "backed" by bullion. But, in fact, the central bankers overrode the gold-standard rules. They manipulated interest rates and exchange rates and otherwise gummed up the exquisite gold-standard works. What looked like the gold standard bore no real relation to it. People suspected as much, for gold coins, in most countries, disappeared into private hoards rather than circulating from hand to hand as they had done for generations before the Great War.
But gold backing is not, in fact, the essential feature of a properly functioning gold standard. What made that self-regulating system tick was the simple rule that a dollar or a franc or a pound could not be in two places at the same time. Gold movements between debtors and creditors ensured as much.

You might suppose that so basic a feature of the physical world would naturally rule the financial one. But the post-World War I wrecking crew discovered that a certain privileged kind of money could be made to do double duty. This was the "reserve currency." The pound sterling was the original reserve currency, the top monetary brand of the day. The U.S. dollar is its successor. It was given to Britain, later to the U.S., to have it both ways, to consume much more than it produced but never to have to pay its foreign creditors in anything except the paper that it alone could lawfully print. And as if that were not good enough, the creditors dutifully reinvested the pounds or dollars in the securities of the debtor government. It was heaven on earth, while it lasted.

Of course, it didn't last; it never does. Inflation -- of prices or of credit -- brings down the hammer.


Who the hell was claiming that everyday citizens share no part in bearing responsibility, while big business bears all of it? There is an obvious systemic issue, and executives are targeted most frequently because they benefitted most from it at the expense of the public.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2009, 12:34:52 PM by Kestastrophe »
jon

EmCeeGrammar

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2009, 06:36:19 AM »
The documentary makes me think population control is the only option.  Because terraforming other planets is the only thing thats going to let this process continue and that is ElOhEl
sad

brawndolicious

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2009, 03:13:42 PM »
That seems like a pretty short-sighted documentary.  It says that the fractional reserve system was needed to meet the expansion needs of the colonists and industrial revolution but it doesn't give any solution.

Tieno

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2009, 04:13:32 PM »
That seems like a pretty short-sighted documentary.  It says that the fractional reserve system was needed to meet the expansion needs of the colonists and industrial revolution but it doesn't give any solution.
What? It proposes (a) different monetary system(s) at the end, starting at around the 35minute mark.
i

ToxicAdam

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2009, 04:23:18 PM »
I posted this in the Obama thread, maybe you missed it.

[youtube=560,345]-r_-QRKyu6g&[/youtube]




TVC15

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2009, 04:25:39 PM »
The documentary makes me think population control is the only option.  Because terraforming other planets is the only thing thats going to let this process continue and that is ElOhEl

Population control is a big elephant in the room that needs to be addressed before we could pretend to be concerned with climate change.  The population of earth has tripled (more than tripled by some estimates) during the 20th century.  Not only is that climbing number damaging to the environment and a drain on earth's resources, but there are other, more immediately pragmatic (for society) concerns.  Like, where will these people find jobs?  We can't expect new markets to constantly pop up for these people, and the increased demands in the service industry for serving the new people won't logically cover everyone.  Also, this is just another reason why the gold standard isn't any good--the more people in an economy, the more money there needs to be.  We couldn't even back our money with gold in the 20s (right?), and you think we'd be able to keep it backed with our current population, which has just about tripled since then?

Population control needs to be PUBLICLY TALKED ABOUT.  It is a far more pressing issue than long term climate change.
serge

Tieno

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2009, 04:29:39 PM »
The documentary makes me think population control is the only option.  Because terraforming other planets is the only thing thats going to let this process continue and that is ElOhEl

Population control is a big elephant in the room that needs to be addressed before we could pretend to be concerned with climate change.  The population of earth has tripled (more than tripled by some estimates) during the 20th century.  Not only is that climbing number damaging to the environment and a drain on earth's resources, but there are other, more immediately pragmatic (for society) concerns.  Like, where will these people find jobs?  We can't expect new markets to constantly pop up for these people, and the increased demands in the service industry for serving the new people won't logically cover everyone.  Also, this is just another reason why the gold standard isn't any good--the more people in an economy, the more money there needs to be.  We couldn't even back our money with gold in the 20s (right?), and you think we'd be able to keep it backed with our current population, which has just about tripled since then?

Population control needs to be PUBLICLY TALKED ABOUT.  It is a far more pressing issue than long term climate change.
Well, isn't the western world population ageing? Population control is a bigger problem in 3rd world countries found in Africa (and Asia), especially if we find a cure for AIDS and other diseases.
i

TVC15

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2009, 04:35:07 PM »
The documentary makes me think population control is the only option.  Because terraforming other planets is the only thing thats going to let this process continue and that is ElOhEl

Population control is a big elephant in the room that needs to be addressed before we could pretend to be concerned with climate change.  The population of earth has tripled (more than tripled by some estimates) during the 20th century.  Not only is that climbing number damaging to the environment and a drain on earth's resources, but there are other, more immediately pragmatic (for society) concerns.  Like, where will these people find jobs?  We can't expect new markets to constantly pop up for these people, and the increased demands in the service industry for serving the new people won't logically cover everyone.  Also, this is just another reason why the gold standard isn't any good--the more people in an economy, the more money there needs to be.  We couldn't even back our money with gold in the 20s (right?), and you think we'd be able to keep it backed with our current population, which has just about tripled since then?

Population control needs to be PUBLICLY TALKED ABOUT.  It is a far more pressing issue than long term climate change.
Well, isn't the western world population ageing? Population control is a bigger problem in 3rd world countries found in Africa (and Asia), especially if we find a cure for AIDS and other diseases.

It being an issue in 3rd world countries doesn't lessen the importance of the issue, though.  Being third world countries, they are breeding beds for diseases, and having more targets means that disease will evolve and get worse and stronger.  Lack of population control in poor countries can arguably make more aggressive, jealous societies.

And there's also the weird industrialized semi-3rd world nations like India and China, where the population has skyrocketed especially quickly. 
serge

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2009, 04:58:49 PM »
Looks like it is time to bump up my Eugenics discussion thread.

Yes, population control is a huge issue and won't end well for anyone if it is left unchecked.  There is a finite amount of resources, a finite amount of land in which it is possible for humans to subsist (let alone anything else), and we are reaching that point faster and faster.  You could take measures to lessen the materialistic load from first world and to a lesser extent, developing nations, but you are just pushing the problem back a few decades until mass starvation occurs.
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FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2009, 06:05:07 PM »
The planet will take care of population control by itself.

TVC15

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2009, 06:07:56 PM »
So, we shouldn't be proactive about things if we think the planet will take care of them by itself?  Especially since the most likely thing the planet will do to take care of itself is to create some sort of terrible superplague?
serge

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2009, 06:13:45 PM »
So, we shouldn't be proactive about things if we think the planet will take care of them by itself?  Especially since the most likely thing the planet will do to take care of itself is to create some sort of terrible superplague?

I was thinking more a long the lines of plant not being able to produce enough food if the population gets out of control. I've never heard any theories on super plagues.

TVC15

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2009, 06:17:30 PM »
So, we shouldn't be proactive about things if we think the planet will take care of them by itself?  Especially since the most likely thing the planet will do to take care of itself is to create some sort of terrible superplague?

I was thinking more a long the lines of plant not being able to produce enough food if the population gets out of control. I've never heard any theories on super plagues.

Still, the planet not being able to produce enough food is something we can be proactive about via having discussions on population control.

The plagues argument is what we were talking about above.  Third world countries are places where the population is on the rise, and due to the lack of adequate health care and immunizations, these places are evolutionary playgrounds for diseases. Higher populations mean more targets.
serge

brawndolicious

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2009, 06:54:27 PM »
What? It proposes (a) different monetary system(s) at the end, starting at around the 35minute mark.
My point was that there was no solution that would allow for the current trend of expansion.  Any idea that requires a radical change in the way businesses are run is just blowing smoke up everybody's ass.
The planet will take care of population control by itself.
So we should hand off responsibility of our own society to nature?

Tieno

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2009, 03:09:52 AM »
What? It proposes (a) different monetary system(s) at the end, starting at around the 35minute mark.
My point was that there was no solution that would allow for the current trend of expansion.  Any idea that requires a radical change in the way businesses are run is just blowing smoke up everybody's ass.
So you believe in exponential expansion and everlasting expansion?
Quote
The planet will take care of population control by itself.
So we should hand off responsibility of our own society to nature?
Nature will find a way, probably without us then. It has recovered and changed time and again but we should take responsibility if we want to survive.
i

brawndolicious

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2009, 03:18:30 AM »
So you believe in exponential expansion and everlasting expansion?
Nature will find a way, probably without us then. It has recovered and changed time and again but we should take responsibility if we want to survive.
There's no problem saying that we should reform the current system.  The bullshit is at the end where the government has to do enormous social programs for the sole reason of changing our monetary system.  For all we know, changing the system like that could cause corporations to fail by making it too hard for them to obtain credit.  That's why the documentary sounds really BSy to me when it throws out total hail-mary assumptions at the end.

And what is the point of saying that "nature will find a way"?  That makes it sound like you live off of the land or something.

Tieno

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2009, 04:02:48 AM »
So you believe in exponential expansion and everlasting expansion?
Nature will find a way, probably without us then. It has recovered and changed time and again but we should take responsibility if we want to survive.
There's no problem saying that we should reform the current system.  The bullshit is at the end where the government has to do enormous social programs for the sole reason of changing our monetary system.  For all we know, changing the system like that could cause corporations to fail by making it too hard for them to obtain credit.  That's why the documentary sounds really BSy to me when it throws out total hail-mary assumptions at the end.

And what is the point of saying that "nature will find a way"?  That makes it sound like you live off of the land or something.
The monetary system we have now relies on exponential growth every year: growth in printing money, using up resources, consumption, etc. How can exponential growth continue if so much of it relies on finite and limited resources? If the problem is in the system itself, then how can you fix it without radical change? I don't think we'll have the guts or will to do this until shit really hits the fan though.

Regarding nature, I was agreeing with you. I was basically saying that if we don't take responsibility ourselves we'll probably get in deep shit if we wait till 'nature' balances it out.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 04:04:19 AM by Tieno »
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2009, 09:56:59 AM »
Nature will balance it out...with mass starvation and plagues
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TVC15

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2009, 07:02:18 PM »
The planet will take care of the federal reserve issues.
serge

WrikaWrek

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2009, 03:26:49 PM »
India and China need more gay people.

The west should start exporting fegs to the east, those guys need to stop making 5 kids a head, they are ruining our planet. Gayton to the rescue.

ToxicAdam

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Re: Money Created as Debt: sickening documentary :-X
« Reply #37 on: February 03, 2009, 03:43:29 PM »
The planet will take care of the federal reserve issues.

When the Gaia theory and Libertarianism collide ...