Real talk: Why did Islam stop being a scientific powerhouse?

[TVC15]

Maybe Boogie or someone else well versed in history can help me out. 

Back in the day when Christianity was doing its best to keep the dark ages dark, Islam was kicking major ass in a bunch of different scientific fields.  They even made key contributions to the scientific method itself.  But they had key discoveries in math and astronomy and chemistry far beyond what was going on in the west.  It's like it was a religion of discovery as opposed to Christianity, the religion of putting dead popes on trial.

So what happened?  Today, Islam seems even more conservative than the catholic church.  Was there some key turning point, or was there just a general decline?  I don't know much about the different sects of Islam--did the one that was into science just kinda die off?

Thanks!
-K

[brawndolicious]

Well there's a lot of turmoil in the ME due to oil of course.  I'm guessing that that's holding back the region more than anything.  It seems there would not be the current type of Wahabism or even the Islamic Revolution in Iran if it weren't for oil.

I'm guessing when you get a few fundamentalists with their hand in every pot, everything slows down or goes backwards.

[TVC15]

I uh, mean like 1000 years ago.

[T234]

Too busy walking through drive-thrus.

[MCD]

Oil happened.

[ToxicAdam]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulagu_Khan

??

Those fucking Huns screwed everything up.

[brawndolicious]

I uh, mean like 1000 years ago.

Genghis Khan.  I heard that he took the Middle-East (Persia at least) out of the way so that he could control the trade routes.  He actually tooke over the capital, burned it and all the libraries and universities to the ground, and then made it into farmland.  The guy knew how to rape.

I don't know what he did with the south-western Islamic empires but he did conquer as far west as Hungary before dieing.  He was even planning to take out the rest of Europe since they were weakened after the crusades.  He could have raped two continents easily.

edit: beaten.

[recursivelyenumerable]

ok, i'm on the case, getting my wiki on

perhaps the Mongols had something to do with it?

crap, beaten

[ToxicAdam]

It is kind of sad that my only knowledge of eastern history is when it intersected with the west. I guess that is my fault, because I always gravitated to history classes that dealt with the west (because they were easier).  Or maybe, there is less history left behind because of all the wars and regime changes that happened over the centuries.

[TVC15]

I figured maybe the Crusades had something to do it (to give you guys credit, I did not consider the mongols.  I need to read up on them), but it seems like there was an ideological shift in regards to science, and I'm not sure I can see why being slapped around by the mongols and crusaders would cause this particular sort of shift.

[Flannel Boy]

Well, part of the reason the Islamic world was a scientific powerhouse was because they were competing with Christendom, which had no real scientific advances between 400 and 1100 AD. The Islamic world had access to Ancient Greek texts, which were lost to Europeans until the late Middle Ages. They were competing against blind, deaf children with pasty skin and poor hygiene.

ok, i'm on the case, getting my wiki on

perhaps the Mongols had something to do with it?

crap, beaten

I'm sure the Mongols and the European invaders during the Crusades didn't help. Nor the in-fighting between Sunni and Shia. Or the loss of Islamic Spain.

Philosophically, I have to imagine that at the time, Islamic thinkers believed that science and religion were compatible. How many Muslim thinkers, ones who are actually religious, believe that today? Belief in Evolution isn't wide-spread in the Muslim world. Even in Turkey--a fairly modern, secular country--most don't believe in Evolution.

[etiolate]

Islam had preserved the greek sciences and maths, and continued work on them, but destructive invasions had destroyed libraries and thus texts, and a more conservative sect of islam had begun to influence the muslim regions. Crusades/Mongols, mostly a mongol burning of a library, did the physical destruction, and fear + conservative influence did the intellectual harm.

Then the renaissance happened, and the scientific traditions absorbed by the Persian and Islamic empires ended up returning back to Europe.

I guess, it was just part of the rise and fall that happens to any empire or civilization. The 'golden age' of Islam was over and things were lost.

[TVC15]

Were there really all that many greek + roman texts around?  I assumed most of the good sciencey stuff was destroyed, particularly in the burning of the library of alexandria, which happened several centuries before they made Islam up.

[brawndolicious]

Actually, the Christian Monks also worked to preserve and translate the old Greek texts so it wasn't like the europeanss had no access to those philosophies.

I think I heard that Genghis' plan for Persia was to just burn and kill every living thing since Genghis didn't have the resources to leave some of his army in those cities to stand guard.  Genghis probably didn't have too much use for Persia's military technology after he took over China and after he took over Hungary, the strongest Christian nation at the time, the rest of Europe was about to fall but thankfully he croaked.

Today, I know that they do teach evolution in muslim schools and I don't think that it's considered controversial at all.  I've never heard a non-christian dispute evolution anyways.

[Tieno]

Actually, the Christian Monks also worked to preserve and translate the old Greek texts so it wasn't like the europeanss had no access to those philosophies.

I think I heard that Genghis' plan for Persia was to just burn and kill every living thing since Genghis didn't have the resources to leave some of his army in those cities to stand guard.  Genghis probably didn't have too much use for Persia's military technology after he took over China and after he took over Hungary, the strongest Christian nation at the time, the rest of Europe was about to fall but thankfully he croaked.

Today, I know that they do teach evolution in muslim schools and I don't think that it's considered controversial at all.  I've never heard a non-christian dispute evolution anyways.

My mom was a teacher in a school with largely (Muslim) immigrant population and the idea that we came from apes was preposterous to them. They were very much opposed to the idea of evolution.

[Flannel Boy]

Actually, the Christian Monks also worked to preserve and translate the old Greek texts so it wasn't like the europeanss had no access to those philosophies.

Palin's library has more books than a typical European library during the dark ages. Aristotle, for example, was completely lost to Europeans until he was reintroduced via Arabic translators in the 12th century. And while the marriage of and Catholicism and Aristotelianism wasn't completely healthy (it kept the geo-centric view of the solar system alive) it was better than what Europeans had. It gave them some logic and basic empiricism.


"I've never heard a non-christian dispute evolution anyways."

http://www.harunyahya.com/books/darwinism/atlas_creation/atlas_creation_01.php

edit:
belief in Evolution

note Tukey's position. I really doubt Yemen is better!

[TVC15]

Yeah, the christian monks of the dark ages basically copied and recopied the text of the bible, occasionally adding their own margin illustrations.

[Flannel Boy]

Yeah, the christian monks of the dark ages basically copied and recopied the text of the bible, occasionally adding their own margin illustrations.

And after that it didn't get much better. They simply started writing commentaries about the newly introduced Ancient Greek and modern Arab writers, mostly trying to square the new thinkers with the Bible.

[brawndolicious]

My experience with muslim beliefs on evolution is based on second-generation immigrants.

What I've heard about Turkey makes it seem really weird like how even though it's a muslim nation, it's illegal for a politician to wear a scarf in a government building.

[Flannel Boy]

My experience with muslim beliefs on evolution is based on second-generation immigrants.

Any idea why a group of second-generation immigrants raised in well educated immigrant families (most Muslim immigrants in the US have university degrees) in Northern California might not be a random sample.

[brawndolicious]

no, I have no idea.

[TVC15]

Any idea why a group of second-generation immigrants raised in well educated immigrant families (most Muslim immigrants in the US have university degrees) in Northern California might not be a random sample.

So I have to a second-generation immigrant raised in well educated immigrant families to be educated and acknowledged? Do I look like an monkey ape to you? :saudicry

EDIT: unless I've misunderstood your post, which might prove you right

Do you really think your average Saudi would be posting on a forum where the answer to all of life's problems is homobuttsex?  You are clearly abnormal!

[TVC15]

Freud would call your behavior here an unconscious manifestation of your death drive, also known as thanatos.

[TVC15]

Why not unconscious manifestation of my gay sex drive? Certainly if I were a better Muslim I'd loathe this place... yet I don't.

It might be an unconscious desire of your gay sex drive, but since your apparently instinctual gay sex drive isn't congruent with the belief system you were raised with, there is conflict, and you choose to act out in the way of making risky (but not very risky) posts on a message board that could feasibly get you in some sort of trouble.  So there might be gay sex drives involved, but there could also be something else at play.

[TVC15]

...but there could also be something else at play.

Are you implying that I'm on a mission to clear up the name and the misconceptions around Islam, and perhaps try to convert (or recruit) some of you?

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Himumu

[close]

No no, not at all.  But I don't want to inflict the forum with my amateur ego psychology, so I'll shut up unless you want to take it to PM :p

[Fresh Prince]

Poverty?

[Draft]

Wow. Absolutely all the Mongol's fault. Fascinating.

"Iraq in 1258 was very different from present day Iraq. Its agriculture was supported by canal networks thousands of years old. Baghdad was one of the most brilliant intellectual centers in the world. The Mongol destruction of Baghdad was a psychological blow from which Islam never recovered. Already Islam was turning inward, becoming more suspicious of conflicts between faith and reason and more conservative. With the sack of Baghdad, the intellectual flowering of Islam was snuffed out. Imagining the Athens of Pericles and Aristotle obliterated by a nuclear weapon begins to suggest the enormity of the blow. The Mongols filled in the irrigation canals and left Iraq too depopulated to restore them." (Steven Dutch)

[Draft]

Holy fuck. The Mongol's were bad men.

"From the King of Kings of the East and West, the Great Khan. To Qutuz the Mamluk, who fled to escape our swords. You should think of what happened to other countries and submit to us. You have heard how we have conquered a vast empire and have purified the earth of the disorders that tainted it. We have conquered vast areas, massacring all the people. You cannot escape from the terror of our armies. Where can you flee? What road will you use to escape us? Our horses are swift, our arrows sharp, our swords like thunderbolts, our hearts as hard as the mountains, our soldiers as numerous as the sand. Fortresses will not detain us, nor arms stop us. Your prayers to God will not avail against us. We are not moved by tears nor touched by lamentations. Only those who beg our protection will be safe. Hasten your reply before the fire of war is kindled. Resist and you will suffer the most terrible catastrophes. We will shatter your mosques and reveal the weakness of your God and then we will kill your children and your old men together. At present you are the only enemy against whom we have to march."

[huckleberry]

TVC you really should read about the Mongols....absolutely the most bloodthirsty group of individuals.  They changed the course of history in every country that they touched. From China to Russia their influence was incontrovertible. The relative peace that the Baghdad caliphate enjoyed was completely shattered by the Mongols - they destroyed so much and Islam has never recovered. 


They were the fucking Borg of the 12th and 13th centuries.





** from what I remember Hulago Khan had a wife who was a coptic christian who begged him to allow the chrisitians of Baghdad to live....the mongols told them to go inside their churches and they would be spared.....everyone else got the murder and rape....lost of it.

[huckleberry]

I don't know if they were solely responsible for the Baghdad caliphate collapse but up until the Mongol invasion it was flourishing.  Cannot remember whether they had reached peace with Cairo and Syria or they had been defeated...but Baghdad was able to flourish because of the relative peace.  The Mongols changed all this and plunged the Middle East into its own Dark Ages.


I don't defend them (the Mongols) but I do think its quite fascinating how they just swelled from relative obscurity to change the destiny of so many different peoples.  Hell, I shutter to think what would have happened had they not eventually been absorbed into Chinese culture....

[huckleberry]

Well that can certainly be said of alot of peoples and cultures....and it is true.


Russia is a prime example of where the Mongols were met with resistance from different cities and kingdoms to work together to stop them.  Actually, come to think of it, Mongol treatment of Russian city states and their eventual banding together to defeat them, was instrumental in helping to create Russian identity.

[Phoenix Dark]

remember when Africa was the most lush, influential land in the world? what happened?

the white man

[Greatness Gone]

distinguished mentally-challenged.

nsfw

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[close]

[Fresh Prince]

If my roommate posted on EB he'd be defending the Monguls for some reason he thinks that they're misrepresented and not as bad as everyone think. See he read a "book" that says so, and decided that all the others were filled with lies and written with bitter tears.

I can't remember his arguments, but some had some merit. I still believe that they weren't solely responsible for the collapse, I could be wrong though...

Mongols joined the East and West through the Silk Road and gave citizens peace throughout the regions they conquered. Plus they allowed all faiths to co-exist since Genghis Khan thought he had a mandate from God and such. 

That's why the Genghis was so big on this, 'surrender or die' thing since he thought he was doing God's will and bringing the people's of the world together or something. Blaming Mongols for killing Islamic intellectualism *smh*. They had hundreds of years to reclaim that back 

[Diunx]

That pic would be a smash hit on gaf.

[Oblivion]

Cool thread. I've been wondering about this myself, for a good while.

[Joe Molotov]

You have to play Assassin's Creed 2 to find out.

[brawndolicious]

Mongols joined the East and West through the Silk Road and gave citizens peace throughout the regions they conquered. Plus they allowed all faiths to co-exist since Genghis Khan thought he had a mandate from God and such. 

That's why the Genghis was so big on this, 'surrender or die' thing since he thought he was doing God's will and bringing the people's of the world together or something. Blaming Mongols for killing Islamic intellectualism *smh*. They had hundreds of years to reclaim that back 

They didn't exactly have democracies back then to vote on things like this.  No empire (that I know of) surrendered to him until he raped and pillaged at least one major city.  Be it other Mongol tribes, China, Persia, Hungary, etc.  Most likely, he would have done a lot of damage to Europe if he lived another 20 years.