I fucking hate Creationists

[Cheebs]

like us hoomans, i thought (was taught at school) that the bible and quaran both evolved out of many other ancient stories (creation of the world , noahs ark etc were all lifted from elsewhere)

Yes, most of those stories have been around far longer than either religion. Both religions took elements of ancient ones.

[Dickie Dee]

The Bible had been pretty well established by the time the Quran came out.

No doubt just about any bible fairytale has it's roots to earlier oral traditions

spoiler (click to show/hide)

pre-placed by Lucifer to discredit God's word

[close]

[Flannel Boy]

Yes, most of those stories have been around far longer than either religion. Both religions took elements of ancient ones.

You really can't use that argument against them, while you guys say they "evolved" and "took elements", others say what were you expecting?

To them these are all historical facts and having been told before both religions only asserts to them that they really happened. It's when those stories break-out after the the religions started that they would get suspicious.

"If the story of **** really happened, why haven't I heard about it before now?". See what I mean?

The stories are altered significantly, suggesting that it isn't a retelling of fact, but a borrowing to create new folklore. For example, elements of the Flood Story change depending on the culture and the religion telling it. Some involve animals (I'll never know how Noah managed to get the marsupials on the ark), others don't. Some involve divine causes, others don't. Some involve a landing in a mountain, others don't.

And, superstitious people hit with unexpected, catastrophic floods don't need to hear other versions to create their own. Belonging to pre-scientific cultures, they weren't going to come up with natural explanations for the floods. And over time, such stories are naturally going to be embellished.

[Phoenix Dark]

I've always wanted to ask, how do Christian creationists describe Adam?

Just a dude who was coerced into sin by Eve.

Actually, he was standing right beside Eve when she was being tempted and did nothing. 

Uh I'm pretty sure he wasn't. She was tempted then brought the fruit (grape) to Adam...

[Phoenix Dark]

Bible doesn't describe Adam's looks. Regardless, the origin story is a metaphor, not literal there is no Adam nor Eve. Even the Catholic Church recognizes that.

Really? So the whole story about them in the garden is also a metaphor and not mentioned in the bible?

The Quran has a lot of stuff about them, about their creation, their first sin, and their first kids (stuff that would make fistful blush).

All of that is in the bible but it is recognized as pure metaphor for most christians, not actual history.

What the fuck are you talking about? "Most" Christians? Yea right

[Phoenix Dark]

Creationists like bringing up the universal relevance of the flood story but totally ignore the lack of any historical evidence of other major biblical stories. Like the 7 plagues, "Ramses", Jews building the pyramids...the entire story

[bud]

Creationists like bringing up the universal relevance of the flood story but totally ignore the lack of any historical evidence of other major biblical stories. Like the 7 plagues, "Ramses", Jews building the pyramids...the entire story

i always thought you were a creationist. how religious are you?

[Flannel Boy]

Well if I'm not mistaken Muslims think that almost every religion (at least the ones they consider as true ie monotheistic) has told those "historical" events accurately but it was the people who altered and embellished those stories throughout the period between each religion's arrival, and when a new "true" monotheistic religion arrives, it (allegedly) sets the story straight.Then the cycle of altering and embellishment continues.

That's how the people I know explain the different versions.

Yeah . . . finally setting things straight. Fuck, this happens within religions all the time, too. See the various schisms and revivals within Christianity. Fuck, Jesus was setting God's teachings straight to begin with.

 nice trick.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

The Adam and Eve story is so flawed anyway.

If Adam and Eve had no way to judge between right and wrong before they ate the forbidden fruit, how were they supposed to know what they did was wrong? After all, the snake was the one who told them the truth, not God (God said they would die if they ate the fruit, the snake said they would know good and evil like God). Kind of a big plot hole for a book considered literally true by so many people.

As for the Catholics who believe that Adam and Eve is just a story, why do they believe in Original Sin? In fact, Original Sin is denied within the Bible.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ezekial%2018:20;&version=31;

"The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him."

[Phoenix Dark]

Creationists like bringing up the universal relevance of the flood story but totally ignore the lack of any historical evidence of other major biblical stories. Like the 7 plagues, "Ramses", Jews building the pyramids...the entire story

i always thought you were a creationist. how religious are you?

Meh, no. I'm not 100% convinced in the story. I can't say I'm 100% convinced with Malek's prescribed origin-of-the-universe either

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Those pictures are completely indecisive.

You might as well try to convert people to your religion using Pascal's Wager.

[Phoenix Dark]

http://noahsarksearch.com/ararat.htm

[Cheebs]

There is no such thing as Noah's Ark that stored all the animals. Just like there is no whale that swallowed Jonah. There are many historical facts in the old testament/quran , but a lot is just simple folk lore stolen and changed by other cultures. The quran, like all religious documents were written by regular average men. Just like those who created Zeus and the endless other Gods/Religions that disappeared over time. Assuming humans survive long enough people will look at Islam/Christianity/etc with the same sense of "lol wat were they thinking" in thousands of years like we do with ancient religions today.

Although Jesus was indeed a pretty awesome dude.

Sadly, from first hand experience of going to christian schools so many christians don't appreciate him as the guy he was, one with a great message. And just use his name for their own self-satisfaction and reassurance.

[Cheebs]

Mohammad was way cooler, not bringing dead people back, healing, and giving blind people their sight back cool, but like cool in a "I want to hang out with you" kind of way. I mean come on, angels enjoyed his company immensely.

Well, I not talking about the miracles and all that stuff with angels and the like that. Not the storybook character he has become over time. I meant Jesus as he really was as a historical figure and his message and preaching.

A great human being, which sadly is one not appreaciated enough.  There are many christians out there who pray to Jesus, have a little Jesus cross necklace and so forth but couldn't tell you shit about his actual message to humanity.

[Cheebs]

I wouldn't call him my guy, he is just a guy who in history I think had a brilliant message. As much my guy as say Ghandi is my guy. No doubt Mohammad existed and probably was a swell guy, I just love Jesus's message about helping the poor...etc. Part of what he preached makes me the godless librul who loves a govt. who helps the poor that I am today in a way.

But in the end my view on religion is simply that. I do hope there is a God, a after-life, some sort of "meaning". I just think life is too short to worry about it or trying to find ways to fit it in in in a ever secularizing world that is constantly proving elements of it incorrect. If there is a God/After Life then well as long as I try to do the right thing and am a good guy I hope I'd get there. But if it is the after life of most religions, in which you have to believe in their God and worship him then well..I'd be glad to not go. I wouldn't want to be in the company of a God who was that self-absorbed.

[Phoenix Dark]

Mohammad was way cooler, not bringing dead people back, healing, and giving blind people their sight back cool, but like cool in a "I want to hang out with you" kind of way. I mean come on, angels enjoyed his company immensely.

Well, I not talking about the miracles and all that stuff with angels and the like that. Not the storybook character he has become over time. I meant Jesus as he really was as a historical figure and his message and preaching.

A great human being, which sadly is one not appreaciated enough.  There are many christians out there who pray to Jesus, have a little Jesus cross necklace and so forth but couldn't tell you shit about his actual message to humanity.

His message was repent and be baptized for the kingdom is at hand. Christians have that part down, unfortunately they don't realize he wasn't talking to them.

There are tons of charities in this country and abroad which follow his other messages.

[Cheebs]

There are tons of charities in this country and abroad which follow his other messages.

I know and that is a good thing. People like Mother Teresa and the like "got" Jesus. That is why I didn't say christians in general, like some holier than thou atheists at gaf would. I am just saying in my experience there are many oblivious to Jesus, the man yet worship him.

[TVC15]

If Gandhi is your guy, Cheebs, maybe you should spell his name correctly.  

I think my nigra is Lao Tse

[Cheebs]

If Gandhi is your guy, Cheebs, maybe you should spell his name correctly.  

I think my nigra is Lao Tse

Well he isn't.   I was just using him to show I don't think calling a historical figure someone who is from my side or whatever makes much sense.

[Dickie Dee]

Well duh, religion for most is just a team jersey for them to wear.

Expecting shitty irrational people who'll gravitate to things for shitty irrational reasons and then expect them to suddenly become good people is not realistic. Most take to religion so they can walk around with <- this face all day.

[Cheebs]

Well duh, religion for most is just a team jersey for them to wear.

Expecting shitty irrational people who'll gravitate to things for shitty irrational reasons and then expect them to suddenly become good people is not realistic. Most take to religion so they can walk around with <- this face all day.

Yep. Which is part of the reason why organized religion hurts my head, it often leads to that. Belief is God is fine, awesome, do as you please. But trying to focus on one organized official one as the one you follow as the "right" one is just so....small minded.

[duckman2000]

"Spirituality" lulz
Followers of Jesus' example, double lulz

https://www.prayercross.com/ver30/index.asp?refcode=pc30

[Cheebs]

[duckman2000]

Seriously. I mean, I'm not even a little bit Christian, but I say that if having it around means that people adhere to some pretty sensible advice, then that's great. But the way it's practiced, from the call of raising an army of Jesus and fighting science, to jewelry and fancy dispensers of water bottled in some well of great mythical, er, historical value, it just misses the whole fucking point. With the way they are practicing and preaching their "gospel" now, they are little more than empowered, superstitious and frightened twits.

My grandmother used to go to these benefits for the starving kids in Africa or something (Live Aid era). At the end of the auctions, the pastor would list the most generous ones, and demand applause for these upstanding church goers. A whole church full of people missing the fucking point.

[TVC15]

If someone buys me that thousand dollar cross, I will wear it all the time.

[duckman2000]

I'd wear it upside down

[Oblivion]

Re: The serpent/snake with Adam and Eve. Wasn't there really no real reference to that creature in the bible? Didn't it only appear in the book Paradise Lost and somehow just eventually became meshed alongside the myth?

[Guybrush Threepwood]

^ Wait, are you sure you don't mean the serpent being Satan?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%203;&version=9;

The King James version of the bible predates Paradise Lost by 56 years.

[Oblivion]

^ Wait, are you sure you don't mean the serpent being Satan?

Probably. There was something about the Adam/Eve story that was in Paradise Lost but not in the bible.

[Fresh Prince]

Jewish 'mythology' refers the serpent as Lilith, Adam's first wife who would not submit to him, hence gets turned into a half serpent half woman and mother of all witches. Anyway interesting shit.