DIE TOPIC YOU DON'T BELONG IN THIS WORLD

[Eric P]

From The Times
March 9, 2009
Believers in free markets are fighting back
Regulation not greed has pushed banks to the edge of ruin
Eamonn Butler

“If you bound the arms and legs of gold-medal swimmer Michael Phelps, weighed him down with chains, threw him in a pool and he sank, you wouldn't call it a ‘failure of swimming'. So, when markets have been weighted down by inept and excessive regulation, why call this a ‘failure of capitalism'?”

That view, expressed by the George Mason University professor Peter Boettke, found much favour among the free-market eggheads who assembled in New York this weekend to discuss the financial crisis. Up to now the Keynesians have made the running. Greed, they say, has brought down the world economy. Only massive public spending can revive it. And with the Masters of the Universe now gasping on the floor, the G20 summit in April will give them a final kick in the tax havens. That'll teach them.

But now the believers in free markets and small government have regrouped. The meeting was called by the Mont Pelerin Society, founded in 1947 to preserve liberal ideas. Early members included Milton Friedman, F.A. Hayek and George Stigler. Their view - as expressed by The Ascent of Money author Niall Ferguson - is that capitalism isn't dead, though the global banking regulations embodied in Basle 2 should be. It took regulators ten years to perfect Basle 2, but far from making things safer for bank customers, it pushed banks to the brink of ruin.

When the banks discovered that their “assets” were riddled with junk, everyone ran scared. Nobody knew exactly how “toxic” it all was, so the banks couldn't unload it on to anyone. Their “assets” became worthless. Under the Basle rules, they had to stop lending. Hello, credit crunch.

“This is a balance-sheet crisis,” the billionaire and former presidential candidate Steve Forbes told the gathering. “If you had to sell your house today, you wouldn't get much for it. That doesn't mean it's worthless.” Banks are largely solvent - it's regulation that threatens to bankrupt them.

“We need to sell off, split up or close down the zombie banks,” says Bill Beach, senior policy boffin at Washington's Heritage Foundation. Next, he says, we need to encourage business, not load it, like Michael Phelps, with burdens. That means lower taxes, particularly business taxes, and less of the regulation that discouraged firms employing people.

Occasional crises are the cost of the prosperity that entrepreneurial capitalism brings. Try to eliminate risk, and you eliminate entrepreneurship itself.

- Dr Eamonn Butler is director of the Adam Smith Institute. His book, The Rotten State of Britain, is published this month

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5870760.ece

[FlameOfCallandor]

How will free market capitalism solve 3rd world poverty, wars and enviromental problems?

*crickets*

/thread

First of all its not capitalism's responsibility to solve anything. Second of all.

In the US, the Federal and state governments pay farmers to NOT GROW FOOD, in order to artificially inflate prices. That's what they mean when they say "farm subsidies". They also set minimum prices for food...it's actually illegal to sell milk, one of the most universally healthy and useful foods, below a certain price!

This raises food prices above what the poorer fifth in the US can afford, even though they're more prosperous than the poorest fifth in most other countries. Then the government hands out billions of dollars in "free food", via food stamps, WIC, et cetera. This extra money is, itself, a form of food subsidy, raising the dollars available for food, and therefore causing food prices to increase.

In other countries, governments set price controls on food directly, which destroys the supply/demand system, so that they end up with food shortages...having to beg for food aid from the US, even while their own farms simply sit idle, or worse, actually are EXPORTING food to neighboring countries (that lack price controls) while their own people starve.

[FlameOfCallandor]

http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13185404
Atlas felt a sense of déjà vu

BOOKS do not sell themselves: that is what films are for. “The Reader”, the book that inspired the Oscar-winning film, has shot up the bestseller lists. Another recent publishing success, however, has had more help from Washington, DC, than Hollywood. That book is Ayn Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged”.

Reviled in some circles and mocked in others, Rand’s 1957 novel of embattled capitalism is a favourite of libertarians and college students. Lately, though, its appeal has been growing. According to data from TitleZ, a firm that tracks bestseller rankings on Amazon, an online retailer, the book’s 30-day average Amazon rank was 127 on February 21st, well above its average over the past two years of 542. On January 13th the book’s ranking was 33, briefly besting President Barack Obama’s popular tome, “The Audacity of Hope”.

Tellingly, the spikes in the novel’s sales coincide with the news (see chart). The first jump, in September 2007, followed dramatic interest-rate cuts by central banks, and the Bank of England’s bail-out of Northern Rock, a troubled mortgage lender. The October 2007 rise happened two days after the Bush Administration announced an initiative to coax banks to assist subprime borrowers. A year later, sales of the book rose after America’s Treasury said that it would use a big chunk of the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Programme to buy stakes in nine large banks. Debate over Mr Obama’s stimulus plan in January gave the book another lift. And sales leapt once again when the stimulus plan passed and Mr Obama announced a new mortgage-modification plan.

Whenever governments intervene in the market, in short, readers rush to buy Rand’s book. Why? The reason is explained by the name of a recently formed group on Facebook, the world’s biggest social-networking site: “Read the news today? It’s like ‘Atlas Shrugged’ is happening in real life”. The group, and an expanding chorus of fretful bloggers, reckon that life is imitating art.

ome were reminded of Rand’s gifted physicist, Robert Stadler, cravenly disavowing his faith in reason for political favour, when Alan Greenspan, an acolyte of Rand’s, testified before a congressional committee last October that he had found a “flaw in the model” of securitisation. And with pirates hijacking cargo ships, politicians castigating corporate chieftains, riots in Europe and slowing international trade—all of which are depicted in the book—this melancholy meme has plenty of fodder.

Even if Washington does not keep the book’s sales booming, Hollywood might. A film version is rumoured to be in the works for release in 2011. But by then, a film may feel superfluous to Rand’s most loyal fans; events unfolding around them will have been dramatisation enough.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Freedom is so yesterday. Collective responsibility and shared wealth poverty are whats hot!

[Great Rumbler]

Do people no understand what the word "compromise" means? Free-market capitalism and complete government control are both equally bad. This latest round of problems is because companies ran wild with all sorts of crazy schemes and the government sat back and said "Sorry, we can't get involved. The market will police itself" and it failed miserably. On the other hand, having the government stick its nose in every corporation and market and you'll end up stalling development and innovation along with a lot of other issues. That's why there needs to be a middle ground, unfortunately neither side seems to want that and I'm not sure that I have much faith in the ability of Congress and corporations to have any idea what that middle ground is supposed to be.

[FlameOfCallandor]

This latest round of problems is because companies ran wild with all sorts of crazy schemes and the government sat back and said "Sorry, we can't get involved.

No.


http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/18/fannie-freddie-regulation-oped-cx_yb_0718brook.html

The Federal government set up two massive lending institutions Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (the F in each name stands for Federal), which they then ordered to hand out money for home loans to people who couldn't possibly afford them, and ordered to overlook the government's own minimum standards (like the 80%/20% subprime lending trick). When this caused the present failure...the tiny remaining freedom in the banking industry was blamed.

[Kestastrophe]

In the US, the Federal and state governments pay farmers to NOT GROW FOOD, in order to artificially inflate prices. That's what they mean when they say "farm subsidies". They also set minimum prices for food...it's actually illegal to sell milk, one of the most universally healthy and useful foods, below a certain price!

This raises food prices above what the poorer fifth in the US can afford, even though they're more prosperous than the poorest fifth in most other countries. Then the government hands out billions of dollars in "free food", via food stamps, WIC, et cetera. This extra money is, itself, a form of food subsidy, raising the dollars available for food, and therefore causing food prices to increase.

In other countries, governments set price controls on food directly, which destroys the supply/demand system, so that they end up with food shortages...having to beg for food aid from the US, even while their own farms simply sit idle, or worse, actually are EXPORTING food to neighboring countries (that lack price controls) while their own people starve.

Well, it's certainly not ideal, but surely you realize the economics behind these policies. Creating price floors for food commodities transfers consumer surplus to private producer surplus, albeit at the hand of efficiency loss. This is necessary because food commodity markets are extremely competetive and there is little to no profit, and thus not much incentive for farmers to continue operations (typically break even). The excess producer surplus creates an incentive for farmers. There is more going on here, but this is as simple an economic explanation as I can come up with.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Governments should enforce rules on companies that benefit all people.

But for the most part government is incapable of this.

Think raising the minimum wage is universally good? Tell that to the people who get laid off because the company can no longer afford them.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Look guys, I wish government was some magical force that worked exactly like it was intended to. I really do, but thats a fantasy. The reality is that most government endeavors are terribly inefficient and often produce unexpected side effects that end up causing more problems.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Companies many times lay off people not because they can't afford them but because profit 'isn't high enough to satisfy  stockholders'.

A company exists solely to satisfy stockholders or owners or whoever is controlling it. What's your point.

[Kestastrophe]

Look guys, I wish government was some magical force that worked exactly like it was intended to. I really do, but thats a fantasy. The reality is that most government endeavors are terribly inefficient and often produce unexpected side effects that end up causing more problems.

I don't get how you can see this, but at the same time ignore that the same thing holds true for free markets  .

Kosma, I have no idea wtf you are talking about

[FlameOfCallandor]

The big problem is free market capitalism which exploits the working class on all continents.

And the working class exploits companies for money. It's a beautiful system.

[FlameOfCallandor]

I don't get how you can see this, but at the same time ignore that the same thing holds true for free markets  .

I'm not saying capitalism is 100% perfect but at least within that system there is always a plethora of choices. If you dont like the way something works you can find a new business or even start your own.

Tell what happens if you dont like the way your government works and decide not to pay taxes.

[Eric P]

I'm not saying capitalism is 100% perfect but at least within that system there is always a plethora of choices.

giggle giggle

[FlameOfCallandor]

There's nothing beautiful about it.

You know how in the South of the US the poor whites and blacks were played out against each other using the race card? (When it would have been logical to stick together and fight 'the man')

That's whats happening right now on international scale. People all across the world are being convinced that they should accept shit living standards or lower wages, because otherwise the companies might leave to another place. Poor people are being played out against each other and get more poor so that the companies can reap profit.

Oh god. There isn't a rollseyes gif big enough for you.

[Kestastrophe]

If you dont like the way something works you can find a new business or even start your own.

Again, it would be nice if it actually worked that way  :'(. I don't know how anyone can champion a meritocracy. Everything in my experience has proven otherwise.

[Great Rumbler]

This latest round of problems is because companies ran wild with all sorts of crazy schemes and the government sat back and said "Sorry, we can't get involved.

No.


http://www.forbes.com/2008/07/18/fannie-freddie-regulation-oped-cx_yb_0718brook.html

The Federal government set up two massive lending institutions Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (the F in each name stands for Federal), which they then ordered to hand out money for home loans to people who couldn't possibly afford them, and ordered to overlook the government's own minimum standards (like the 80%/20% subprime lending trick). When this caused the present failure...the tiny remaining freedom in the banking industry was blamed.

Did the federal government also order them to repackage those loans and sell them to other companies? Did the federal government order them to issues insurance for massive amounts of debt that everyone should have known would never be paid back? Did the federal government order rating companies to give blatantly unstable debt AAA ratings?

Come on now.

[FlameOfCallandor]

No but the federal government sure is rewarding them for it.

[Human Snorenado]

Guys, guys, guys.  Why are you trying to reason with it?  Doing so is going to bear as much fruit as trying to help OJ find "the real killer".

[Barry Egan]

Look guys, I wish government was some magical force that worked exactly like it was intended to. I really do, but thats a fantasy. The reality is that most government endeavors are terribly inefficient and often produce unexpected side effects that end up causing more problems.

I don't get how you can see this, but at the same time ignore that the same thing holds true for free markets  .

It's pretty astounding

[Van Cruncheon]

oh god, the claim that the cra had anything to do with this crisis has been completely and utterly debunked.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Free market enterprises fail and are forgotten. State endeavors have a habit of sticking around long past their welcome and most of the time never go away.

In fact up until two years ago Texas still has a state office position for leather rawhide inspector. 

[FlameOfCallandor]

What's exactly rolleyes worthy about my comment FOC?

That I would like companies to distribute the wealth they earn amongst the many instead of the few?

No the fact that you think you live in a fantasy land of equal distribution of anything.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Kosma tell me the difference of what you are describing and

"From each according their ability and to each according to their need"

[FlameOfCallandor]

Uhm obviously I don't it's like that, doesn't change the fact that I would want it to be like that.

Yeah I wish life was like church camp too, where we all would sit around the fire and tell each other how special each and everyone one of is! And then afterwords some magical force would bring us food to eat.

[Human Snorenado]

Uhm obviously I don't it's like that, doesn't change the fact that I would want it to be like that.

Yeah I wish life was like church camp too, where we all would sit around the fire and tell each other how special each and everyone one of is! And then afterwords some magical force would bring us food to eat.

...

...

...

A magical force, like some great big Invisible Hand?

[Barry Egan]

It's absolutely hilarious to see a Libertarian lecturing someone else on not adhering to reality.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Uhm obviously I don't it's like that, doesn't change the fact that I would want it to be like that.

Yeah I wish life was like church camp too, where we all would sit around the fire and tell each other how special each and everyone one of is! And then afterwords some magical force would bring us food to eat.

...

...

...

A magical force, like some great big Invisible Hand?

You would think that the free market is magic. 

[FlameOfCallandor]

The system wasn't perfect by far and it's good it crumbled. But the free market capitalist system should crumble too , because just as implemented communism it's not fair or viable.

Life isnt fair.

How is it not viable?

spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Black Book of Communism

Using unofficial estimates he cites a death toll which totals 94 million, not counting the "excess deaths" (decrease of the population due to lower than the expected birth rate). The breakdown of the number of deaths given by Courtois is as follows:
20 million in the Soviet Union
65 million in the People's Republic of China
1 million in Vietnam
2 million in North Korea
2 million in Cambodia
1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe
150,000 in Latin America
1.7 million in Africa
1.5 million in Afghanistan
10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international communist movement and communist parties not in power."

The book claims that Communist regimes are responsible for a greater number of deaths than any other political ideal or movement, including Nazism. The statistics of victims includes executions, intentional destruction of population by starvation, and deaths resulting from deportations, physical confinement, or through forced labor.

[close]

[Kestastrophe]

smh

What are the "forces" through which the free market operates? Objectivity and acting in one's self interest.

But what if humans are incapable of acting in their own best interest, as history has repeatedly shown and of which there exists extensive literature (in fact, behavioral finance is very recent area of research). I don't get how you fail to account for this, but still champion the ideal.

[FlameOfCallandor]

smh

What are the "forces" through which the free market operates?

Individuals.

[Kestastrophe]

it was rhetorical, I answered my own question

[FlameOfCallandor]

Look what is on digg today.

"Joseph Stalin meant when he said "One dead is a tragedy, one million is a statistic""

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[FlameOfCallandor]

Where's the invisible hand to feed them?

Moderate Malnutrition Kills Millions Of Children Needlessly

ScienceDaily (July 1, 2003) — ITHACA, N.Y. -- About 90 percent of child deaths worldwide occur in just 42 countries -- and about one-fourth of these deaths occur before age 5 in the poorest countries, such as Angola and Niger.
See also:
Health & Medicine

Yet, 8 million of the 11 million childhood deaths worldwide each year could easily be prevented, says a Cornell University expert, writing in the authoritative medical journal The Lancet . That's because almost 60 percent of deaths of children under 5 in the developing world are due to malnutrition and its interactive effects on preventable diseases.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm not arguining pro communist btw, just anti establishment, so your data about the dark side of communism is moot. Cause I was never in favour of that kind of system anyway.

[close]

Lots of things can be prevented. Most car crashes could probably be prevented. You don't punish an entire group because of it.

Does it suck that children all over the world starve. Yes it does.
Is it your fault or my fault or anyone's fault? No it's not.

[FlameOfCallandor]

Okay back to work for me. I leave you with some awesome quotes from Churchill.


Some see private enterprise as a predatory target to be shot, others as a cow to be milked, but few are those who see it as a sturdy horse pulling the wagon.
The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
We contend that for a nation to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.

[ShogunOfFear]

Big government is working so well in Europe, just ask Britain.     Perhaps that's why they were given a basket of cheap DVD's as a gift, soon they won't be able to afford Blueray.


The free market nor big government can cure hunger on a global scale.  Not sure where that idea is coming from.  I have an idea though, people could start having less kids, its slow, but over time might help a bit.

[Ganhyun]

Big government is working so well in Europe, just ask Britain.     Perhaps that's why they were given a basket of cheap DVD's as a gift, soon they won't be able to afford Blueray.


The free market nor big government can cure hunger on a global scale.  Not sure where that idea is coming from.  I have an idea though, people could start having less kids, its slow, but over time might help a bit.

IAWTP

[ShogunOfFear]

With a big spending labour party, with much more control over certain things than the US government 

[ShogunOfFear]

Labour’s purpose is fairness: fair rules, fair chances and a fair say for everyone.

 

{In 1995 we set out our values in Clause IV of the Labour Party’s constitution:

 

‘The Labour Party is a democratic socialist party. It believes that by the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more than we achieve alone, so as to create for each of us the means to realise our true potential and for all of us a community in which power, wealth and opportunity are in the hands of the many, not the few.’

 

Those democratic values have guided us through eleven years in government: everything from the large canvas of economic stability, full employment and record investment in public services, to the fine detail of the minimum wage, free museum entry and civil partnerships.}

For your reference from their site.  No I'm laughing because you mistook the whole post.  The DVD line was a joke.  What I find funny is that you think government can cure world hunger, can they rid the world of murder and rape too? 

[recursivelyenumerable]

wat

[Barry Egan]

this thread is a headache to read

[Human Snorenado]

What I find funny is that you think government can cure world hunger, can they rid the world of murder and rape too? 

So we shouldn't bother trying, then?  That's what I can never understand from conservatives.  "The govt. is a large, drunken octopus!  There's no way it can effectively do ANYTHING!"  Well, not true.  And when it's obvious that the free market has no incentive or desire to do certain things that the public wants (like, you know, not paint kids toys with lead paint, put poison in our food and our pets food, etc etc) then govt. has a responsibility to step into the void.  If it doesn't, then you get something like the past 8 years. 

I also find it comical that conservatives will point to the ineffectiveness of the federal govt. after almost 30 years of trying to starve it to death.  "They can't maintain roads and bridges!" shriek the ostriches at conservative think tanks and the like.  Well, yeah.  No shit.  After your personal Jesus Ronald Reagan stopped paying to maintain them, wtf did you THINK was gonna happen?  Guess the Invisible Hand didn't get the memo to take care of that one, huh.

[Ganhyun]

What I find funny is that you think government can cure world hunger, can they rid the world of murder and rape too? 

So we shouldn't bother trying, then?  That's what I can never understand from conservatives.  "The govt. is a large, drunken octopus!  There's no way it can effectively do ANYTHING!"  Well, not true.  And when it's obvious that the free market has no incentive or desire to do certain things that the public wants (like, you know, not paint kids toys with lead paint, put poison in our food and our pets food, etc etc) then govt. has a responsibility to step into the void.  If it doesn't, then you get something like the past 8 years. 

I also find it comical that conservatives will point to the ineffectiveness of the federal govt. after almost 30 years of trying to starve it to death.  "They can't maintain roads and bridges!" shriek the ostriches at conservative think tanks and the like.  Well, yeah.  No shit.  After your personal Jesus Ronald Reagan stopped paying to maintain them, wtf did you THINK was gonna happen?  Guess the Invisible Hand didn't get the memo to take care of that one, huh.

I know you don't get alot of things. Being a Liberal, there are things you won't get or see. Just like there are things a Conservative won't get or see about Liberals.  But please show me in Fear's post history where the FUCK he said anything about an Invisible Hand or that Reagan was his Jesus?

[Human Snorenado]

Huh?  He didn't, who cares.  Quit digging up Reagan's corpse just to fuck it, Jesus.

[ShogunOfFear]

What I find funny is that you think government can cure world hunger, can they rid the world of murder and rape too? 

So we shouldn't bother trying, then?  That's what I can never understand from conservatives.  "The govt. is a large, drunken octopus!  There's no way it can effectively do ANYTHING!"  Well, not true.  And when it's obvious that the free market has no incentive or desire to do certain things that the public wants (like, you know, not paint kids toys with lead paint, put poison in our food and our pets food, etc etc) then govt. has a responsibility to step into the void.  If it doesn't, then you get something like the past 8 years. 

I also find it comical that conservatives will point to the ineffectiveness of the federal govt. after almost 30 years of trying to starve it to death.  "They can't maintain roads and bridges!" shriek the ostriches at conservative think tanks and the like.  Well, yeah.  No shit.  After your personal Jesus Ronald Reagan stopped paying to maintain them, wtf did you THINK was gonna happen?  Guess the Invisible Hand didn't get the memo to take care of that one, huh.

Try what cure these things globally?  No because that's something we can't do.  And at what cost?  How much would be too much before you would say enough, we just can't do it?  Not sure where you're going with the lead paint thing.  I don't support a free enough market where we have no safety regulations on foods, imported products.  In fact I don't know any conservatives personally that would support having none of those things, some things transcend political ideologies.  

And we should point out the ineffectiveness of government, State or Federal.  Highways on the other hand, their building new roads in my area now while letting the old ones go to shit.  It'd make much more sense IMO to repair the shitty ones then if you have the money build the new ones.  And building highways and curing global hunger are two different things.  Repairing infrastructure in our nation is possible.

[Ganhyun]

Huh?  He didn't, who cares.  Quit digging up Reagan's corpse just to fuck it, Jesus.

From Card Cheat

After your personal Jesus Ronald Reagan stopped paying to maintain them, wtf did you THINK was gonna happen?

So how is this not insinuating that Fear believes that Reagan is his Jesus? You ARE the one who started that. So don't try to go say Who Cares, because obviously you did.

Edit: Besides, as we all know, Reagan isn't Jesus, Obama is.

[ShogunOfFear]

I would shoot myself after reading this this Obama Hussein bin Stalin didn't take my guns.

He's been too busy buying cheap DVD's.

[Ganhyun]

I would shoot myself after reading this this Obama Hussein bin Stalin didn't take my guns.

Then go shoot yourself. No one fucking cares.

I would shoot myself after reading this this Obama Hussein bin Stalin didn't take my guns.

He's been too busy buying cheap DVD's.

And cheap Marine1 helicopters.

So that he could "besmirch" the British as many of them are saying.

[Human Snorenado]

Ganhyun, if you're going to keep mumbling I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. 

Try what cure these things globally?  No because that's something we can't do.  And at what cost?  How much would be too much before you would say enough, we just can't do it?  Not sure where you're going with the lead paint thing.  I don't support a free enough market where we have no safety regulations on foods, imported products.  In fact I don't know any conservatives personally that would support having none of those things, some things transcend political ideologies. 

No, you guys just don't want to fund it to the point where it's actually effective.  GIVE ME BACK MAH MONIES! and all that rot.

And we should point out the ineffectiveness of government, State or Federal.  Highways on the other hand, their building new roads in my area now while letting the old ones go to shit.  It'd make much more sense IMO to repair the shitty ones then if you have the money build the new ones.  And building highways and curing global hunger are two different things.  Repairing infrastructure in our nation is possible.

Yes, we should point out the ineffectiveness of govt.  But we should also go further and point out exactly WHY it might be ineffective.  Could it be that people who have philosophical differences with the notion of a strong federal govt. (a strong federal govt. that tries to offer services to the populace at large- they have no problem with that govt. saying who can marry who, or that braindead vegetable people must be kept hooked up to ventilators and feeding tubes, etc etc) might not be the best choice to, you know, ACTUALLY RUN said govt?  The empirical evidence of the last eight years is pretty clear on this.

[Ganhyun]

I said I CAN'T SHOOT MYSELF

 :'( Literacy  :'(

I would shoot myself after reading this this Obama Hussein bin Stalin didn't take my guns.

Where does this say you CAN'T?

You aren't Father Mike now. I know this has to be some huge mistake.

[Ganhyun]

Ganhyun, if you're going to keep mumbling I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. 

Lol, u mad.

[Loki]

LOL @ anyone who would deny the central role that greed (on every level) played in creating this economic crisis.

[Human Snorenado]

Ganhyun, if you're going to keep mumbling I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. 

Lol, u mad.

JESUS CHRIST, STOP MUMBLING!

[Ganhyun]

LOL @ anyone who would deny the central role that greed (on every level) played in creating this economic crisis.

I'm not denying that greed helped cause this issue. Do we agree that the big cause of this issue was the whole subprime mortgage issue? If so then thnik about this:

Who started that whole: "Everyone should be able to own a house deal"? Bill Clinton, Chris Dodd, and Barney Frank. All Democrats. But Republicans are just as responsible for the issues as well. Both sides ignored the issue.

JESUS CHRIST, STOP MUMBLING!

LOL, U MAD.

So stop crying.

[recursivelyenumerable]

Not sure where you're going with the lead paint thing.

the relevance of the lead paint is that you and ganhyun have clearly been drinking some

[ShogunOfFear]

Ganhyun, if you're going to keep mumbling I'm not gonna talk to you anymore. 

No, you guys just don't want to fund it to the point where it's actually effective.  GIVE ME BACK MAH MONIES! and all that rot.


Yes, we should point out the ineffectiveness of govt.  But we should also go further and point out exactly WHY it might be ineffective.  Could it be that people who have philosophical differences with the notion of a strong federal govt. (a strong federal govt. that tries to offer services to the populace at large- they have no problem with that govt. saying who can marry who, or that braindead vegetable people must be kept hooked up to ventilators and feeding tubes, etc etc) might not be the best choice to, you know, ACTUALLY RUN said govt?  The empirical evidence of the last eight years is pretty clear on this.

That's because money doesn't solve everything.  I love how liberals shout off how we should stay out of other nation's affairs (which I agree with) but when it comes to giving away millions sometimes billions of dollars with no results or achievable goals, they are all for that.  Some of these nations are going to have to man the fuck up and solve their own problems.

So we agree then on the ineffectiveness of govt.  The only difference between me and some on this board is they choose to ignore one side when they are at fault, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd ring a bell?  Still no one has provide any evidence of how the government can cure poverty without bringing others down a step closer to poverty.  

[Ganhyun]

Not sure where you're going with the lead paint thing.

the relevance of the lead paint is that you and ganhyun have clearly been drinking some

Ahh here we go. Now it comes out. The typical Liberal response: Someone not Liberal have a point that you don't like? Insult them in some way or try to imply that any who think differently are stupid/distinguished mentally-challenged/on drugs/etc...

[ShogunOfFear]

Not sure where you're going with the lead paint thing.

the relevance of the lead paint is that you and ganhyun have clearly been drinking some

So we should drink cool aid?

[Human Snorenado]

There goes Ganhyun mumbling again.  I can't believe my ears- I thought I just heard him try to blame most or all of this shitstorm on making loans to poor people.  You know how many of the toxic loans out there were made by Fannie and Freddie?  Like 20% of 'em.  The other 80% were made by big private sector banks that didn't bear any risk in actually making the loans, because they then turned around, chopped 'em all up and sold 'em off as mortgage backed securities. 

But yes, let's blame the poor people and the democrats.  Or as Ganhyun would no doubt put it, "the Democrat controlled Congress". 

[Ganhyun]

Not sure where you're going with the lead paint thing.

the relevance of the lead paint is that you and ganhyun have clearly been drinking some

So we should drink cool aid?

no we are supposed to shutup and take one of these:




And not question Obama-Jesus or his followers.