Author Topic: DIE TOPIC YOU DON'T BELONG IN THIS WORLD  (Read 16094 times)

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recursivelyenumerable

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #60 on: March 10, 2009, 03:55:52 PM »
Quote
Ahh here we go. Now it comes out. The typical Liberal response: Someone not Liberal have a point that you don't like?

i have yet to see this point of yours
QED

Human Snorenado

  • Stay out of Malibu, Lebowski
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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #61 on: March 10, 2009, 03:56:46 PM »
Actually, you know what would be nice?

1. Quit trying to solve everything with tax cuts.  Tax cuts are not a miracle panacea that will cure cancer, limp dicks and any economic crisis.  Running a surplus?  Tax cuts!  Oh shit, big recession with lack of demand and spending in the private sector?  Tax cuts!

2. Second, just shut. the. fuck. up.  I don't care what you people think or have to say about anything anymore.  I can pretty much have an argument with you by putting your words in my dog's mouth and pretending at this point.  The last eight years have given us all a pretty good idea of how a Republican dominated federal govt. handles any situation- peace and economic surplus, war, massive natural disasters, queers getting married and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.  Your ideas and philosophies have failed on every conceivable front.  So. shut. the. fuck. up.  The adults are driving again, no more free rides for the "lawyers" from Liberty University.  Sit quietly in the back seat and when we get to our destination you can have an ice cream cone and we won't let you see the queers holding hands.

JESUS.
yar

Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #62 on: March 10, 2009, 03:57:59 PM »
 :lol  Meltdown
+1

Ganhyun

  • Used to worship Muckhole. Now worships Robo.
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #63 on: March 10, 2009, 04:00:15 PM »
There goes Ganhyun mumbling again.  I can't believe my ears- I thought I just heard him try to blame most or all of this shitstorm on making loans to poor people.  You know how many of the toxic loans out there were made by Fannie and Freddie?  Like 20% of 'em.  The other 80% were made by big private sector banks that didn't bear any risk in actually making the loans, because they then turned around, chopped 'em all up and sold 'em off as mortgage backed securities. 

But yes, let's blame the poor people and the democrats.  Or as Ganhyun would no doubt put it, "the Democrat controlled Congress".  ::)

lol, I thought you were ignoring me now crybaby?  ::)

You must have missed the part where I said Republicans were responsible too? But yes, a big issue in this was the known bad loans that banks knew the poor people couldn't pay back, yet kept making due to policies enacted by those Democrats. After all, if a poor person defaulted out, well, they always had more willing to come buy the house.

I don't begrudge someone their ability to own a home of their own, but buy one you can afford to pay for. If you can't afford to do that, then rent until you can.
XDF

Ganhyun

  • Used to worship Muckhole. Now worships Robo.
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #64 on: March 10, 2009, 04:02:12 PM »
Quote
Ahh here we go. Now it comes out. The typical Liberal response: Someone not Liberal have a point that you don't like?

i have yet to see this point of yours

in the words of Card Cheat: Thats because you cant fucking read ;)


Actually, you know what would be nice?

1. Quit trying to solve everything with tax cuts.  Tax cuts are not a miracle panacea that will cure cancer, limp dicks and any economic crisis.  Running a surplus?  Tax cuts!  Oh shit, big recession with lack of demand and spending in the private sector?  Tax cuts!

2. Second, just shut. the. fuck. up.  I don't care what you people think or have to say about anything anymore.  I can pretty much have an argument with you by putting your words in my dog's mouth and pretending at this point.  The last eight years have given us all a pretty good idea of how a Republican dominated federal govt. handles any situation- peace and economic surplus, war, massive natural disasters, queers getting married and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.  Your ideas and philosophies have failed on every conceivable front.  So. shut. the. fuck. up.  The adults are driving again, no more free rides for the "lawyers" from Liberty University.  Sit quietly in the back seat and when we get to our destination you can have an ice cream cone and we won't let you see the queers holding hands.

JESUS.

Meltdown :lol :lol

oh wait, even more funny:
I don't care what you people think or have to say about anything anymore. 

what do YOU mean you people?
XDF

Eric P

  • I DESERVE the gold. I will GET the gold!
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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #65 on: March 10, 2009, 04:04:17 PM »
Quote
I don't begrudge someone their ability to own a home of their own, but buy one you can afford to pay for. If you can't afford to do that, then rent until you can.

i mean, it just makes sense, right?
Tonya

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #66 on: March 10, 2009, 04:12:24 PM »
Quote
in the words of Card Cheat: Thats because you cant fucking read Wink

it's because you can't put a sentence together.
QED

Ganhyun

  • Used to worship Muckhole. Now worships Robo.
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #67 on: March 10, 2009, 04:22:10 PM »
Quote
in the words of Card Cheat: Thats because you cant fucking read Wink

it's because you can't put a sentence together.

 :o  :lol

I put together a bunch of sentences in my posts. Just because you didn't understand them or refused to isn't my problem.

XDF

Ganhyun

  • Used to worship Muckhole. Now worships Robo.
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #68 on: March 10, 2009, 04:23:25 PM »
I said I CAN'T SHOOT MYSELF

 :'( Literacy  :'(

I would shoot myself after reading this this Obama Hussein bin Stalin didn't take my guns.

Where does this say you CAN'T?

You aren't Father Mike now. I know this has to be some huge mistake.
:o

spoiler (click to show/hide)
:'(
[close]

don't worry Gengis, even though you are mean to me alot, I still love you.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
  :-*
[close]
XDF

Brehvolution

  • Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside.
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #69 on: March 10, 2009, 04:42:15 PM »
Actually, you know what would be nice?

1. Quit trying to solve everything with tax cuts.  Tax cuts are not a miracle panacea that will cure cancer, limp dicks and any economic crisis.  Running a surplus?  Tax cuts!  Oh shit, big recession with lack of demand and spending in the private sector?  Tax cuts!

2. Second, just shut. the. fuck. up.  I don't care what you people think or have to say about anything anymore.  I can pretty much have an argument with you by putting your words in my dog's mouth and pretending at this point.  The last eight years have given us all a pretty good idea of how a Republican dominated federal govt. handles any situation- peace and economic surplus, war, massive natural disasters, queers getting married and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.  Your ideas and philosophies have failed on every conceivable front.  So. shut. the. fuck. up.  The adults are driving again, no more free rides for the "lawyers" from Liberty University.  Sit quietly in the back seat and when we get to our destination you can have an ice cream cone and we won't let you see the queers holding hands.

JESUS.

slowclap.gif
©ZH

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
  • Banned
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #70 on: March 10, 2009, 04:52:03 PM »
LOL @ anyone who would deny the central role that greed (on every level) played in creating this economic crisis. :lol

you don't understand, loki: greed is virtuous! man is invested with the sovereign and unalienable right to care not ONE WHIT about his neighbor, and ultimately MUST acknowledge that the greatest service man can do is to look completely after his own interest -- and, of course, to proselytize as many shallow axioms about self-sufficiency as necessary to ensure that everyone else ALSO embraces that credo! once we are all perfectly self-sufficient, the gates to economic nirvana will open; free market jesus will return to break loaves of gold into monetarily-sound fishes for all his unshackled followers; and the lambs, thus freed from the tyranny of social welfare, will lay down with the john galt-esque lions! it's so simple! LIBERTOPIA AWAITS!

this crisis is caused because we didn't respect greed ENOUGH -- we, in the evil of our regulatory bodies, tried to slap the hands of titans, leading them to only half-heartedly invest the great works of their minds and bodies. had we let them pursue their noble course, they would have become flush with the wealth of their clever economic mathematics, their unfathomably brilliant securities and derivatives labyrinths, and their long-term investment visions (don't you DARE call them "ponzi schemes")! then, enlightened as they are, would have used that wealth to give every man and woman who was willing to apply the sweat of their brow in the service of capital with a REAL JOB making REAL (gold backed, of course) MONEY.

doesn't it all just make a lovely sense? how can you deny this!

spoiler (click to show/hide)
there is a real fear among libertarian types when it comes to the notion of a greater social consciousness and responsibility. when you try to view the world through the chiaroscuro lens of personal economy -- what gives you a meaningful roi and what doesn't -- acknowledging and adapting to meet the weaknesses of your fellow man probably seems very, very unrewarding. hence, we see the facade of sociopathy painted large, and the bumper sticker justifications that completely, wholly, and utterly fail to acknowledge the reality of being human in a world of fucked-up humans. :'(
[close]
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 10:07:31 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2009, 04:54:46 PM »
There goes Ganhyun mumbling again.  I can't believe my ears- I thought I just heard him try to blame most or all of this shitstorm on making loans to poor people.  You know how many of the toxic loans out there were made by Fannie and Freddie?  Like 20% of 'em.  The other 80% were made by big private sector banks that didn't bear any risk in actually making the loans, because they then turned around, chopped 'em all up and sold 'em off as mortgage backed securities. 

But yes, let's blame the poor people and the democrats.  Or as Ganhyun would no doubt put it, "the Democrat controlled Congress".  ::)

lol, I thought you were ignoring me now crybaby?  ::)

You must have missed the part where I said Republicans were responsible too? But yes, a big issue in this was the known bad loans that banks knew the poor people couldn't pay back, yet kept making due to policies enacted by those Democrats. After all, if a poor person defaulted out, well, they always had more willing to come buy the house.

I don't begrudge someone their ability to own a home of their own, but buy one you can afford to pay for. If you can't afford to do that, then rent until you can.

why are we still discussing the cra as though it is relevant to this crisis? at best, it's merely a symptom. at worst, it's almost a non sequitur. the banks needed NO stick to prod them into making these bad loans, and in fact gleefully developed entire STRATEGIES to exploit the bubble.
duc

BlueTsunami

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2009, 05:03:32 PM »
Holy shit, Triumph :lol :bow
:9

TakingBackSunday

  • Banana Grabber
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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2009, 05:07:18 PM »
If I have to see fucking Ganhyun post that fucking "blue pill derderder lololo" post one more goddamn time in a politcal thread, I'm going to virtually ball tap him.  My hand will fucking tear dimensions to get to it.
püp

Ganhyun

  • Used to worship Muckhole. Now worships Robo.
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2009, 05:21:34 PM »
If I have to see fucking Ganhyun post that fucking "blue pill derderder lololo" post one more goddamn time in a politcal thread, I'm going to virtually ball tap him.  My hand will fucking tear dimensions to get to it.

Oh?


Here ya go then.




oh wait, you said virtually ball tap. :(


XDF

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
  • Banned
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #75 on: March 10, 2009, 05:28:42 PM »
The idea that it was the poors mortgages that caused this is not only flimsy, it fails to acknowledge that it was the lenders who were willing to give the money in the first place.  Both were complicit in that mess, but when a bank is willing to give loans to those who don't even have a source of income or any assets to speak of something is wrong.  You can criticize the changes to the community reinvestment act during the Clinton administration, but that's not the reason these liar loans were going through.  All it took was for one lender to relax rules further to create a domino effect where "everyone was doing it".  And to the loan originators it didn't matter because they were just gonna bundle em up and pass them on to another company, and it didn't matter to that other company because they had insurance.  AIG said, sure, we'll insure those.  Those are AAA.  And so on and so forth.

So yeah, the whole poors getting mortgages they couldn't afford was a problem.  It wasn't the cause of the mess, but it was another symptom of greed and an example of what happens when regulations are eased and the market is left to its own devices.  I find it odd that those who complain about the relaxed regulation that made easier access to loans are simultaneously against further regulation.

well, the conservatard narrative goes like this:

POOR PEOPLE ARE MORALLY DEGRADED AND GROSS IRRESPONSIBILITY IS FUNDAMENTAL TO THEIR DEPRAVED, CODEPENDENT, LEECHLIKE NATURES

i mean

"under clinton's community reinvestment act, banks were FORCED to give loans to filthy 'inner city' poor people, who, in their predictably greedy and socially exploitative way, lied and betrayed this typical ill-considered bleeding-heart liberal nonsense -- as we expected. the banks, who under normal circumstances would NEVER lend to those who lacked the income, were forced to make these terrible investments, and, left with no options, attempted to mitigate the damage by bundling them in with better loans and securitizing them. we are victims of typical liberal welfare shenanigans!"

and then we all gaze into the abyss, since it is so clearly gazing into us
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 06:10:07 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

Human Snorenado

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #76 on: March 10, 2009, 05:54:38 PM »
The idea that it was the poors mortgages that caused this is not only flimsy, it fails to acknowledge that it was the lenders who were willing to give the money in the first place.  Both were complicit in that mess, but when a bank is willing to give loans to those who don't even have a source of income or any assets to speak of something is wrong.  You can criticize the changes to the community reinvestment act during the Clinton administration, but that's not the reason these liar loans were going through.  All it took was for one lender to relax rules further to create a domino effect where "everyone was doing it".  And to the loan originators it didn't matter because they were just gonna bundle em up and pass them on to another company, and it didn't matter to that other company because they had insurance.  AIG said, sure, we'll insure those.  Those are AAA.  And so on and so forth.

So yeah, the whole poors getting mortgages they couldn't afford was a problem.  It wasn't the cause of the mess, but it was another symptom of greed and an example of what happens when regulations are eased and the market is left to its own devices.  I find it odd that those who complain about the relaxed regulation that made easier access to loans are simultaneously against further regulation.

Indeed.  It's like trying to be pissed about someone getting arrested for drunk driving when
A) that person was given all the booze by the bank and
B) pushed into the car by the bank

So naturally, let's totally be pissed at the driver in this scenario, because if the bank hadn't loaded them up and pushed them into the car there would be NO FUCKING DRUNKEN IDIOT ON THE ROAD.

I mean, I read about these idiots getting the loans- vegetable pickers in California, Subway SANDWICH ARTISTS who make less than 20k a year, etc etc and I while I agree they shouldn't be homeowners... it's kind of hard not to want to beat the bankers to death for loaning them the money.  Nahmean and all?
yar

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #77 on: March 10, 2009, 06:09:40 PM »
bobobobo LIBERAL SENATORS AND BILL CLINTON MADE THE BANKS DO IT
duc

Human Snorenado

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #78 on: March 10, 2009, 06:15:37 PM »
bobobobo LIBERAL SENATORS AND BILL CLINTON MADE THE BANKS DO IT

AND THAT BARNEY FRANK DON'T FORGET HIM

HE ENABLED FANNIE AND FREDDIE AS THE POWERLESS, IMPOTENT RANKING DEMOCRAT ON THE HOUSE FINANCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE UNTIL 2007

PLUS I HEAR HE EATS AT TOOTER TOWN, IF YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN :shh
yar

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #79 on: March 10, 2009, 06:18:56 PM »
bobobobobo CONGRESSIONAL REPUBLICANS AND BUSH JUNIOR WERE JUST RINOS, THEY WERE NOT TRUE SMALL-GOVERNMENT REPUBLICANS LIKE WE ARE NOW
duc

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #80 on: March 10, 2009, 06:20:26 PM »
Actually, you know what would be nice?

1. Quit trying to solve everything with tax cuts.  Tax cuts are not a miracle panacea that will cure cancer, limp dicks and any economic crisis.  Running a surplus?  Tax cuts!  Oh shit, big recession with lack of demand and spending in the private sector?  Tax cuts!

2. Second, just shut. the. fuck. up.  I don't care what you people think or have to say about anything anymore.  I can pretty much have an argument with you by putting your words in my dog's mouth and pretending at this point.  The last eight years have given us all a pretty good idea of how a Republican dominated federal govt. handles any situation- peace and economic surplus, war, massive natural disasters, queers getting married and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.  Your ideas and philosophies have failed on every conceivable front.  So. shut. the. fuck. up.  The adults are driving again, no more free rides for the "lawyers" from Liberty University.  Sit quietly in the back seat and when we get to our destination you can have an ice cream cone and we won't let you see the queers holding hands.

JESUS.

holy shit, conservatives destroyed in a nuclear fire
duc

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #81 on: March 10, 2009, 07:52:38 PM »
Just out of curiosity, do libertarians think that China's businesses are over-regulated?

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2009, 07:57:59 PM »
After generations of ridiculously tight control of the banking industry, causing the few remaining companies in it to be clumsy and outdated, and run by incompetents. The Federal government then INCREASED the number and kind of regulations, but called it "deregulation", producing a complicated new category of bank that had a special safety net, insulating it from responsibility OR consumer control, called the Savings and Loan, and staffed with the bumblers from the old banking industry. This, of course, eventually failed, and the economy was additionally damaged by billions of dollars in bailouts that should never have happened, just like today.

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #83 on: March 10, 2009, 08:03:01 PM »
Where would socialism be if it didnt have capitalism to blame all its own failures on?
spoiler (click to show/hide)
[close]


Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #84 on: March 10, 2009, 08:04:36 PM »
About the loan thing, what I find funny is dems who blame the banks but turn around and reward them.  

So once we nationalize the banks, and the government owned banks make the same shitty loans, since they you know just want to spread you know wealth and stuff,  (Sorry couldn't resist that Kennedy ref) who we gonna blame then?  Hmm
+1

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #85 on: March 10, 2009, 08:05:12 PM »
Actually, you know what would be nice?

1. Quit trying to solve everything with tax cuts.  Tax cuts are not a miracle panacea that will cure cancer, limp dicks and any economic crisis.  Running a surplus?  Tax cuts!  Oh shit, big recession with lack of demand and spending in the private sector?  Tax cuts!

2. Second, just shut. the. fuck. up.  I don't care what you people think or have to say about anything anymore.  I can pretty much have an argument with you by putting your words in my dog's mouth and pretending at this point.  The last eight years have given us all a pretty good idea of how a Republican dominated federal govt. handles any situation- peace and economic surplus, war, massive natural disasters, queers getting married and the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression.  Your ideas and philosophies have failed on every conceivable front.  So. shut. the. fuck. up.  The adults are driving again, no more free rides for the "lawyers" from Liberty University.  Sit quietly in the back seat and when we get to our destination you can have an ice cream cone and we won't let you see the queers holding hands.

JESUS.

holy shit, conservatives destroyed in a nuclear fire

Ah yes, the "adults are driving". Clearly the most reasonable and levelheaded of all arguments. I forgot about this one. Clearly Everyone in a 10 mile radius  has been annihilated by some series fucking logic.

BlueTsunami

  • The Muffin Man
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #86 on: March 10, 2009, 08:07:58 PM »
Well "adults driving" is still more reasonable and grounded in reality than a "magical force"
:9

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #87 on: March 10, 2009, 08:09:01 PM »
but honestly, do libertarians have any problems with china's business practices?

Kestastrophe

  • "Hero" isn't the right word, but its the first word that comes to mind
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #88 on: March 10, 2009, 08:10:36 PM »
About the loan thing, what I find funny is dems who blame the banks but turn around and reward them.
Is this all you can see, is everything this black and white to libertarians? smh
jon

Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #89 on: March 10, 2009, 08:12:38 PM »
About the loan thing, what I find funny is dems who blame the banks but turn around and reward them.
Is this all you can see, is everything this black and white to libertarians? smh

Chose to avoid my question I see, typical.
+1

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2009, 08:14:39 PM »
Well "adults driving" is still more reasonable and grounded in reality than a "magical force"

Go read what I said, I was making fun of Kosma for thinking that a magical force will feed people.

Kestastrophe

  • "Hero" isn't the right word, but its the first word that comes to mind
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #91 on: March 10, 2009, 08:15:46 PM »
About the loan thing, what I find funny is dems who blame the banks but turn around and reward them.
Is this all you can see, is everything this black and white to libertarians? smh

Chose to avoid my question I see, typical.

It's my FoC impression, in case you missed the first 2 pages
jon

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #92 on: March 10, 2009, 08:16:54 PM »
About the loan thing, what I find funny is dems who blame the banks but turn around and reward them.
Is this all you can see, is everything this black and white to libertarians? smh

Chose to avoid my question I see, typical.

It's my FoC impression, in case you missed the first 2 pages

What question have ignored from you?

Kestastrophe

  • "Hero" isn't the right word, but its the first word that comes to mind
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #93 on: March 10, 2009, 08:17:51 PM »
^
Quote from: Me
But what if humans are incapable of acting in their own best interest, as history has repeatedly shown and of which there exists extensive literature (in fact, behavioral finance is very recent area of research). I don't get how you fail to account for this, but still champion the ideal.

 >:(
jon

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #94 on: March 10, 2009, 08:22:40 PM »
that's basically what I was asking.  What do libertarians think it is that makes Chinese businesses have such a poor reputation when there's very little regulation?

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #95 on: March 10, 2009, 08:22:48 PM »
What the fuck is your question. Jesus I dont even see a fucking question mark. I assume its this.

Quote
But what if humans are incapable of acting in their own best interest,
My answer is pretty simple, if an individual is incapable of acting in their own best interest than that individual and that individual alone will suffer whatever consequences will happen.

Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2009, 08:25:37 PM »
What the fuck is your question. Jesus I dont even see a fucking question mark. I assume its this.

Quote
But what if humans are incapable of acting in their own best interest,
My answer is pretty simple, if an individual is incapable of acting in their own best interest than that individual and that individual alone will suffer whatever consequences will happen.


If that is true and humans are incapable then government is incapable, because they are after all human.  At least I think they are. 


+1

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2009, 08:26:44 PM »
OH SHIT OWNED BY SOME SERIOUS FUCKING LOGIC!!!!!

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2009, 08:27:48 PM »


ANNIHI-fucking-LATED

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2009, 08:29:38 PM »
The idea is that the government has checks and balances to try and stop most corruption and mistakes while having a free market is jumping in the pool and shitting yourself.

See China.

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #100 on: March 10, 2009, 08:30:46 PM »
The idea is that the government has checks and balances to try and stop most corruption and mistakes while having a free market is jumping in the pool and shitting yourself.

Wow you think government stops most corruption. You my friend are very naive. How old are you 12?

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #101 on: March 10, 2009, 08:32:06 PM »
do you disagree that that's why most democratic/socialist governments were created?  why?

Kestastrophe

  • "Hero" isn't the right word, but its the first word that comes to mind
  • Senior Member
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #102 on: March 10, 2009, 08:32:38 PM »
What the fuck is your question. Jesus I dont even see a fucking question mark. I assume its this.

Quote
But what if humans are incapable of acting in their own best interest,
My answer is pretty simple, if an individual is incapable of acting in their own best interest than that individual and that individual alone will suffer whatever consequences will happen.

But its not just certain individuals, empirical research has shown that it is nondiscriminantly everyone. I can provide you with the research on request, but I would highly recommend the book Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely for starters. 


Shogun, I don't think anyone is claiming that the government is infallible, as you mentioned it is comprised of imperfect individuals.

I'm going to the gym for an hour, but I'll peek back in this thread to see if anyone has requested research.
jon

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #103 on: March 10, 2009, 08:34:00 PM »
Liberals think mankind is "incapable"

Libertarians believe mankind is "capable"


Hmmm which group do I want to belong to. This is a real tough choice. I might have to stay up all night deciding...

Human Snorenado

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #104 on: March 10, 2009, 08:46:39 PM »
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

LAKSDJFLASKFJASFUIOWEHGOIHGOHSOGHASF

GHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH

CUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNT

spoiler (click to show/hide)
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yar

brawndolicious

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #105 on: March 10, 2009, 08:47:37 PM »
Hmmm which group do I want to belong to. This is a real tough choice. I might have to stay up all night deciding...
that's good.  kestastrophe might be able to post those statistics before you decide.

but of course china (capitalist paradise) should be a pretty big strike against libertarianism anyways.

Loki

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #106 on: March 10, 2009, 08:48:26 PM »

you don't understand, loki: greed is virtuous! man is invested with the sovereign and unalienable right to care not ONE WHIT about his neighbor, and ultimately MUST acknowledge that the greatest service man can do is to look completely after his own interest -- and, of course, to proselytize as many shallow axioms about self-sufficiency as necessary to ensure that everyone else ALSO embraces that credo! once we are all perfectly self-sufficient, the gates to economic nirvana will open; free market jesus will return to break loaves of gold into monetarily-sound fishes for all his unshackled followers; and the lambs, thus feed from the tyranny of social welfare, will lay down with the john galt-esque lions! it's so simple! LIBERTOPIA AWAITS!

this crisis is caused because we didn't respect greed ENOUGH -- we, in the evil of our regulatory bodies, tried to slap the hands of titans, leading them to only half-heartedly invest the great works of their minds and bodies. had we let them pursue their noble course, they would have become flush with the wealth of their clever economic mathematics, their unfathomably brilliant securities and derivatives labyrinths, and their long-term investment visions (don't you DARE call them "ponzi schemes")! then, enlightened as they are, would have used that wealth to give every man and woman who was willing to apply the sweat of their brow in the service of capital with a REAL JOB making REAL (gold backed, of course) MONEY.

doesn't it all just make a lovely sense? how can you deny this!

spoiler (click to show/hide)
there is a real fear among libertarian types when it comes to the notion of a greater social consciousness and responsibility. when you try to view the world through the chiaroscuro lens of personal economy -- what gives you a meaningful roi and what doesn't -- acknowledging and adapting to meet the weaknesses of your fellow man probably seems very, very unrewarding. hence, we see the facade of sociopathy painted large, and the bumper sticker justifications that completely, wholly, and utterly fail to acknowledge the reality of being human in a world of fucked-up humans. :'(
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:lol

Awesome post.  You have a lot more patience for this stuff than I do nowadays.  Lately I just find myself lol'ing at everything, utterly incapable of summoning the energy to post an actual response.  People will always believe what they want to believe regardless of how cogent your arguments are, how persuasive your rhetoric is, or how much data you have on your side.

As an aside, when do you think we'll see any of the following measures enacted.  I told my friend this weekend that one of the only ways I'll believe that it isn't "business as usual" in this country is when one or more of the following come to pass (most of which should have been among the first things done in the wake of the Bear and Lehman catastrophes):

- Repeal of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act

- A hard cap on leverage (say, 8-10:1) reinstituted; I believe restraints on leverage were lifted by way of a Bush era law, though I forget which one in particular.

- Mandating that all mortgages and loans remain with the issuing institutions (this would provide an incentive for local banks to ensure that borrowers did not enter into default, and would also mean that dozens of other institutions wouldn't end up with toxic assets on their balance sheets; had this been in place 5-7 years ago, this entire crisis could have been averted, or at least drastically reduced in scope).

- Requiring that all future financial "innovations" be vetted by regulatory agencies before being put into widespread practice.  This could have prevented the entire CDS debacle.  The fact of the matter is that developments in the financial sector have been occurring far too rapidly, and have outpaced the ability of agencies to properly analyze them.  They insinuate themselves into the system too quickly for any systemic effects to be analyzed on a smaller scale before they end up being $40+ trillion pandemics like the global CDS market.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 08:55:57 PM by Loki »

Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #107 on: March 10, 2009, 08:57:06 PM »
Hmmm which group do I want to belong to. This is a real tough choice. I might have to stay up all night deciding...
that's good.  kestastrophe might be able to post those statistics before you decide.

but of course china (capitalist paradise) should be a pretty big strike against libertarianism anyways.

Doesn't the state own and control a large fraction of the Chinese economy?  I know they gave up the centralized planned economy though.  They seem more like a socialist market economy with tools of capitalism.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:11:33 PM by ShogunOfFear »
+1

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #108 on: March 10, 2009, 08:59:12 PM »
Liberals think mankind is "incapable"

Libertarians believe mankind is "capable"


Hmmm which group do I want to belong to. This is a real tough choice. I might have to stay up all night deciding...

or perhaps we are just wise, experienced, and nuanced enough to understand that humanity is both capable and incapable of many and different things, and that levels of capability differ between each individual as well as the context under which those individuals participate -- and that we are prepared to do the hard work of allowing for the expression of that differentiation in a way that doesn't necesarily translate into convenient dogma

The idea is that the government has checks and balances to try and stop most corruption and mistakes while having a free market is jumping in the pool and shitting yourself.

Wow you think government stops most corruption. You my friend are very naive. How old are you 12?


no, we are simply aware that corruption EXISTS and attempts must be made to solve for it, in both government AND the free market. having the government seek to address corruption of the market place does not suggest that government itself is impermeable to corruption, you hopelessly binary twat; likewise, the free market's own corruption doesn't disenfranchise its existence. there are many ways to enact accountability, and government is a VERY efficient venue for many of them, regardless of your insistence that government is some sort of nebulous evil monolith that operates independent of the people and the markets. your problem is that you simply can't understand or IMAGINE compromise, despite it being the one of the most fundamental principles of human social interaction -- and that is why you are largely worthless. please read some social anthropology or government histories. PLEASE. the fact that you have no intellectual basis to discuss ANY of this is getting old.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2009, 09:01:26 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #109 on: March 10, 2009, 09:04:43 PM »
I have a solution to solve corruption, make government smaller.


Quote
the free market's own corruption

Explain what free market corruption is.


Van Cruncheon

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #110 on: March 10, 2009, 09:06:46 PM »
I have a solution to solve corruption, make government smaller.


Quote
the free market's own corruption

Explain what free market corruption is.



http://www.msnbc.com, read the business section
duc

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #111 on: March 10, 2009, 09:07:20 PM »
I have a solution to solve corruption, make government smaller.


Quote
the free market's own corruption

Explain what free market corruption is.

http://www.msnbc.com, read the business section

That's called theft and its illegal.

Human Snorenado

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #112 on: March 10, 2009, 09:07:35 PM »
I have a solution to solve corruption, make government smaller.

It's amazing that all of your solutions are jingoistic and less than ten words.  It's a shame the world shits all over such simpleness... I guess you could say the market has spoken.
yar

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #113 on: March 10, 2009, 09:10:00 PM »
I have a solution to solve corruption, make government smaller.


Quote
the free market's own corruption

Explain what free market corruption is.

http://www.msnbc.com, read the business section

That's called theft and its illegal.

really? then how come a massively deregulated marketplace let credit default swaps and gross insurance fraud and securitization shenanigans happen? or are you going to do some magical thinking and claim that the market was TOO heavily regulated, and that bankers were FORCED by the government to play with some new economic maths at the expense of the country's financial well-being?

alternatively, you could argue that anarchy is best for everyone, since those who make mistakes -- on any scale -- are consistently punished. after all, nothing says "freedom" like frontier justice!
duc

Human Snorenado

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #114 on: March 10, 2009, 09:15:05 PM »
Prole- he already did, see post 101.  Fuck, here you go.

Quote from: Randroid the Retardboy
After generations of ridiculously tight control of the banking industry, causing the few remaining companies in it to be clumsy and outdated, and run by incompetents. The Federal government then INCREASED the number and kind of regulations, but called it "deregulation", producing a complicated new category of bank that had a special safety net, insulating it from responsibility OR consumer control, called the Savings and Loan, and staffed with the bumblers from the old banking industry. This, of course, eventually failed, and the economy was additionally damaged by billions of dollars in bailouts that should never have happened, just like today.

This prompted my shrieking, hair pulling and scat pic post.
yar

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #115 on: March 10, 2009, 09:15:57 PM »
I have a solution to solve corruption, make government smaller.

It's amazing that all of your solutions are jingoistic and less than ten words. 

You got me, I had to look up the word.

jingoism |ˈji ng gōˌizəm|
noun chiefly derogatory
extreme patriotism, esp. in the form of aggressive or warlike foreign policy.


Im not sure how you can call anything I say remotely similar to that.




FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #116 on: March 10, 2009, 09:16:46 PM »
Prole- he already did, see post 101.  Fuck, here you go.

Quote from: Randroid the Retardboy
After generations of ridiculously tight control of the banking industry, causing the few remaining companies in it to be clumsy and outdated, and run by incompetents. The Federal government then INCREASED the number and kind of regulations, but called it "deregulation", producing a complicated new category of bank that had a special safety net, insulating it from responsibility OR consumer control, called the Savings and Loan, and staffed with the bumblers from the old banking industry. This, of course, eventually failed, and the economy was additionally damaged by billions of dollars in bailouts that should never have happened, just like today.

This prompted my shrieking, hair pulling and scat pic post.

I guess you cant handle the truth. Thats okay most liberals cant.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #117 on: March 10, 2009, 09:21:18 PM »
well, at least he's parroting the very LATEST in republitwat doublethink. i was afraid i might hafta regress two or three weeks to respond!

some days, i wonder why brad delong hasn't been sainted.
duc

Crushed

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #118 on: March 10, 2009, 09:23:39 PM »
If Randians love to worship the infallibility of capable men and selfish desires, then why do communist governments, which tend towards fulfilling selfish desires of its capable leaders, collapse? If men are all capable, then why are there these mysterious and unproductive leeches and parasites who have an unexplained natural tendency to steal from REAL people? Are the unproductive segments of society subhuman?
wtc

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Believers in free markets are fighting back
« Reply #119 on: March 10, 2009, 09:24:32 PM »
Quote
republitwat

Liberals should publish a book with all the different ways they make the word Republican into some kind funny name. You guys seem to be very good at it. How many hours a day do you guys sit around thinking of words like, Repug, Repube, Replitwat   :lol

Maybe if you guys stopped sitting around thinking of funny names and got a job you wouldn't have to worry about getting income from other peoples taxes.