TV talk

[Smooth Groove]

My neighbor is offering me his 34 inch, widescreen CRT HDTV.  I think it's this model or something very close to it:

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ele/1077276470.html

I'm thinking about taking it since last gen SD consoles look much better on CRT than flat panels.  If I want it, I'm gonna have to move it myself. 

The TV is about 8 yrs old.  How long do CRTS last?  I don't want to go through the trouble of lifting that heavy ass TV if it's only going to work for 2-3 more years. 

[Smooth Groove]

Also, are there any TV in the $2500 to $2800 range that is better than my current TV ( http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8793898&st=58+plasma&lp=3&type=product&cp=1&id=1205537515326 )?

My uncle wants to upgrade his TV and he's asking me for advice.  Since my TV is only 8 months old, I was thinking of my pawning my TV on him and then upgrading to something else. 

I see that the very respected Kuro line is on sale at Best Buy but only the 50 incher is within my price range and I don't want to switch to a smaller size. 

What's up with Pioneer's weird pricing anyways?  The 50" is $2300, and the 60" is $4900.  As if, anyone would want a 60" when they can buy two 50" and a console for the same price. 

[demi]

So I'm gonna guess you dont know anyone who owns a dolly to carry that big, heavy, old TV around

[dark1x]

OK, so in regards to the CRT...

I've owned a similar model at one point (a 2004 Panasonic 30" CRT) and I was not happy with it at all, actually.  I ended up pawning it off for a Sony CRT which I continue to use for older consoles (one of the best CRTs I've used).  Anyways, I had a number of issues with the Panasonic and some of them will vary per set (as is the case for CRTs in general).  The 2004 model featured very poor video de-interlacing which resulted in artifacts (very noisy image) and poor color reproduction.  It actually did a fairly poor job with 1080i material as well.  The screen itself had a very poor dot pitch and was unable to resolve much more than a standard definition image which resulted in a mess of an image.  480p, on the other hand, was mostly solid with excellent.  There were a couple other problems which had an effect on every display mode, however.  First and foremost, the geometry was absolutely atrocious.  This is one of those problems which plagued the CRT throughout its lifetime, but in this case, it was significantly worse than usual with the left and right sides of the image appearing squished inward with all sources.  The service mode did not allow one to make adjustments for this either.  There were a couple of undefeatable dynamic contrast settings present as well.  Not too severe, fortunately, but still a tad bothersome.  

Still, despite these issues, I would much prefer it to a cheaper LCD for last generation gaming (though not by much).  Furthermore, I'm only speaking on the 2004 model.  The earlier model could potentially be worse but, on the other hand, may actually prove superior.  Prior to the Panasonic, I owned a Toshiba SDTV which I quite liked.  A friend then purchased the following years model (which was actually a re-badged Orion) and the picture quality was vastly inferior.  Whether or not Panasonic decided to outsource in 2004 would be an indicator one way or another, but I honestly do not know.

If you're happy with the picture quality, however, I think there is little to worry about in regards to life time.  The phosphors do age over time, but CRTs are long lasting displays.  As the unit ages you will begin to notice the image becoming dim, but this would take quite a while.  Even if this display had been used for many hours a day every day for the past eight years, you would still have plenty of life left in it.  Taking into consideration the type of usage you probably have in mind, it should be fine for a while longer provided nothing electrical fails (which could occur with any display).  I recently picked up a very large professional grade CRT monitor for my PC which dates back to 2000, yet it produces an absolutely beautiful image despite its age.

So, there's some insight on the first post.  I'll take a look at the second shortly.

[Smooth Groove]

Was your TV a widescreen model?  Do most 16:9 CRTS have a 4:3 mode or do they just stretch the picture?  That's a big issue since most non-Xbox games in the last gen were 4:3. 

[Smooth Groove]

So I'm gonna guess you dont know anyone who owns a dolly to carry that big, heavy, old TV around

I could but I just don't wanna go through the hassle of moving it and setting it up if it's not worth the effort. 

[dark1x]

As for the second issue...

I'm actually not a fan of Samsung plasmas, I have to admit.  The glass exhibits flaws which have not been present in other manufacturers displays since 2006 (noisy image and dithering in darker regions, for instance).  A Panasonic plasma would actually be a pretty significant improvement (especially the new 2009 models).

The Kuro plasmas, however, remain the absolute best displays on the market (in my opinion).  Samsung is making some serious strides with its LED based LCD panels, but they still have a ways to go.  The Kuro is in a league of its own which, unfortunately, was far beyond what the mass market was willing to pay.  As such, the Kuro line is reaching its end due to Pioneers inability to compete in the price wars being waged by larger manufacturers with lesser products.  If you have interest in one of those displays, it is best to jump in before they are gone.  Pioneer will cease manufacturing them sometime in April (though they are claiming that they will continue to support them for years to come).  If you're looking for a better price it is best to check with dedicated home theater companies.  For instance, I ordered my first Kuro from Plasma Concepts and was very pleased with their service.  They currently offer the 60" Kuro for $3,795.00, which is a solid price.  The online market is much more competitive than Best Buy, which posts ridiculous prices on the 60" Kuro displays.  Still, even the $3800 price is outside of the range you quoted.  That said, I've spent time with larger displays and, while it is nice, I would certainly prefer using a 50" Kuro over any other larger non-Kuro display (but of course, preference comes into play here).

As noted above, I do actually think the 2009 (or even the 2008 models, really) Panasonic would be a reasonable option as it fits into your budget while producing an image superior to the Samsung.

Was your TV a widescreen model?  Do most 16:9 CRTS have a 4:3 mode or do they just stretch the picture?  That's a big issue since most non-Xbox games in the last gen were 4:3.

The newer model, at least, had the ability to toggle between 16:9 and 4:3 display modes (as well as a couple other options).  That won't be an issue.

[Smooth Groove]

I could actually get Panasonic plasmas for very cheap prices.  My friend at Fox studios have a special employee's discount that gets him even cheaper prices than online retailers. 

I guess I could switch to a Panny but I've seen varying reports on whether it's better than my Samsung or not.  Supposedly, the Panny has better black levels and the Samsung has better colors.  I read somewhere that the Samsung has one of the best pictures once it gets professionaly calibrated but I guess I'm never gonna spend $400 on a calibration. 

What annoys me most about my current TV is the reflective screen.  Although it's supposedly much improved over the previous year's, the screen is still quite reflective.  Since my living room is quite bright during the day, reflections are bothersome for viewing dark material.  The Kuros seem to be better in this regard although I don't know how they'd fare in my living room. 

While I'm sure the Kuro looks great, switching to a smaller screen is not an option.  I'm starting to think that even 58" is too small for watching movies. 

It's kinda sad that Pioneers won't be making high quality plasmas any more but I'm hopeful that LCDs will catch up pretty soon.  LCD technology seems to be catching up awfully fast.  Just two years ago, they were still having major problems with motion blur and black levels but now there are LCDs that are almost as fast and just as black as the best plamsa.  I just hope that they bring down the prices of the high end LCDs or that the tech will trickle down to the cheaper models. 

[Rman]

Dark1x, what is your experience with kuros and power usage? I know plasmas have gotten a lot of heat from the green movement regarding their high power consumption.  Is this still an issue a significant issue? I use my TV about 10 hours or so a week, mostly for gaming.  I currently have a samsung lcd, but would love to upgrade to a plasma, preferably kuro since they are going to be phased out soon.  My only reservations are the issues with power consumption.

[Smooth Groove]

I can verify that plasma power consumption are much worse than a LCD's.  After switching from a 46" LCD to my current 58" plasma, I got lots of random blackouts.  The electrician said it was due to the plasma being much more power demanding and he had to add a new power box or something to fix it.  It cost me about $200.     Bear that in mind if you don't wanna risk having to spend money to upgrade your power infrastructure. 

[Rman]

I rent, so I don't know if I would be able to do something like if it becomes an issue.

[dark1x]

Dark1x, what is your experience with kuros and power usage? I know plasmas have gotten a lot of heat from the green movement regarding their high power consumption.  Is this still an issue a significant issue? I use my TV about 10 hours or so a week, mostly for gaming.  I currently have a samsung lcd, but would love to upgrade to a plasma, preferably kuro since they are going to be phased out soon.  My only reservations are the issues with power consumption.

I've only ever used plasmas in apartments and condos (for myself, anyways) and have not run into actual issues anywhere else either.  I can, however, confirm that power consumption is much higher than LCDs.  That is actually the focus of many 2009 plasmas.  The new Panasonics require much less power to operate.  The Kuros, however, were designed with picture quality in mind and the power consumption is high.  It isn't going to kill your electric bill or anything, but you will notice a slight increase.

I guess I could switch to a Panny but I've seen varying reports on whether it's better than my Samsung or not.  Supposedly, the Panny has better black levels and the Samsung has better colors.  I read somewhere that the Samsung has one of the best pictures once it gets professionaly calibrated but I guess I'm never gonna spend $400 on a calibration. 

See, having spent time testing all of these displays, I do not think the Samsungs hold up under close analysis.  From a distance, they look decent enough, but there are inherent flaws present in the image that no amount of calibration can solve.  They simply produce a dirty picture with poor rendering of darker shades (they resort to heavy dithering).  The 2009 Panasonic plasmas are supposed to be a decent improvement over the 2008 models (which produced a cleaner picture than the Samsungs) and they draw much less power.

Many tests only take film based content into account and I believe this is why the dirty image reproduction of the Samsung plasmas often goes unnoticed.  From a distance while viewing a film, it could be written off as film grain.  If you use a PC source or play a game, however, these flaws become extremely apparent (especially when in direct comparison).  The Pioneer produces a much cleaner picture than any of the others, however (especially shadow detail, which is beautifully rendered without resorting to obvious dithering).'

I'm thinking a 2009 Panasonic would be the best choice as you'd get a superior picture and lower power consumption.

[Smooth Groove]

I'm thinking a 2009 Panasonic would be the best choice as you'd get a superior picture and lower power consumption.

What about the NEOPDP or whatever it's called?  I saw that while perusing GAF's HDTV thread.  Is it a Panasonic specific TV or is it just a new type of plasma that other manufacturers are making as well?  What are some of its pros and cons? 

Also, can you please give a quick review of your Kuro.  The typical CNET review doesn't mention stuff like how well the TV works with dark games in broad daynight or how well it upscales 480I/P games. Although I said that I was unlikely to get a Kuro since the 60 incher is outside my budget, who knows if the prices will drop drastically in the next few months?  Since Pioneer is getting out of the plasma business entirely, I bet there'll be some big price reductions.  If the 60" Kuro drops to around $3000, then I'd strong consider it. 

[dark1x]

I'm thinking a 2009 Panasonic would be the best choice as you'd get a superior picture and lower power consumption.

What about the NEOPDP or whatever it's called?  I saw that while perusing GAF's HDTV thread.  Is it a Panasonic specific TV or is it just a new type of plasma that other manufacturers are making as well?  What are some of its pros and cons? 

Also, can you please give a quick review of your Kuro.  The typical CNET review doesn't mention stuff like how well the TV works with dark games in broad daynight or how well it upscales 480I/P games. Although I said that I was unlikely to get a Kuro since the 60 incher is outside my budget, who knows if the prices will drop drastically in the next few months?  Since Pioneer is getting out of the plasma business entirely, I bet there'll be some big price reductions.  If the 60" Kuro drops to around $3000, then I'd strong consider it. 

I believe the new Panasonics ARE based on the NeoPDP (the first generation of NeoPDP, anyways).  The main improvements at the moment are power consumption, however, so you won't see a massive leap in picture quality.

As for the Kuro, I use it as my primary PC display (75ft HDMI, audio, and USB connections from back room to living room), for current gaming consoles, movies, and TV.  I've found many 1080p panels to do a poor job handling low resolution content, but the Kuro produces an excellent picture with 480i and 480p material.  The TV actually works surprisingly well in daylight with minimal reflections (far superior to any other plasma I've used, actually).  There is actually a light sensor you can enable which will dynamically increase or decrease overall screen brightness depending on room lighting conditions.  You can also toggle HDMI inputs between PC and TV mode.  It allows dot-by-dot in both modes, however, should the image be 1080p (a nice feature).  I feel it has the cleanest image of any plasma I've used to date (something plasmas have always struggled with when viewed up close) as well.  It makes an incredible PC display and has no issues with burn-in or image retention even when you disable the orbiter (which I always do).

It's the black levels that truly sell the panel, however.  It is the only flat panel which I believe outperforms a CRT in a dark room.  The ANSI contrast ratio remains as great as ever (common with flat panels, but generally poor on a CRT), but it produces minimal light within the black regions.  It's really quite stunning.  When viewing a film with bars framing the action, for instance, the blacks are dark enough that they fade into the bezel completely while viewing at night.  Not even the 2007 Kuro was good enough for my tastes (and that remains even darker than other current generation plasmas), but I finally feel satisfied.  It's outstanding.

I do have a couple minor complaints, however.  They decided to reduce the amount of control offered to the user within the menu system in order to appeal to less knowledgeable users.  The new interface LOOKS much nicer and is faster, but advanced features cannot be modified within the menu.  Fortunately, movie mode disables all artificial enhancements and produces a highly accurate picture out of the box.  Downside?  The color temp is limited to warm in movie mode.  Now, it's closer to 6500k, which is good, but some people prefer a cooler appearance.  Keep this in mind.  I did end up buying software known as control cal which allows you to adjust service mode settings cleanly from your PC using a serial cable (so much better than using cryptic onscreen menus).  Most of the other preset modes are pretty useless, though, as they enable some dynamic settings.  They allow user adjustment of these options in the Elite series, of course, but that is even more expensive.  Again, probably not an issue for most people, but it is something that annoyed me (but I still managed to perfect my settings, so it is now a non-issue).

Oh, one other feature I adore on this TV is inclusion of discreet inputs.  That is, the remote has a dedicated button for each and every one of the 9 or so inputs available on the TV.  None of that menu bullshit or toggling.  The interface and remote are actually really really high quality, unlike most other displays out there (IMO).  If you can find a decent price, I would recommend going for it as there is nothing coming out in 2009 that can best it (they all decided to focus on energy consumption).  LCDs have improved, but they still can't touch the Kuro.

[Smooth Groove]

So if you use a serial cable for calibration, you don't really need the Elite's extra picture controls?  It seems pretty dumb that Pioneer would charge $2000 for picture controls. 

Also, how is it safe to use your TV for PC purposes without using the orbiter?  Althought IR protection has been much improved in the last few years, isn't IR an inherent flaw of plasmas that can never be completely eliminated? 

[dark1x]

So if you use a serial cable for calibration, you don't really need the Elite's extra picture controls?  It seems pretty dumb that Pioneer would charge $2000 for picture controls. 

Also, how is it safe to use your TV for PC purposes without using the orbiter?  Althought IR protection has been much improved in the last few years, isn't IR an inherent flaw of plasmas that can never be completely eliminated? 

You get about half of the Elite's picture controls (you still can't manually adjust the individual RGB values, for instance) and you need to use $30 software to do it (ControlCAL).  Still, it works pretty well considering you don't need to constantly fiddle with those settings once you've found the proper values.

It's extremely safe to use as a PC display.  That's actually one other Samsung negative I had forgotten to mention.  Samsung plasmas are notorious for serious image retention and burn-in.  I've witnessed this myself.  The Kuros, however, can be left with static imagery on screen for a lengthy period of time without any negative effects.  They were already incredible in 2007, but they've come much further.  I never even think about it anymore, to be honest.  It also produces a razor sharp image in PC mode so you get the clarity of an LCD with the richness of a CRT.  I feel that the Panasonic does not make as good of a PC monitor, however.  Image quality isn't quite as good and image retention is still an issue (at least with the 2008 models).  It's much better than the Samsung in that regard, but not on par with the Kuros.  Now that you've reminded me of the image retention problem, I really think upgrading would be an even better idea as you'd be able to stop thinking about it altogether.  Hours of PC usage doesn't put a dent in the display.  Heck, although I don't get to enjoy lengthy gaming sessions as often anymore, I did manage to spend an entire day with a buddy playing RE5 in co-op (system link).  We literally had RE5 on the display for 14 hours straight with the HUD being visible 90% of the time.  Not a trace of IR afterwards and no orbiter.