Author Topic: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?  (Read 13843 times)

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Boogie

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Diunx

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2009, 10:16:55 PM »
So this thread was about GS? LOL :rofl
Drunk

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2009, 10:21:25 PM »
Missing the point, again :-\

The point being that making pot basically legal without making its cultivation legal ensures that criminals will be the ones growing pot? How fucking novel.

no, the point is that people think you're a whiny dickhead in arguments, and they do not like this
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Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2009, 10:24:09 PM »
Missing the point, again :-\

The point being that making pot basically legal without making its cultivation legal ensures that criminals will be the ones growing pot? How fucking novel.

Wrong.

Here is the sequence and context, spelled out for you.

Step 1)  You make the statement that one of the things that should take place immediately (ie. not in your fantasy future where all drugs are legal, organized crime doesn't exist, etc.) is for police to execute drug warrants calmly and with weapons holstered.
Step 2)  I call you out on it.
Step 3)  You respond with the exact quote I put up earlier on this page: "Boogie, I'm wondering why you think no-knock warrants with SWAT tactics are necessary when looking for drug dealers"  (aka, the MOST FUCKING STUPID THING I'VE HEARD ON THE INTERNET ALL WEEK)
Step 4) I reply "because drug dealers have guns"
Step 5) You reply "And you think they would open fire on a big squad of cops knowing they'd be ending their lives by doing so?" (aka, the NEW MOST FUCKING STUPID THING I'VE HEARD ON THE INTERNET ALL WEEK)

And that is where Malek referencing the Mayerthorpe shootings comes in.  A situation demonstrating your ignorance, where, as per your quote above, SOMEONE  "would open fire on a big squad of cops knowing they'd be ending their lives by doing so?"  (aka YOU'RE distinguished mentally-challenged)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 10:28:13 PM by Boogie »
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tiesto

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2009, 10:29:30 PM »
Guess I'm late to the Patel love in...

:heart Indians :heart
:heart Synthesizers :heart

there we go!  :-*
^_^

The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2009, 10:34:54 PM »
... these types of operations when used against suspected dealers go against the spirit of the American Constitution (but you're from Canada, so I don't know what kind of ideas you guys have on that subject)

Sick cultural burn! :cop
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Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2009, 10:44:00 PM »
<snip>

You're still on this point?

You're the one who cherry-picked Malek's article, missing his point.  Try to pay attention to your own goddamn posts.

Quote
Many people do not want military-style operations being conducted in their neighborhoods.

And I bet more people don't want drug dealers living in their neighbourhoods either.  But then, I doubt that simple majority opinion factors in to your views on what drug policy should be.


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Furthermore, many people would argue that these types of operations when used against suspected dealers go against the spirit of the American Constitution

Are you fucking kidding me?  Unless you folks in the states have spiralled even further than most of us foreigners think, raids on drug houses and the like involve these things called SEARCH WARRANTS, in which every action to be performed must be justified in front of a JUDGE.  That doesn't go against the "spirit of the American constitution", quite on the fucking contrary, you ignorant twat.

 
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No-knock warrants place people at risk because if someone breaks down your front door and you have a weapon, your first impulse is to reach for your weapon,

Well, ignoring the American obsession with guns for home defense (which I think is bullshit), let's change it up.  Because it isn't "someone" breaking down your front door, it's the MOTHERFUCKING POLICE breaking down your door, decked out in POLICE TACTICAL GEAR, which say POLICE, on it, all the while yelling "POLICE SEARCH WARRANT"

If with all of that going on, your "first impulse" is to reach for a weapon, then you fucking deserve to be shot.  When the police kick the door in, your first impulse should be to shoot your empty fucking hands so high in the air that we would think you're trying to grab ahold of the fucking moon.

 
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and the cop's first impulse if he sees this is to shoot you.
 

Yup.

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Did you read a single story from the website I posted about drug-war collateral damage?

of course I did.  In some of those situations, it is obvious the police screwed up.  And I am a firm believer that when the police screw up, we need to be held accountable.

But some of those situations seemed more complicated than the website's two-sentence blurb could convey.

As an aside.  There were 43 people on the list in your link.  Each of those 43 stories is a tragedy.

But as I said, police officers go in hard because there's reason to.  The average number of police officers killed in the line of duty every year in the United States is 152!!.  And HALF of that number is due to being shot, murdered by a criminal.

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It sounds like you think my motivation for wanting to end the drug war is so that I can shoot heroin in the street, when in actuality my motivation is to end the massive toll of death and suffering that the drug war causes.

oh, I have no doubt that is your motivation.  That doesn't excuse your ignorance.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 10:59:11 PM by Boogie »
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Human Snorenado

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2009, 10:47:20 PM »
no, the point is that people think you're a whiny dickhead in arguments, and they do not like this

How do I act like a whiny dickhead in arguments?

Go take a walk, play with a kitten or something, whatever.  Then come back and read your posts and imagine that you're not the one making them.

Probably still doesn't help, tho.  You're just a little too tightly wound for the internets, I'm afraid.
yar

Mandark

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2009, 10:47:36 PM »
If you really wanted to mitigate the death toll of the drug war, you could chip in by not using cocaine when it's monopolized by murderers.  Sheesh.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 10:49:35 PM by Mandark »

Barry Egan

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2009, 10:49:01 PM »

Human Snorenado

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yar


The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2009, 10:50:42 PM »
 :lol

If you really wanted to mitigate the death toll of the drug war, you could chip in by not using cocaine when it's monopolized by murderers.  Sheesh.

It's not his responsibility to know where the opium in his tea came from!  He's washed his hands - washed his hands of this whole mess!
PSP

Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2009, 11:58:39 PM »
GS, willing to fight this until the bitter end, eh?
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Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #74 on: April 06, 2009, 12:04:28 AM »
<snip>

There is a huge difference between *knock* "Good morning, sir, we have a warrant to search these premises," and *door is splintered as a bunch of armed men charge through your door at the same time as two men dressed in black kevlar dive through your front window* "POLICE, FREEZE!!!!"  

 :-\

..

Nope, still don't get it.

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I am pretty certain that the founders of the U.S. Constitution did not consider the latter scenario a "reasonable search."

The founders of the Constitution aren't the ones who sign search warrants.  Judges do.  Judges living in the 21st century, with knowledge of the dangers that drug dealers present.  You sound like the distinguished mentally-challenged pro-gun lobby.  Laws and interpretations of laws change as society changes.  Just as the Second Ammendment didn't envision fully automatic assault rifles (protip: in the 18th century, a firearm was single-shot, and took nearly a minute to reload).

I mean, if you're such a "slave" (pun intended) to the original wordings of the U.S. Constitution, then you must be absolutely outraged that black people are counted as a full person for such things as the census, yes?  Back to counting them as 3/5ths of a person, like the founding fathers intended!

GS, willing to fight this until the bitter end, eh?

Yeah, and his "debating style" (if you can call it that) is such a blunt instrument that he reduces my entire post to a "snip" and posts an out-of-context response that doesn't adequately address, well, anything I wrote.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 12:17:33 AM by Boogie »
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Human Snorenado

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #75 on: April 06, 2009, 12:21:55 AM »
Boogie, whatever you can say about my arguments; at least I have kept my side of it civil and not casually thrown insults into it. 

*whistles innocently*

Sure thing, turbo.
yar

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #76 on: April 06, 2009, 12:36:19 AM »
Boogie, whatever you can say about my arguments; at least I have kept my side of it civil and not casually thrown insults into it.

I make no apology for my language.  I only bust out the cursing and derision at people who do not argue rationally and who distort or ignore my arguments, or simply exhibit sustained ignorance in the face of an honest attempt at education.  You have done so, hence my colourful language.


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The fact of the matter is that military-style operations are conducted against citizens who oftentimes are guilty of no other crime than servicing the market of people who want to get high.

ah, and here is the heart of it.  You view drug dealers as honest businessmen who are simply providing a service to those who desire it.  Nevermind that they push shit on kids.  Nevermind that much of the ecstacy produced by drug producers these days is laced with meth in order to get people hooked.  (or that meth and ecstacy labs are practically TIME BOMBS waiting to go off). Nevermind that drug dealers own illegal firearms, and tend to commit numerous other crimes in addition to the "service" they provide.

This is why I use abusive language.  because you say STUPID FUCKING SHIT like the above.


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This offends me as a human being.

Poor baby.  What offends me is shitrats murdering police officers who are carrying out legal, judicially-authorized searches and other warrants.


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There are a number of ways that drug dealers could be arrested that do not resort to these dangerous tactics.

NO, THERE AREN'T.

Are you paying any attention?  I'm a police officer.  I am arguing from a position of authority and knowledge about the issues of police officer safety, risk assessment, and Use of Force.

Tell me, what's your expertise on the subject?


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For example, the suspected dealer could be arrested when he leaves his house,

Yeah, they can arrest drug dealers like that.  But they'll still be doing it at gunpoint.   And that only deals with the arrest.  In order to secure convictions, one needs to find evidence.  That is done through searches.  And when you search a drug dealer's house you don't know WHO THE FUCK IS INSIDE AND WHETHER THEY MIGHT HAVE WEAPONS.


 
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or the police could announce the warrant over a loudspeaker.

 :smug

My first time using that smiley.  It feels good.

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It's clear that I'm more idealistic when it comes to privacy and property rights than you are, but I don't think that I'm so idealistic as to be an "ignorant twat."

Oh, you are.  And it's not about privacy and property rights.  If the warrant is signed, your privacy and property rights are going to be infringed upon by the state whether we ask nicely or not.  What a hard entry is about is the safety of the very lives of the officers involved.

 
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You could argue that evidence could be destroyed if the police didn't have the element of surprise, but I would say that I hope the police have more evidence against these people than mere possession if these tactics are to be used.

Well, that's just, your opinion, man.

Fortunately, the justice system of the United States would seem to disagree with that opinion.  (and :lol at police searching for evidence of "mere possession" in drug searches.  You don't know anything about what evidence police are looking for in a search. :lol)

And again (sigh), it's not just about evidence.  It's about officer safety.

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I'm not saying that no-knock warrants should absolutely never be used, but I don't think that the crimes that these people are often committing justify the use of them.

That's nice.  Your opinion means dick all to me.  You're not risking your life on the pleasant, cooperative attitude of drug dealers.

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Also, for the record, I am strongly in favor of stricter gun control.

hooray for you.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 12:45:59 AM by Boogie »
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #77 on: April 06, 2009, 12:40:55 AM »
Boogie out of interest, do you think SWAT type raids of overwhelming force are a good way of deterring a potential fire fight?

010

Diunx

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #78 on: April 06, 2009, 12:43:12 AM »
This thread sucks.
Drunk

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #79 on: April 06, 2009, 12:52:27 AM »
Boogie out of interest, do you think SWAT type raids of overwhelming force are a good way of deterring a potential fire fight?



Yes, I do.  Not that they'll always deter the subject, but mere human psychology is such that you're far less likely to confront an officer who is alert, dressed up tactically, has his firearm drawn, goes in with superior numbers, and overwhelms your senses, rather than going in calmly and softly, being polite, and not appearing tactically aware.

That's part of why people think cops are assholes, because we have to be in control of a situation, we have to make people believe that they will not win a physical encounter.

There's a story of a big tough, higher-up Hell's Angel.  Tattoos up the wazoo, you know, a real tough guy.  The guy who probably brags to his buddies about standing up to those "fucking pigs".

But when a Canadian SWAT team executed an arrest warrant for him and busted down the door to the clubhouse, he was so terrified and timid that he literally shit his pants.  But if a couple of general duty officers knocked on the door and politely asked him to come with them because he's under arrest, things probably would have gone far differently.


This thread sucks.

Sorry.  :-\


spoiler (click to show/hide)
Patel  :-* :tauntaun
[close]

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better?
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« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 12:54:21 AM by Boogie »
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Flannel Boy

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #80 on: April 06, 2009, 01:04:19 AM »
Boogie can enter my back door unannounced whenever he likes. No warrants necessary.  :-*



The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #81 on: April 06, 2009, 01:05:20 AM »
Hence forth, all consensual, but violent anal penetration will be referred to as, "SWAT-style" or "No Knockin'".
PSP

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #82 on: April 06, 2009, 01:07:13 AM »
Boogie can enter my back door unannounced whenever he likes. No warrants necessary.  :-*




 :hyper :shh
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Cormacaroni

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #83 on: April 06, 2009, 01:24:20 AM »
'The ones who push shit on kids could be arrested on the street. '

On the street? While they're pushing drugs to kids? REALLY?

Frankly, the risk to a drug dealer's front door seems more acceptable than the risk from a shoot-up in the middle of the street with kids around.
vjj

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #84 on: April 06, 2009, 01:36:10 AM »


The ones who push shit on kids could be arrested on the street. I'd honestly have no trouble with meth labs being busted in; my argument is that these tactics shouldn't be used against suspected low-level dealers.

And again, you have ignored my previous point that low-level dealers can be JUST AS VIOLENT AS THE HIGHER UPS.

The only reason why we're going around in circles is that YOU ARE IGNORING WHAT I AM SAYING.  THAT IS WHY I AM CALLING YOU NAMES.




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You are also arguing from a position of extreme bias as an officer.

Ah, so you are ignoring my knowledge under the guise of me being "biased."

smh


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Whatever your job is, your first priority is going to be making your job easier.

WRONG.  My fucking job, my first priority, is coming home alive at the end of the day.  THAT'S the basis for most of my positions on this subject.




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So you're admitting that these tactics would be used when the police don't already have substantial evidence? That's horrible.

Now you just don't understand the legal basis for a search warrant.  Reasonable and probable ground to believe, etc., etc.  

 :-\

The purpose of a search is to FIND EVIDENCE.  By DEFINITION that means that police don't have ALL THAT THEY NEED.  But, if they are able to articulate to a judge in a search warrant, that there are reasonable and probable grounds to believe that a search of that place will afford evidence of the offence, then the judge may authorize the search.

Do you fucking know anything about the justice system?


Quote

"This is the police. We have you surrounded. Come out with your hands up" has worked for centuries.

Public policing has only existed since the mid 1800s.  Google Sir Robert Peel.

And again, who the fuck says that has worked for centuries?  You're pulling shit out of your ass from watching TV shows or something.  gtfo.

And did you miss the part where fully automatic weapons have become more widespread in recent decades?  Society, crime, and technology change.  So shit that works for centuries doesn't work anymore.

A couple decades ago, all a police officer had on his belt was a gun and a nightstick.  So you were either getting shot, or you were getting beaten down.  But now we have pepper spray and tazers, because times change.


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I'm not saying that no-knock warrants should never be used, but they should be used in extreme cases. Over 50,000 knockless warrants were served in 2005, vs. 3000 in 1981. Clearly more discretion should be used in this matter.

Maybe.  But you're not providing any context for that stat.  That increase doesn't happen for no reason.  Perhaps there is a relation with incidents of assaults on officer executing warrants, etc.



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As I said, it's unfortunate that your job is so difficult, but the rights of citizens should be the first priority.

and again, we're talking about search warrants.  Those rights are already being infringed by judicial authorization.  Police and public safety are the top priorities for an officer.


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Yes, it is my opinion that if extreme tactics are going to be used, they should be used in cases where there is already a substantial body of evidence against the suspect. Doors shouldn't get broken in because of an "anonymous tip."

Every provision has to be justified in the warrant.  If that "anonymous tip" is reliable, and says that there are guns in the house, then guess what...



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The entire justification for knockless warrants is that evidence could potentially be destroyed if police announced their arrival.

Wrong.  That's part of the justification, but not all of it.
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Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #85 on: April 06, 2009, 01:38:59 AM »
No bias in th...o wait cato institute.

Hmm, didn't GS just say he's in favour of strong gun control?  Maybe he should see what CATO's opinion is on that...
MMA

Human Snorenado

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With apologies to Chipopo
« Reply #86 on: April 06, 2009, 01:42:56 AM »



yar

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #87 on: April 06, 2009, 01:48:17 AM »


- Knockless warrants are often authorized on extremely flimsy evidence

About to go to bed, don't have time to read it now.

But on this point.  Knockless warrants may be overused in the States.  But decreasing them won't satisfy you.  Do you know why?  Because there isn't much of a difference between a knockless and knock drug search warrant.

Knockless:
*Door is busted open, police rush in with guns drawn, yelling police, and arresting everyone inside to be sorted out later*

Knock:
*knock on door, yell "police, search warrant."  Wait 5-10 seconds.  If no one answers door in 5-10 seconds, Door is busted open, police rush in with guns drawn, yelling police, and arresting everyone inside to be sorted out later*


Your objection was to going in hard, with guns drawn.  That's going to happen with or without a knock.  Doesn't matter.

I know that the article opposes that practise, but I don't care.  It is not safe for a search team to knock on the door and stand around waiting politely for the drug dealer to come open the door for them.  Period.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 01:50:11 AM by Boogie »
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Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #88 on: April 06, 2009, 01:59:08 AM »


http://www.arktimes.com/Articles/ArticleViewer.aspx?ArticleID=68509828-1566-472d-9a68-79f43b522950


Oh, wonderful.  Looks like a one-sided article (because the individual gets to blab to the press, but the police are under strict rules not to leak information in order to protect the integrity of the trial.  This inevitably makes the police look bad in the eyes of the media.  I'd be interested in hearing the follow-up to the case)

So it's a he-said she-said situation, except that the dude is admitting he had a gun and that he reached for it.  Like I said, first instinct should be to raise your hands, not grab your fucking handgun.  Police bust into house, dude grabs gun, dude gets shot.  I have little sympathy for him, to be perfectly honest.

anyhow, bed time for me.  I'll see about continuing the circus tomorrow.
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BlueTsunami

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #89 on: April 06, 2009, 02:22:28 AM »
Cop killing justified

:smug
:9

The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #90 on: April 06, 2009, 02:33:26 AM »
SHINOBIWORLD

WHERE COPS FIGHT CRIME WITH LOLLIPOPS AND POST-IT NOTES.

OPIATES FREELY AVAILABLE IN SOBE PRODUCTS AND YOUR LOCAL 7-ELEVEN.

GANG WARS ARE SOLVED THROUGH JOUSTING.
(wait there are no gang wars, since we legalized drugs and got rid of unnecessary no knock warrants and swat tactics)

THE ARTS COMMUNITY IS OVERRATED.

SHINOBIWORLD: THE FUTURE OF TOMORROW - TODAY!
PSP

Cormacaroni

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #91 on: April 06, 2009, 02:46:04 AM »
:lol

well-played, Willco
vjj

Phoenix Dark

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #92 on: April 06, 2009, 03:08:22 AM »
[youtube=560,345]c9-M2tqIX38[/youtube]
GS would you calmly serve a warrant to these two distinguished black gentlemen?
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 03:13:04 AM by Phoenix Dark »
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EmCeeGrammar

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #93 on: April 06, 2009, 05:09:25 AM »
Jackfrost was more of a snarky but charming guy to me.  Patel seems a bit more jaded.

Maybe it was just the old slime avatar
<8D)
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twerd

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #94 on: April 06, 2009, 05:25:43 AM »
Okay, reply to this tomorrow, but you are aware that in most cases a citizen is allowed to defend his or her home against intruders, even to the point of killing the intruder if necessary? Knockless warrants combined with this philosophy can lead to a lot of problems.

Are you B!TCH on the other forums?
wut

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #95 on: April 06, 2009, 05:33:08 AM »
Green Shinobi is FoC's alt.
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #96 on: April 06, 2009, 08:33:57 AM »
GS, maybe you should take a break from this forum for a couple of weeks.  You can't seem to make another post here without digging yourself in a deeper hole.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 08:41:05 AM by T EXP »
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Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #97 on: April 07, 2009, 08:30:52 PM »
Okay, reply to this tomorrow, but you are aware that in most cases a citizen is allowed to defend his or her home against intruders, even to the point of killing the intruder if necessary? Knockless warrants combined with this philosophy can lead to a lot of problems.

Okay, first of all, yes, of course a citizen has a right to self defense, and a right to defend his property and his home.  But that should not turn into the right to take any and all action he feels like.  I must confess that I know nothing of what the limits to those rights are in United States Law, but in general, self-defence requires that you only use necessary force. Suppose, for example, a 17 year old Amirox were to break into my house to steal some DVDs and wreck some shit because he thought no one was home.  But I was home.  I would be justified in kicking his ass and throwing him out the door because I'm defending my property and my home.  But if I were to come downstairs, see the disgusting fat kid looting my shit, go back upstairs and fetch my shotgun, and come back down and blow him away, I would not be justified in doing so.  I would be a murderer, because that was not necessary force.  It was just a distinguished mentally-challenged, obese, self-centered druggie teenager with no respect for the rights of others trying to have some fun by wrecking other people's shit.  Deserving of an ass kicking?  Sure, but not some 12-gauge buckshot to the chest.

Of course, that example is not directly relevant to our discussion.

But I can tell you my opinion, and that is that Americans are generally way too obsessed with this right.  Some Americans seem to get positively horny at the idea of repelling a home invasion with their God-given handgun.  And it goes to the idea expressed in the thread about America becoming desensitized to mass killings that American culture seems to value and idolize the "self" even over the value of human life itself.

In any event, that has nothing to do with judicially-authorized warrants executed by police.  You have the right to defend your home.  You do not have the right to resist a judicial warrant by force.  Police who execute such warrants are wearing labels identifying themselves as such, and announce their presence, loudly, as such.  When making an entry, we are trained to constantly yell "POLICE, STOP!" or "POLICE, SEARCH WARRANT" until our voices give out.

Right to defend your property?  Check.
Right to shoot at police?  Not check.

So let's not kid ourselves here.  If the police are doing their jobs, there's no question about who they are and what's going on, and thus no justification for those inside to resist.  It is America's "culture" of guns and violence that lead people to shoot at police, not the other way around.

Or put another way, how on EARTH could you possibly interpret a police raid as anything other than....well, a police raid?

How many criminal organizations in the United States are there that routinely conduct home invasions with teams of 10+ people, all decked out with body armour, and armed with submachine guns, automatic shotguns, and assault rifles?  And who make their entry by yelling and announcing their presence (with those yells being "STOP POLICE" to boot?)  I mean, this is the USA, not Mexico.  Can you show me some articles, news clips, or studies?  'cause if this is happening, fuck, we better write off the ol' US of A right now.  I'm willing to harbour select EB'ers on my couch and sponsor you for immigration to Canada.

And let's be serious, if the above WERE happening, how in GOD'S NAME would the best course of action be to grab your nearest gun of choice and start firing back?!  There's a dozen of them versus one of you, they're armed with submachine guns and assault rifles, they're wearing body armour, and they've caught you by surprise.  If you have ANY FUCKING SENSE OF SELF-PRESERVATION, your reaction should be just about the same as if you thought they were the police:  to stick your empty fucking hands straight in the air.  And then let them take whatever the fuck they want and hope they let you live.

Now, to finish up, I'll go back to a phrase you have used repeatedly, and is also found on that CATO article (perhaps that's where you got it from?)  You repeatedly refer to the "militarization of police", as if that is a boogeyman, a bad thing.  As if it is self-evident that it is something to be reviled.  Now, that may be a very effective co-opting of language to shape the debate, but let me ask why that is something to be feared?  Or blamed on the police and authorities?

Generally speaking, I think that our police forces reflect the society that they police.  Authoritarian regimes such as China and the Soviet Union were repressive, with no regard for human rights, and hence their police followed that pattern.  Western societies have entrenched human rights, and have checks and balances in their political systems.  And so it is with Western police services, which are subject to civilian oversight, checks and balances, and training that emphasizes conflict-resolution as much as physical training and defensive tactics.  And so it is, in fact, that even Western police forces over the past half-century or so have evolved to reduce their reliance on physical force, increased civilian oversight and accountability.  Certainly in Canada, this shift has been reflected in the education levels of police, as today a police officer usually has some sort of postsecondary degree, often a full four-year Bachelor's, while fifty years ago that probably would have been unheard of.  It's not a perfect system, but no system is.  Yes there are corrupt cops and asshole cops, but you just have to deal with them on a case-by-case basis, and gradually tweak the system when those imperfections reveal themselves.

So, given that, what is to be made of the development and growth of SWAT teams and other tactical teams in the US and Canada since the 1970s? 

The CATO article tries to paint a picture of an ever-more-prevalent police state, increasing police violence, and deteriorating rights of private citizens.  But of course that's what they did.  It's CATO, they're libertarians, and they view the almost every government and societal trend of the past 30 years with hostility.  The CATO article cites the increasing prevalence of SWAT teams since the 1980s as a "bad thing" in such a way that its "badness" should be self evident.

But what might be an alternative theory?  First, I will admit not having any background or expertise in the history and development of SWAT teams (though I will admit a desire to join the RCMP equivalent, the Emergency Response Team, at some point in my career).  Nonetheless, with just a few facts, I will present an opposing viewpoint.

As per http://home1.gte.net/vzn05sxc/lawfacts.htm

The deadliest year in United States Law Enforcement history was 1974.  That year, 268 police officers were killed in the line of duty.  In fact, the 1970s was the deadliest decade for law enforcement in history.  A total of 2,182 officers were killed, or an average of 218 per year.

When did SWAT teams come about?  The idea for SWAT is attributed to Daryl Gates of the LAPD, in 1968. The first deployment of SWAT was in 1969, and in 1971, the LAPD formed the first full-time SWAT team.

  The FBI's Hostage Rescue Team was created in 1982.  In Canada, the first RCMP ERT was formed in the 70s.  As the CATO article states, these sorts of units expanded throughout the 80s and 90s.

What happened to law enforcement fatalities in that period?  Well gee, they decreased.  From the 1970s figure of 218 per year, the 1990s saw an average of 152 fatalities per year.  Quoth the article:

Quote
Largely due to the increased use of soft body armor, better training and improved equipment, police deaths have been on the decline for the past two decades. During the 1980’s we averaged 187 officer fatalities each year, and in the 1990’s we averaged 153.

So, in the three decades following the development and growth of SWAT teams, police officer fatalities went from an average of 218 per year in the 70s, 187 in the 80s, and 152 in the 90s.  The "militarization" of police, as you put it, had a purpose.  It has saved lives.

Yes, I know, correlation is not causation, but I wonder whether those statistics made their way into that book that CATO is shilling in the article.  If I were a betting man, I'd say no.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 09:56:58 PM by Boogie »
MMA

Flannel Boy

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #98 on: April 07, 2009, 08:42:16 PM »
holy shit loki.

Admit that your ulterior purpose was simply to ridicule Amirox.

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #99 on: April 07, 2009, 08:50:21 PM »
holy shit loki.

 :lol

spoiler (click to show/hide)
maybe I've found a future course of study; the theory and development of modern policing.  time to go searching for a part-time grad program?...
[close]

Quote
Admit that your ulterior purpose was simply to ridicule Amirox.

 ....maaaaaybe...  :shh
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 08:55:22 PM by Boogie »
MMA

Madrun Badrun

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #100 on: April 07, 2009, 08:51:27 PM »
Boogie :bow2

Sometimes, when I make love to a woman, I pretend I'm Patel.

Other times, I pretend she's Patel.

 :lol

Rman

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #101 on: April 07, 2009, 08:57:28 PM »
Wow @ this thread. :lol

Cormacaroni

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #102 on: April 07, 2009, 09:28:29 PM »
fantastic (and entertaining) post, Boogie

:bow Boogie :bow2
vjj

Fresh Prince

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #103 on: April 07, 2009, 09:36:47 PM »
Boogie will be commissioner of mounting one day. Mark my words.
888

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #104 on: April 07, 2009, 09:58:56 PM »
Boogie for Icon.
MMA

The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #105 on: April 07, 2009, 10:13:37 PM »
I don't think you can recommend yourself for Icon privileges.

Plus, I'm not so sure the rest of 'em are so keen about letting Johnny Law into our den of sin.
PSP

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #106 on: April 07, 2009, 10:14:12 PM »
I don't think you can recommend yourself for Icon privileges.

Plus, I'm not so sure the rest of 'em are so keen about letting Johnny Law into our den of sin.

awww, damn.

I'm sure my verbosity will at least garner me Loki's vote. :P   :-*
MMA

Brehvolution

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #107 on: April 07, 2009, 10:14:18 PM »
Boogie for Icon.

.

What a thread derail. Sorry Patel.

Goddam
©ZH

The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #108 on: April 07, 2009, 10:15:49 PM »
I'm sure my verbosity will at least garner me Loki's vote. :P   :-*

His is a silent vote.
PSP

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #109 on: April 07, 2009, 10:16:44 PM »
I'm sure my verbosity will at least garner me Loki's vote. :P   :-*

His is a silent vote.

such cruel irony
MMA

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #110 on: April 07, 2009, 10:17:13 PM »
I am fine with making the good sheriff an icon
duc

The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #111 on: April 07, 2009, 10:18:47 PM »
I don't want to hear any protests when the RCMP raid your house all SWAT-style with "No Knock" warrants after you post about your blatant Internet piracy.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #112 on: April 07, 2009, 10:24:54 PM »
I am a good librul and model citizen :tophat

Not a dirty cokesnorting, restroom toe-tapping kid-diddlin' Republican figurt :punch
duc

The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #113 on: April 07, 2009, 10:28:01 PM »
Also, imagine if we lured Boogie into the seedy underbelly of the Internet.  Perhaps he would be seduced by our free spending debauchery, and slip into a state of euphoria of which there is no escape!
PSP

Boogie

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #114 on: April 07, 2009, 10:29:35 PM »
Also, imagine if we lured Boogie into the seedy underbelly of the Internet.  Perhaps he would be seduced by our free spending debauchery, and slip into a state of euphoria of which there is no escape!

hey now, I escaped OA mostly unscathed, surely you can do no worse than that?!
MMA

The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #115 on: April 07, 2009, 10:30:11 PM »
The Icon Forum makes Opa-Ages look like fucking Disneyland.
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drew

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #116 on: April 07, 2009, 10:32:27 PM »
oa sucks now

icon forum is a snoozefestival

federwang trippin again

The Fake Shemp

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2009, 10:34:21 PM »
You wish you had access to the Icon forum - it's incredible.

It's like, being born in a bath full of Santana DVX.
PSP

drew

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2009, 10:35:25 PM »
Not a dirty cokesnorting, restroom toe-tapping kid-diddlin' Republican figurt :punch

u ever try coke on opioids?

feels good man

demi

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Re: Is it possible to ignore someone so you don't receive PMs from them?
« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2009, 10:40:24 PM »
I will allow Boogie if he frisks the huskiest of canadian men in the name of justice

And document it

On tape
fat