Author Topic: wrpg/jrpg storytelling, I overgeneralize and you correct me + talk of future  (Read 1450 times)

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Bebpo

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After finishing Fallout 2 and completing that trilogy, I'm noticing a trend in all the wrpgs I've played:  They create interesting worlds where every town/city has story depth and interesting inhabitants; yet the main plot is like 30 mins total and totally undermined by the fact that it's usually no more indepth than a subquest at some town/city.  There is almost no character development given to the antagonist or main story NPC characters (if there are any besides the antagonist), and the entire main plot consists of a paper-thin single concept or two (find dad!  Stop bad guys!; Rescue people!). 

Meanwhile jrpgs are setup like novels and films and spend most of the entire plot developing the story NPC characters, the antagonists, and the plot itself with many twists and turns as it progresses.  Yet the towns/cities are paper-thin and just there for NPCs to shout out their 1 or 2 pre-programmed lines.  The towns look awesome with great art direction and can be sprawling.  Yet all the doors are often locked, or if they aren't there's nothing to do in them besides find a chest or two and shop.

Now I haven't played a lot of wrpgs, so maybe they aren't all like that.  Though it does seem a bit weird that every single one I've played has the same exact setup of "go to a town/city, talk to everyone and get quests.  Go do them for xp/items/money.  Go to next town and repeat; repeat at every town until you reach the final location and finish the story", but maybe they aren't all like that.  It's true most jrpgs are just "Go to town, watch cutscene, shop, go to dungeon, watch cutscene, go to next town; repeat", so maybe both genre are just kind of stuck in a setup.

As for the future, it would make sense for the two extremes to merge to a better middle.  Out of the handful of wrpgs I've played, Mass Effect is by leaps and bounds the most accompished in its storytelling because for the most part it does exactly this.  Mass Effect has cities/towns with sidequests like a wrpg, ones where you can complete things by talking, ones where you go and shoot some stuff; but at the same time it has a bunch of main plot scenarios so you are constantly following the main plotline and learning more about the antagonists, the other main story NPCs, and that way when it comes down to the epic finale it's satisfying because instead of all this main story plot OUT OF NOWHERE, it's all been built up the entire game and finally pays off in the end.  I'd like to see jrpgs start opening their towns up more for story development through quests and interesting people, and I'd like to see wrpgs focus more heavily on the main plot with more character development, and a longer more in-depth main plotline that has depth and is interesting/exciting.

It just seems the two old-school structures still in place are at such opposite extremes that they lose sight of how to tell a story.


BobFromPikeCreek

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No story sure beats horrible teen anime drama.
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WrikaWrek

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Well the majority of JRPGs have complete and utter garbage story, and shit characters, very much like the majority of WRPGs i would say.

HOWEVER

If you decide one day maybe, to play the WRPGs i've recommended before, to someone who likes story driven games, like Neverwinter Nights 2 + Mask of The Betrayer, Knights of The Old Republic 1 & 2, The Witcher...

Maybe then you will step out of the loot whore RPGs, and see some great story driven WRPgs.

But the point is, there's just as much WRPGs (good ones) that focus on those elements you like + world background, as there are JRPGs with good stories, or more.

Joe Molotov

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JRPGs are semi-interactive animes.
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Eric P

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i want to just give a shout out to MERP

MERP!
Tonya

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I like story-driven JRPGs, but the bulk of the ones that have come out recently have just had horrible stories, characters, dialogue, and voice-acting to the point where I just can't stand to play them anymore. On the other hand, I like free-roaming WRPGs like Fallout 3, where I can just sit back and explore the world and play things at my own pace. So it doesn't bother me that there's not a lot of convergence.

I just wish that JRPGs hadn't devolved into, as Joe said, semi-interactive animes.
dog

recursivelyenumerable

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isn't the story-based Final Fantasy style of JRPG just one subgenre, though?  there are others like SaGa series or even Dragon Quest that emphasize that aspect less.
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Great Rumbler

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isn't the story-based Final Fantasy style of JRPG just one subgenre, though?  there are others like SaGa series or even Dragon Quest that emphasize that aspect less.

The problem is that it seems pretty much all of the high-profile JRPGs fall into that subgenre, but maybe I'm stuck on SE too much.

I think I need to bust out my PS2 again and try some Persona...
dog

Mondain

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play that Vampire the Masquerade Bloodlines games now Bepbo, with the latest fan patch, and the original Deus Ex, I think it's just what you were looking for

my two favorite games of all time... I wish I could wipe off my memories of them and play them again for the first time
« Last Edit: May 19, 2009, 07:25:06 PM by Mondain »

demi

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i wish i could wipe my memories of ever having played deus ex period.
fat

tiesto

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I prefer japanesu RPGs, mainly due to the battle system, flashier effects, more interesting worlds/environments, more focus on music (VERY important to me, in a game, surprise surprise...). But I find quite a few WRPGs I like every so often. Namely the oldskool Ultima games and for some reason Bethesda games.
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Great Rumbler

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You should play some Planescape Torment, tiesto.
dog

tiesto

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You should play some Planescape Torment, tiesto.

I have the game, unfortunately haven't really found time to play much of it. I really want to, though, it always looked interesting to me (a friend in college showed me the game way back upon release and I always thought it looked more entertaining than your average PC RPG of the time).
^_^

Great Rumbler

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You should play some Planescape Torment, tiesto.

I have the game, unfortunately haven't really found time to play much of it. I really want to, though, it always looked interesting to me (a friend in college showed me the game way back upon release and I always thought it looked more entertaining than your average PC RPG of the time).

It's Black Isle's masterpiece and Black Isle had a nasty habit of making RPGs that were a lot better than everyone else's. It probably wouldn't be a stretch to call it one of the best RPGs ever.
dog

Bebpo

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Well the majority of JRPGs have complete and utter garbage story, and shit characters, very much like the majority of WRPGs i would say.

HOWEVER

If you decide one day maybe, to play the WRPGs i've recommended before, to someone who likes story driven games, like Neverwinter Nights 2 + Mask of The Betrayer, Knights of The Old Republic 1 & 2, The Witcher...

Maybe then you will step out of the loot whore RPGs, and see some great story driven WRPgs.

But the point is, there's just as much WRPGs (good ones) that focus on those elements you like + world background, as there are JRPGs with good stories, or more.

Yeah, everyone and their mom is telling me that I got to play NWN2 + MoB next.  I'm not really that into "slay the dragon!!" fantasy, but I'll give it a shot after so much praise it gets.  Does MoB actually add stuff into NWN2 itself so I should install NWN2 & MoB before playing?  Or do I just play NWN2 first, then install MoB and play that?

So yeah, the next wrpg I play will be NWN2.  I actually tried the Witcher for a few mins (got the nice import LE when it was on sale for <$20) and the cinematics and art design seemed cool but then the battle started and it felt like a homemade game ^^;  I'm totally going to play it, but I think that moved it below NWN2 in the pile of Planescape, NWN2, Kotor2, Witcher, Baldurs Gate 1/2, etc...

I prefer japanesu RPGs, mainly due to the battle system, flashier effects, more interesting worlds/environments, more focus on music (VERY important to me, in a game, surprise surprise...). But I find quite a few WRPGs I like every so often. Namely the oldskool Ultima games and for some reason Bethesda games.

I'm going to get murdered for this, but I was telling duckroll how one thing I've noticed in EVERY wrpg I've played is that none of them have a great battle system.  They all lack a strategic aspect with sub-systems and customization that have depth like a good jrpg (SMT for instance).    Every wrpg I've played is super simple in battle.  Just run up and slash dudes or in fallout's case, stand and shoot everything that moves near you.  Again, Mass Effect was kinda cool with the pause game and use spell, then fight while they're recharging battle system.  It was totally broken by 1/2 and ridiculously easy, but it was fun.  Man, I really liked Mass Effect a lot  :o  Can't wait for ME2. 

Also in wrpgs it seems like if you do all the sidequests you get really really really overpowered and the games become jokingly easy.  In jrpgs you can't do the sidequests until the very end usually so this doesn't happen.

I also agree that they have a very different focus on music.  In jrpg it's like how it is in Japanese games in general and anime:  The music is LOUD and in your face all the time so you notice it.  In wrpg the music is very background ambient and just scores out the experience like a hollywood film.  I don't think one approach is necessarily better, but jrpg music tends to be more memorable because it's thrown in your face so much.

 
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 12:50:18 AM by Bebpo »

pilonv1

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I'm going to get murdered for this, but I was telling duckroll how one thing I've noticed in EVERY wrpg I've played is that none of them have a great battle system.

Kings Bounty has a cool battle system. Also any of the D&D games have battle systems that appear to be simple. KOTOR for all it's faults has a great battle system.
itm

Bebpo

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Quote
I'm going to get murdered for this, but I was telling duckroll how one thing I've noticed in EVERY wrpg I've played is that none of them have a great battle system.

Kings Bounty has a cool battle system. Also any of the D&D games have battle systems that appear to be simple. KOTOR for all it's faults has a great battle system.

King's Bounty doesn't really count from what I played off it.  It's more like a board game/srpg.  I mean that in a good way, I thought it rocked though I only did the intro bits.

My Kotor game consisted of me building a lightsaber, running up to any guy in my way and walk away from the keyboard as it auto-slashes until they are dead.  Or if it was the final boss I had to heal between doing that.  The main problem was just that I was godly powerful with a lightsaber and it left skill elsewhere.  It's kind of the equivalent of FFX where you just keep tapping X.

pilonv1

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The final boss in KOTOR was fucking awful. I never built an awesome lightsaber, I just used force push and destroy droid all the time so that's why I found it more enjoyable.
itm