Author Topic: mary sue (attn: drohne)  (Read 1555 times)

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recursivelyenumerable

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mary sue (attn: drohne)
« on: May 24, 2009, 03:38:43 AM »
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/004188.html

"Mary Sue literary theory has changed my professional life. Before, when discussing manuscripts with my colleagues, I had to say things “You know, one of those books that keeps telling you how wonderful and talented and perfect the main character is and how much everyone loves her, but aside from that there’s nothing at stake and nothing really happens? No logic, no causality, no narrative development, just that character being wonderful every barfy step of the way?”

Generally they knew what I meant; we see a lot of books like that. But those conversations have gotten much easier now that I can say things like “See if the author will agree to rewrite it from another character’s point of view—that main character is a screaming Mary Sue.” Or: “I sent it back. The agent was all excited about how the author’s ‘expanding into a new genre’, but it’s just a Mary Sue with jousting scenes pasted in.”

So yay for the fanfic universe for putting a name to that. They came up with the idea of formalizing the role of the beta reader, too, which is another piece of really useful literature-generating technology. If that surprises you, recollect that the primary characteristic of fanfic isn’t that it’s amateurish or derivative; it’s that it’s legally unpublishable. Some very smart people read and/or write fanfic.

(Someday, not today, I’ll tell the story of how, years ago, Joanna Russ and I used Star Trek fanfic as a sort of Rosetta Stone to decipher recurrent themes and motifs in fantasy and SF written by women. It’s often easier to see underlying patterns and mechanisms in amateur fiction than in slicker commercial work. This started when Joanna identified and described some recurrent narrative motifs she’d spotted in the Trek slash of the day, of which the inverse relationship between incidence of explicit sex and liebestod denouements was the most obvious and least important. There was much more to it. She laid out her entire description; and I, considering it, said “Which is not to say that The Left Hand of Darkness is a specimen of Star Trek slash fiction.” Joanna’s jaw dropped, and we stared at each other in wild surmise. The patterns not only fitted; they explained some otherwise inexplicable plot twists in that novel. We were on to something. And—hey! What about thus-and-such story by Zenna Henderson? And that one by Leigh Brackett? And so forth and so on, ever onward. For the next few weeks we were stoned on literary theory and the codebreaker’s buzz of seeing a seemingly knotty puzzle resolve into plaintext.)"

so there.  you were missing out
QED

Mandark

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2009, 03:54:46 AM »
I read that back when it was posted!  I remember when they had their own individual blogs!  E-cred!

Also on the topic of Mary Sue, I just watched Twilight.

Kara

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2009, 05:51:41 AM »
How bad was it? I only watch bad movies these days.

drohne

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2009, 01:58:12 PM »
'mary sue' sounds like it should be a gay subcultural term for -- i don't know -- something

i'm taking it back

Positive Touch

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 02:06:04 PM »
lol that's exactly what i tought when i heard it.  like it should be a name for a lesbian housewife or something
pcp

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 02:49:32 PM »
'mary sue' sounds like it should be a gay subcultural term for -- i don't know -- something

i'm taking it back

You're gay, too?
omg

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2009, 03:04:29 PM »
Some very smart people read and/or write fanfic.

very smart people

write fanfic


Uhhhhhh

Great Rumbler

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2009, 04:28:07 PM »
It really boggles my mind that stuff like Twilight and Eragon are so accepted these days, when they're clearly works of wish-fulfillment Mary Su fanfic.
dog

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2009, 05:06:25 PM »
You're gay, too?

working on it -- besides my total physical and mental aversion to other dudes, i think i'd make an excellent homosexual

Mandark

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2009, 05:56:12 PM »
How bad was it? I only watch bad movies these days.

Aggressively, comprehensively bad.  I thought it was going to be terrible and it still crushed my expectations.  Acting dialogue, cinematography, special effects, score, everything.

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2009, 06:43:21 PM »
isn't it made by basically the same creative team behind Thirteen, which was supposed to be good?

also, drohne and I are 90% okcupid matches  :heart
QED

Flannel Boy

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2009, 06:48:08 PM »
isn't it made by basically the same creative team behind Thirteen, which was supposed to be good?

also, drohne and I are 90% okcupid matches  :heart

When you're kissing someone who's too much like you / It's like kissing on a mirror--Jenny Lewis


Mandark

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2009, 06:55:54 PM »
isn't it made by basically the same creative team behind Thirteen, which was supposed to be good?

Checking imdb, yeah.  Same director, cinematographer, editor.  Haven't seen Thirteen so I can't say whether they just suck or were mailing it in.

I mean, the guy who did the score is a long time collaborator with the Coen brothers and his work as as bad as anyone's.  When the bad guys show up there's a ridiculous guitar lick that made my friend pause the DVD and yell "GEE-TAWR!"

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2009, 07:08:41 PM »
Quote
When you're kissing someone who's too much like you / It's like kissing on a mirror--Jenny Lewis

awesome, I dig mirrors.
QED

Great Rumbler

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2009, 09:33:26 PM »
isn't it made by basically the same creative team behind Thirteen, which was supposed to be good?

I mean, the guy who did the score is a long time collaborator with the Coen brothers and his work as as bad as anyone's.  When the bad guys show up there's a ridiculous guitar lick that made my friend pause the DVD and yell "GEE-TAWR!"

Woah, wait a second here. The guy that did the awesome music for Raising Arizona worked on that turkey? SMH
dog

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2009, 09:43:15 PM »
Quote
When you're kissing someone who's too much like you / It's like kissing on a mirror--Jenny Lewis

awesome, I dig mirrors.
:teehee
888

Van Cruncheon

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2009, 11:43:48 PM »
You're gay, too?

working on it -- besides my total physical and mental aversion to other dudes, i think i'd make an excellent homosexual

to quote my brother: "i'm 98% homo -- it's just the 2% where i stick my dick in women and not dudes that keeps me from a perfect score"
duc

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2009, 12:20:21 AM »
You're gay, too?

working on it -- besides my total physical and mental aversion to other dudes, i think i'd make an excellent homosexual

to quote my brother: "i'm 98% homo -- it's just the 2% where i stick my dick in women and not dudes that keeps me from a perfect score"

so he's fine with having dicks stuck in him then?

:teehee
itm

Van Cruncheon

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2009, 04:55:52 PM »
actually, he has also said it's not homo if you're NOT the one getting the dicks stuck in you, because it's all just a hole in the dark

the wilde homo is a thing of contradictions :-\

« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 05:07:39 PM by Professor Prole »
duc

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2009, 05:06:15 PM »
actually, he has also said it's not homo if you're NOT the one getting the dicks stuck in you, because it's all a hole in the dark

the wilde homo is a thing of contradictions :-\



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Van Cruncheon

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2009, 05:07:20 PM »
yes
duc

recursivelyenumerable

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Re: mary sue (attn: drohne)
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2009, 06:18:54 PM »
QED