Sarkozy: Burqas Are 'Not Welcome' In France

[brawndolicious]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/22/sarkozy-burqas-are-not-we_n_218920.html

France bans the theaters from having too many foreign films, the radio from having too much non-european music, and possibly soon also the women from choosing too wear too much non-western clothing.

If this does get made into a law, as unlikely as that is, I promise that I will go down the champs de elysee wearing one of those things.  With a camera too.

[The Fake Shemp]

Burqas are stupid and prohibit men from seeing beautiful women as God intended.  I definitely agree with Sarkozy on this.

[brawndolicious]

If we're talking about "as God intended" then we better ban circumcisions too.  It's just another barbaric custom of repressing men.

[The Fake Shemp]

The penis is never beautiful, cut or otherwise.  Your argument is stupid.

Burqas suck.  France and I win - flawless victory.

[brawndolicious]

Well if you can't see it over your tummy then you can't give an opinion and so I win by default.

[The Fake Shemp]

Oh, I can, buddy!

But can your girlfriend see it through her eye slits?

[Tauntaun]

Oh, I can, buddy!

But can your girlfriend see it through her eye slits?

I'm not your buddy, guy.

[The Fake Shemp]

I'm not your guy, buddy!

[Herr Mafflard]

This is just another instance of the short-man inferiority complex that Sarkozy has.

Man can't satisfy his trophy wife, so he's waving his tiny cock around like the lord baron, impressing on us his hardline politics.

[brawndolicious]

the radio from having too much non-european music

We have this in Canada and I have very little experience with my university's radio station but even I can tell you it's a total pain in the ass.

yeah, but France has a law saying that 40% of the movies have to french and an entire 60% of the radio music has to be that euro pop crap.  Basically, in 1991 Hollywood movies were more popular in France than French movies and French people have always had a massive stick up their ass over "cultural heritage" bs.

[The Fake Shemp]

To be fair, the French are better than us.

[Flannel Boy]

Armitage, there are only so many radio and television licenses available. Companies that do get those licenses should have to produce or broadcast some Canadian content. The cheaper and easier alternative is to simply purchase American content, then to produce anything original.

That being said, the amount of Canadian content radio stations have to broadcast is absurd. Forcing radio stations to broadcast at least 35% Canadian content leads to boring, repetitive playlists. I really don't like the Tragically Hip or Rush all that much. Canadians represent 0.5% of the world's population; I doubt we produce 35% of the best music.

[brawndolicious]

That's the problem, France might make some good music or movies but forcing a minimum requirement on something like entertainment is just ass backwards.

To be fair, the French are better than us.

Well they are one of the only countries to import natural muscone and civetone for their perfumes.  The process of getting those pheromones involves keeping the animal in a cage so small that it can't turn around.  That's because the cages have a special door at the back for the pheromones to be extracted from the anal scent glands with a special spoon every few days or so.

You see, rather than bathe with soap and water, they torture bambi's family and spray ass pheromones on themselves.

That's the France that Sarkowzy is trying to preserve.

[TEEEPO]

That's the problem, France might make some good music or movies but forcing a minimum requirement on something like entertainment is just ass backwards.

name one great french album/movie made in the past five years.

[Flannel Boy]

That's the problem, France might make some good music or movies but forcing a minimum requirement on something like entertainment is just ass backwards.

name one great french album/movie made in the past five years.

am nintenho wouldn't know whether there have been any great French films or albums released in the last five years unless he knew French and consumed a lot of French culture.

[castle007]

As a muslim, I don't agree with some people who say Burqas are obliqatory. The quran and hadiths never stated that women should cover every part of their bodies with the exception of their eyes. Instead, they state that women should dress modestly when they go out in public (loose clothing), and cover their bodies with the exception of the hands and their faces. And you can't force them to do that or threaten them. You can only advice them.

Some jurists say if a woman wants to wear a niqab (burqa) willingly, then no one should stop her. And what a lot of people don't know is that many women who wear the niqab wear it willingly. To be honest, I am not quite sure why they would choose to wear it. Maybe they feel that by doing this they are being more religious? Maybe she likes the idea of her husband being the only one who knows how she looks like (besides her family)?  I don't know

But I do know that some ignorant men are abusing the fact that niqab is permissable and forcing their wives to wear them. And the niqab is also becoming a safe haven for prostitutes. Many prostitutes in the gulf countries wear the niqab because it provides them with anonymity, and they can rest assured that no man will bother them. Some of these prostitutes wear the niqab with nothing under it. Maybe Jinfash can shed us some light about prostitution in the Gulf. 

As for the issue of women wearing niqab in western countries, I think that it is absurd that they might ban them.

While I do think that many westerners are uncomfortable talking to a woman wearing a niqab at first, I think after a while that level of uncomfort will gradually disappear because you will be judging the woman by her personality and not her looks.

But I have to say that Islam does not intend to make life hard for muslims. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "This religion of ours is easy and simple; whoever makes it hard will only be defeating themselves." So, if a woman knows that it will be extremely difficult for her to wear the niqab and go on with her daily life as normal, then she should take it off and wear a hijab. But if she is going to keep it then she should be prepared to take it off for identification purposes, medical purposes, etc..

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

This is just another instance of the short-man inferiority complex that Sarkozy has.

Man can't satisfy his trophy wife, so he's waving his tiny cock around like the lord baron, impressing on us his hardline politics.

The look I always see on his face when he's with her makes me believe otherwise.

[The Fake Shemp]

His wife is so banging.

I want rule France.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I bet Nicky lays the pipe to his wife every night.  She's probably a squirter too.

I'm just assuming this purely on his facial expressions when they're out in public.

[Flannel Boy]

As a muslim, I don't agree with some people who say Burqas are obliqatory. The quran and hadiths never stated that women should cover every part of their bodies with the exception of their eyes. Instead, they state that women should dress modestly when they go out in public (loose clothing), and cover their bodies with the exception of the hands and their faces.

Don't you think it's inequitable that neither book orders men to dress modestly and to cover their entire bodies except for their hands?

While I do think that many westerners are uncomfortable talking to a woman wearing a niqab at first, I think after a while that level of uncomfort will gradually disappear because you will be judging the woman by her personality and not her looks.

Some Westerners obviously feel discomfort simply because the niqab is different. But most of us also know that nobody would wear one without strong patriarchal pressure and coercion. The niqab screams of subservience.

[The Fake Shemp]

NO WOMEN DO IT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO AFTER BEING RAISED IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEY ARE TOLD TO!

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I absolutely despise the niqab.  The burqa isn't too terrible.

[Flannel Boy]

Did castle007 just call me a prostitute?

Prostitutes don't give it away for free.

[Mandark]

The whole concept of religiously-mandated female modesty is dumb and sexist, but I don't think a government ban is a great idea.

Then again, France is a horse of a different color (weaker free speech protections, a history of trying to create and protect "French" culture, a big north African immigrant population), so WTF do I know.

[castle007]

As a muslim, I don't agree with some people who say Burqas are obliqatory. The quran and hadiths never stated that women should cover every part of their bodies with the exception of their eyes. Instead, they state that women should dress modestly when they go out in public (loose clothing), and cover their bodies with the exception of the hands and their faces.

Don't you think it's inequitable that neither book orders men to dress modestly and to cover their entire bodies except for their hands?

While I do think that many westerners are uncomfortable talking to a woman wearing a niqab at first, I think after a while that level of uncomfort will gradually disappear because you will be judging the woman by her personality and not her looks.

Some Westerners obviously feel discomfort simply because the niqab is different. But most of us also know that nobody would wear one without strong patriarchal pressure and coercion. The niqab screams of subservience.

actually there is a dress code for men. Men are also supposed to cover their awra (area from waist to knees). They can't wear pure silk or gold, and they must not use their clothes to show off. they also have to cover their chest.

and how do you know that all of these women are being pressured? Have you talked them? Or are you just simply drawing conclusion based on what you hear? It is true that unfortunately a lot of these women are being pressured (which is against islam), many others wear it willingly. I know a woman who almost wore it because she thought that it would bring her closer to god, but her family begged her not to.

[castle007]

I absolutely despise the niqab.  The burqa isn't too terrible.

aren't they both the same thing??? 

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I absolutely despise the niqab.  The burqa isn't too terrible.

aren't they both the same thing??? 

Probably but you have to understand that I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about 99% of the time.

[castle007]

Did castle007 just call me a prostitute?

no, I was actually poking fun of what you said in the other thread (about sucking dicks  )

also, I was being serious about my question. You live in SA right?? Do you hear any stories about prostitution over there?

[Flannel Boy]

actually there is a dress code for men. Men are also supposed to cover their awra (area from waist to knees). They can't wear pure silk or gold, and they must not use their clothes to show off. they also have to cover their chest.

So it's not inequitable that men can show off their arms and most of their legs while women can't?  

and how do you know that all of these women are being pressured? Have you talked them? Or are you just simply drawing conclusion based on what you hear? It is true that unfortunately a lot of these women are being pressured (which is against islam), many others wear it willingly. I know a woman who almost wore it because she thought that it would bring her closer to god, but her family begged her not to.

They don't always have to be explicitly told; their religious milieu makes it known to them that they are to wear such and such clothing. It's not a free-choice, ever. How many non-religious women willingly cover themselves completely from head to toe on a hot day? "Fuck these shorts; I want to wear a long black niqab on this hot, sunny day!"

[Veidt]

Hey, you know what. Let's put veils and niqaabs on tourist women in  majority muslim countries.

I mean, they can choose what they want to wear, as long as they wear what those societies hold as  the norm!

[castle007]

also, I was being serious about my question. You live in SA right?? Do you hear any stories about prostitution over there?

Of course, I've always heard that prostitutes are the always making sure to cover up entirely to divert attention. So if you see a woman on the street wearing a niqab, socks, and gloves then she's most probably a prostitute.

I am not sure if that is sarcasm or not 

[Flannel Boy]

Hey, you know what. Let's put veils and niqaabs on tourist women in  majority muslim countries.

I mean, they can choose what they want to wear, as long as they wear what those societies hold as  the norm!

I'm not for the ban because it seems unworkable in a pluralist society, but your analogy is flawed. Banning one type of female clothing--clothing that is clearly sexist--is not the same as banning every single type of female clothing except for one humiliating form of clothing, which women must then wear. It's the difference between a country banning a single book and another country banning every single book except for one, and then forcing its inhabitants to read it.

[Flannel Boy]

Something obvious but might be worth pointing out: the minds of people here, men and women, are wired differently compared to other people in other parts of the world. What you call as sexist and demeaning they call protective and dignifying. You'll call their mentality backwards and oppressed while they think yours is too liberal and lacks discipline. In other words, while you judge them based on the values of your environment they do the same too, and at the end of the day everyone think they're right and other is wrong, so that's why oftentimes what you is a service to them gets perceived as the exact opposite ("I'm doing this to help you", "Who asked for your help, it's YOU who needs to be changed")...

I can't pretend to be culturally neutral, but can't these competing claims be examined?

Sexism is by definition the unequal treatment of individuals based on their sex. Women are being discriminated by being subjugated to religious dress codes that are not applied equally to men. This really can't be argued. The only thing left is a half-hearted communitarian defense of this sexist treatment.

Are women being protected by this niqab? Maybe from UV rays. But women are still abused is Middle Eastern countries. The very premise behind this idea is that women who dress "provocatively" cause their own suffering. Cultures should stop pushing this nonsense and instead tell its males to have some self-control. Telling potential rapist to control themselves seems to be more fair than telling women to completely cover themselves.

Dignified? There's nothing dignified about having to cover your face and body because your religion--a religion created and enforced by men--orders you to. Would you feel dignified if you had to hide your face in public?

[ToxicAdam]

Slippery slope, people! They will ban thongs next!

[tiesto]

the radio from having too much non-european music

We have this in Canada and I have very little experience with my university's radio station but even I can tell you it's a total pain in the ass.

Hmmm, I would probably just play a bunch of deadmau5, Luke Fair, and Richie Hawtin if I were in that position.

[Bildi]

Clothes in general should not be welcome when it comes to women (only the sexy ones though).

But men should still be required to wear pants.  I don't want everyone to see my little penis.

[brawndolicious]

As a muslim, I don't agree with some people who say Burqas are obliqatory. The quran and hadiths never stated that women should cover every part of their bodies with the exception of their eyes. Instead, they state that women should dress modestly when they go out in public (loose clothing), and cover their bodies with the exception of the hands and their faces.

Don't you think it's inequitable that neither book orders men to dress modestly and to cover their entire bodies except for their hands?

If I remember correctly, the Koran only requires that women be covered from their cleavage to their knees.  I know that some Muslims are only strict followers of the Koran and not of the Hadiths.

The Hadiths (which iirc are the ONLY ones that say that women must cover their hair) are second hand sources (similar to how the Bible was written 300 years after Christ) and so there's A LOT of debate over which ones are true and which ones aren't.  Muslim scholars (Marjehs) suggest their own interpretations over which Hadiths to believe and a lot of people choose to stick with a specific scholar's advice rather than decide for themselves which Hadiths are most likely required.  That always seemed really dumb to me but I guess a lot of religious people would be intimidated by the idea of trying to figure out rules God has.

With young Muslims, I've had some pretty heated arguments with my stubborn Muslim male friends where they say that seeing pretty hair will excite men and make them more likely to commit a sin.  These guys of course live in California so the majority of the women they see are rape-traps.

[castle007]

Something obvious but might be worth pointing out: the minds of people here, men and women, are wired differently compared to other people in other parts of the world. What you call as sexist and demeaning they call protective and dignifying. You'll call their mentality backwards and oppressed while they think yours is too liberal and lacks discipline. In other words, while you judge them based on the values of your environment they do the same too, and at the end of the day everyone think they're right and other is wrong, so that's why oftentimes what you is a service to them gets perceived as the exact opposite ("I'm doing this to help you", "Who asked for your help, it's YOU who needs to be changed")...

I can't pretend to be culturally neutral, but can't these competing claims be examined?

Sexism is by definition the unequal treatment of individuals based on their sex. Women are being discriminated by being subjugated to religious dress codes that are not applied equally to men. This really can't be argued. The only thing left is a half-hearted communitarian defense of this sexist treatment.

Are women being protected by this niqab? Maybe from UV rays. But women are still abused is Middle Eastern countries. The very premise behind this idea is that women who dress "provocatively" cause their own suffering. Cultures should stop pushing this nonsense and instead tell its males to have some self-control. Telling potential rapist to control themselves seems to be more fair than telling women to completely cover themselves.

Dignified? There's nothing dignified about having to cover your face and body because your religion--a religion created and enforced by men--orders you to. Would you feel dignified if you had to hide your face in public?

you are still not getting it!!! Like Jinfah said, it is all about perspective. When muslims look at western society, they see a society that has become too liberal and lacking morals to the point where right has become wrong and wrong has become right. So, now it is not acceptable for women to cover up themselves? They all have to live by western standards, wear miniskirts, thongs and tank tops? Is that your view of how a woman should be liberated?

Do you honestly think that all these women who wear hijabs and niqabs are doing it because they are being forced to? Some of them do because of their ignorant families, but many of them choose to do it because they view it as a way to show their devotion to God and they view it as dignifying. You said that there is nothing dignifying about it because a made up religion told them to do it. This is according to you, a non muslim. Well guess what?? These women are muslim and they obviously don't think their religion is made up, so who are you to say that they are wong and you are right?

When these muslim women look at western women they feel sorry for them because the western society places so much pressure on women to look "hot" and "sexy" and nothing but eye candy. they don't see anything dignifying about wearing miniskirts, bikinis, getting their legs waxed every other week, spending hours putting on makeup and fixing their hair so that they can get a date, or even a one night stand. These muslim women chose to wear hijab/niqab because they feel that islam liberates women from all these pressures of having to always look good in order to be a trophy wife or some guy's fantasy.

You are talking about the lack of dignity in muslim women, please tell me what is dignifying about having a guy pressuring a girl to have sex at 14? Getting a baby at 16? Being bombarded with commercials 24/7 about how you don't look good enough for guys. What is so dignifying about being in the porn industry? You are talking about unequal treatment between sexes, yet you are ignoring the fact that women in western society are unfortunately currently being treated as nothing but sex objects. So please, before you talk about women in other cultures and criticizing the way they live and trying to "liberate" them, look at the way your own culture treats women and fix your own problems first.

[Mandark]

I've got a feeling that Malek's 2/3rds of the way through a rigorous fisking of that last post so instead of a full response I'll just write a short prediction:

castle007 will continue to cherry-pick aspects of "western society" (bikinis! porn! rutting teenage girls!) to make it look bad while narrowly defining what is "real Islam" so that widely observed misogynistic practices get filed under B for Bad Apples.

[Flannel Boy]

You're not Loki. Stop writing essays.

you are still not getting it!!! Like Jinfah said, it is all about perspective. When muslims look at western society, they see a society that has become too liberal and lacking morals to the point where right has become wrong and wrong has become right. So, now it is not acceptable for women to cover up themselves? They all have to live by western standards, wear miniskirts, thongs and tank tops? Is that your view of how a woman should be liberated?

I actually don't think there's anything moral about telling a woman what to wear. And there's nothing immoral about the human form.

You are setting up a false dilemma where the only two options are burkas or miniskirts. Those are not the only two options, and they’re not options that men should dictate through the use of archaic religious dress codes.   

Do you honestly think that all these women who wear hijabs and niqabs are doing it because they are being forced to? Some of them do because of their ignorant families, but many of them choose to do it because they view it as a way to show their devotion to God and they view it as dignifying. You said that there is nothing dignifying about it because a made up religion told them to do it. This is according to you, a non muslim. Well guess what?? These women are muslim and they obviously don't think their religion is made up, so who are you to say that they are wong and you are right?

As I said earlier, there often doesn't even have to be outright force. If it's what's expected by a woman's religion, friends, parents, and society, how much choice does she have?

Are you saying that a non-religious person cannot examine the claims of a religion? Or examine its ethics which treat women unequally?

When these muslim women look at western women they feel sorry for them because the western society places so much pressure on women to look "hot" and "sexy" and nothing but eye candy.

Nothing but eye-candy? This is a straw man of Western society. Yes women are often judged by their looks (so I guess the solution is to cover them from head to toe), but society is becoming less sexist. The majority of college students, for example are female, and probably half my law class is female. Are Islamic countries better? I mean, by your logic they should have just as many women in colleges and universities. They're not treated like eye-candy? So they must be judged on their character and intellect.  

they don't see anything dignifying about wearing miniskirts, bikinis, getting their legs waxed every other week, spending hours putting on makeup and fixing their hair so that they can get a date, or even a one night stand. These muslim women chose to wear hijab/niqab because they feel that islam liberates women from all these pressures of having to always look good in order to be a trophy wife or some guy's fantasy.

Again, that's a choice in the West. Not all women spend a lot of time grooming or working out.

But anyway, I spend too much time studying for law school (okay let's pretend I do), going to school (let's pretend I do) attending classes (let's pretend I do), studying in the library (again, let's pretend I do). Wouldn't it be liberating if I was barred from law school. Think of all the time I'd save.

If your claims that burkas and niqabs were freeing were was true, then wouldn't non-religious Western women start wearing them? "Fuck it's so awesome and freeing."

You are talking about the lack of dignity in muslim women, please tell me what is dignifying about having a guy pressuring a girl to have sex at 14?

Are we talking about Muhammad?

What is so dignifying about being in the porn industry?

Yes, parents, schools, our social institutions really pressure their daughters to go into the porn industry

You are talking about unequal treatment between sexes, yet you are ignoring the fact that women in western society are unfortunately currently being treated as nothing but sex objects.

This is false.

So please, before you talk about women in other cultures and criticizing the way they live and trying to "liberate" them, look at the way your own culture treats women and fix your own problems first.

No country is free of sexism; there are varying levels of sexism within every culture and nation. But I don't see how the sexism within my own society prevents me from commenting on an obviously sexist religious dress code.

[castle007]

I've got a feeling that Malek's 2/3rds of the way through a rigorous fisking of that last post so instead of a full response I'll just write a short prediction:

castle007 will continue to cherry-pick aspects of "western society" (bikinis! porn! rutting teenage girls!) to make it look bad while narrowly defining what is "real Islam" so that widely observed misogynistic practices get filed under B for Bad Apples.

hahahaha?? Cherry picking??  

are you seriously saying these aren't problems that western societies face?? Teenage sex and pregnancies aren't a problem? what about the consequences of these pregnancies? Abortion, single teenage parents almost guaranteed NOT to go to college... these aren't problems??

Ah, and yes, the porn industry, it is a fountain eruption full of liberty!!! It is the worst possible way to dehumanize women!!

And please don't get me started on your leaders, who obviously respect women so much that they go and cheat on their wives with their secretaries and prostitutes!! And then they dare and point their fingers about other societies and bash their treatment of women. hah


and to Malek: you are still acting as if the only reason women wear hijab and burqas is because of peer pressure and men forcing them to. For some reason you refuse to believe that a woman is willing to wear hijab/niqab herself by choice. Just look at all the women converts to Islam, no one certainly around them forced to do that. but they are wearing hijab and niqab anyways!! OH NO, they must be being brainwashed by these manmade texts!!! You also fail to realize that no one can force a woman to wear a hijab or a burqa. You have to understand that no country on the face of the earth is actually following islamic law!! Saudi Arabia's law is more of a Wahabi law than anything else, and the rest of the islamic countries have their own constitutions that borrow some aspects of islamic law.


And you can't be serious in trying to compare Prophet's mohammad's marriage to Aisha to a guy who knocks up a 14 year old girl and then leaves her. And if you are serious, then maybe you should do a little research about Mohammad's relationship with Aisha.

[Flannel Boy]

Fuck it!

[castle007]

single teenage parents almost guaranteed to go to college

sending teens to college 

oops 

fixed now. 

[Bildi]

I dunno, I think the French can do what they want, it's their country.  Tough shit, it's the way the world works.

I'd expect no different treatment if I move to into someone else's country.

[Flannel Boy]

 

This is a mildly tangential question: why do people cry for all the oppressed women in porn and not for all the oppressed males in porn?

It's certainly not the first profession I'd hope my children would enter, but can't we admit that some people actually choose to enter the profession! Some people are exhibitionists who really enjoy sex and think it would be a great idea to make money doing what they love in front of others.

[brawndolicious]

My cousin said that they broadcast porn on the satellite late at night and actually this one time, a prostitute entered my uncle's car when he honked his horn in front of my grandmother's house.  Also, a lot of Iranian guys and girls are basically polygamists so this bullshit about ME countries having some sort of sexual firewall is...BULLSHIT.

It might be more underground, but it's definitely there and you'd be odd if you waited until marriage to have sex or were offended by seeing a girl's hair.  I don't think these "western values" are anything new either.

Maybe the clergy  in ME countries spout bullshit about there being so much more corruption or sin in the west but NOBODY in the middle east actually believes it and they're the target audience.

[Purple Filth]

Quote from: castle007 on Today at 01:57:16 AM
You are talking about the lack of dignity in muslim women, please tell me what is dignifying about having a guy pressuring a girl to have sex at 14?

Are we talking about Muhammad?

can't let this sick burn go unnoticed.

 

[Veidt]

Hey, you know what. Let's put veils and niqaabs on tourist women in  majority muslim countries.

I mean, they can choose what they want to wear, as long as they wear what those societies hold as  the norm!

I'm not for the ban because it seems unworkable in a pluralist society, but your analogy is flawed. Banning one type of female clothing--clothing that is clearly sexist--is not the same as banning every single type of female clothing except for one humiliating form of clothing, which women must then wear. It's the difference between a country banning a single book and another country banning every single book except for one, and then forcing its inhabitants to read it.

-clothing that is clearly sexist--is not the same as banning every single type of female clothing except for one humiliating form of clothing, which women must then wear.

Firstly, these women wear that clothing out of their own freedom of choice, no one can force them to wear it. It isn't even an obligation in religious terms. Would you ban  nuns from wearing their garments when they are in the public?...huh
Secondly, in the rest of the world, these kind of veiling clothing is not sexist. It is indeed the opposite.
Here, women are encouraged to wear as much revealing clothing, and other elements to make them stand out, as possible. It's a cultural thing, it's acceptable.  There, it's the opposite.

There, women are encouraged to wear much

[Veidt]

ugh. ignore my last line. it doesn't make sense because I forgot to delete it. I hate this edit-less state I'm in.

[Flannel Boy]

See this is the biggest clash between both cultures' definition of equality. The Islamic approach is that we've been created differently both anatomically and physiologically, so trying to apply the Westerner's version of "equality" is absurd.

The belief that unequal things shouldn't be treated equally has a Western heritage, dating back to Aristotle right up to our current affirmative action programs and disability legislation. But the problem is that there are no relevant anatomical differences that justify the different, discriminating gender dress codes. According to Castle's Islamic interpretation, men are allowed to expose their entire arms and most of their legs in public, but women are not. According to other interpretations, women are not even allowed to expose their faces in public. What physical differences justify this, exactly?

Both sexes have different freedoms, limitations, and roles both in the structure of the family and society that balances each other, but all of those differences are deemed "sexist" and "discriminating" when put up against, again, the Western definition.

These different "freedoms" and roles lead to the subjugation of women to men. And all of these "freedoms" and roles assigned to each sex are arbitrary. Is there a particular reason why women have to cook and clean and not men? Are there some sort of anatomical reasons preventing men from stirring a pot or sweeping the floor as well as women?

If I'm not mistaken, the explanation is that, while self-control must be applied (there are strict rules for that), the male should always be attracted to the female more so than opposite (a natural physiological difference according to Islam). The whole idea of protecting the women, is to preserve that natural instinct while preventing any harm, in other words avoiding the desensitization of that instinct (which they think has happened to a great degree elsewhere).

This is simply a rationalization justifying both male lust and a male desire to keep women chaste and pure.

To put it simply in the Islamic terms: A woman is protecting herself from the eyes of the ill-hearted men, as it's easier to protect oneself than hope and trust that other men will uphold the rules enforced on them.

The latter hope is sabotaged by the cultural idea that women, by the way they dress, cause men to lose self-control.

And this is all clearly a phony rationalization. If this dress code is enforced to prevent rape, then why is it enforced in extremely public settings where there is no actual risk of rape?

"A religion created and enforced by men" Try convincing everyone with that first and then they'll follow your line of reasoning.

Should I invoke God? "I have no need of that hypothesis." 

[Flannel Boy]

Incoming Malek epic post!

you and Mandark need to stop doing this. Do you have cameras in my living room?

I'm leaving to buy groceries.

[Van Cruncheon]

the IDEA is that a woman should be able to choose what to wear, be it burqa or bikini or something in-between, and it should NOT be based on what a majority of men dictate -- be it through community legislation or simple social pressures -- in order to compensate for their own moral weaknesses.

and as malek said, if you're gonna ask women to follow one set of restrictions, it's really only fair to ask men to follow them as well.

[castle007]

^^^
Good points. Islamic Sharia tries very hard to prevent pproblems from occuring. They don't wait for problems to start and then try to fix them. This is the best way to keep society functioning properly. Unfortunatley, some authorities have abused Sharia and are using it to trying to dominate women.


And to Malek, you keep saying that the dress codes are sexists because they don't apply to men. Have you ever seen gulf clothing for men?? It is a long Thobe(dishdasha) that covers everything except the hands, and the head. almost everyone wears one.

[Flannel Boy]

On my way home, I walked past six young women in short-shorts and tank tops. If it wasn't for the groceries I was holding, I wouldn't have been able to control my urges.

[Flannel Boy]

great it prevents problems. Let's cut off every male's pecker, than they won't be able to rape anyone. How about that for prevention.

You're being a disingenuous motherfucker. The thawb is regional clothing that covers more of the body than is required according to your interpretation of Islam.

[castle007]

On my way home, I walked past six young women in short-shorts and tank tops. If it wasn't for the groceries I was holding, I wouldn't have been able to control my urges.

I bet if someone else was walking with other guys and looking at the same girls, the only thing they would be talking about is which of the girls they want to test drive in their beds. How is it dignifying for these women, to only be included in conversations about how great they would be in bed?

And don't tell me that I am wrong. I have been around long enough to know that me are pretty much pigs.  

[Flannel Boy]

They believe that the physiological difference is relevant.

And? What is this justification?

A woman exposing her arm draws more attention in their opinion than a man's.

Her bare arm probably would draw more attention because women are prohibited from showing their bare arms and men aren't. But how does this justify the existence of the different standards?

This is where you went wrong again. "cooking", "cleaning"? do you honestly think that's what I was referring to? Of course not, and there's nothing forcing either of them to do and not do those chores. Don't mix customs and traditions with religion.

(Anecdotal observation: My married sisters have maids and drivers, they're practically living like princesses, why they have their husbands wrapped around their fingers.)

I don't know how relevant the situation of rich Saudi women is to the plight of Muslim women in general. But your sisters' roles are pretty much reduced to spitting out babies while barred from most working environments. No stereotypical gender roles enforced there!

[OptimoPeach]

the only thing they would be talking about is which of the girls they want to test drive in their beds.

I'm not seeing the problem here

[Flannel Boy]

I bet if someone else was walking with other guys and looking at the same girls, the only thing they would be talking about is which of the girls they want to test drive in their beds. How is it dignifying for these women, to only be included in conversations about how great they would be in bed?

And don't tell me that I am wrong. I have been around long enough to know that me are pretty much pigs.  

Right. And if six hot guys dressed in next to nothing walked past a small group of women, I bet the women would talk about which guy they'd like to fuck.


AND?!?!?!?!

[castle007]

great it prevents problems. Let's cut off every male's pecker, than they won't be able to rape anyone. How about that for prevention.

You're being a disingenuous motherfucker. The thawb is regional clothing that covers more of the body than is required according to your interpretation of Islam.

holy crap, why so serious??  

it is not a regional clothing. It is worn by many muslim men all over the world, especially when they go to mosques. I mentioned that it is a gulf clothing , because it originated from that area, but it is definitely not exclusive to them. They wear it because it is very loose and comfortable and it satisfies the islamic requirements. Why are you being so angry?