So... Halloween 2

[mojovonio]

Saw it on Sunday, after much deliberation. God did I regret it. Its just very very apparent that Rob Zombie just doesn't get it. As an overall, on how to make a competent movie, he just doesn't get it. Its close to being one of the worst movies I have ever seen, and I've seen some fucking terrible moves.

Anyone else see it?

[fistfulofmetal]

he made The Devil's Rejects

and thats a very competent movie.

[The Fake Shemp]

The Devil's Rejects is boring.

Solo saw it and didn't know what to make of it, apparently. I've got no interest in seeing Rob Zombie remake some more stuff (he's eying The Blob next) with his white trash screen writing skills and B-List genre actors.

[Akala]

Devil's Rejects sucked hard.

I always thought the Halloween movies were the most boring of the 'big' horror franchises growing up, so I never really got behind his reboot. I was vaguely interested in the first one, but haven't gotten around to it. I want to watch it before ever seeing the second, but it will probably be years.

Is the first one worth seeing?

[The Fake Shemp]

Why would I love it? I routinely slag on Zombie, and put Carpenter (and his original) on a pedestal. The original Halloween is one of my favorite films of all-time.

[Solo]

It is odd how the best sequence in the movie is a 10-15 minute DREAM SEQUENCE

Anyways, bash 1000 Corpses, H1 and H2 all you like, but Devil's Rejects is sacred to me. I dont know why Zombie doesnt keep making that kind of thing. Its the one place his hillbilly white trash world works.

[The Fake Shemp]

I really don't think it's too difficult to enjoy Halloween nowadays, regardless of its context in history. The original is just great filmmaking. Carpenter was so great at building up tension, building this believable community, and then making you fear that this murdering psychopath was in every shadow and every corner.

It still holds up really well. The score is iconic, and imagery is haunting.

That said, this generation will go see trash like Rob Zombie's Halloween (and its sequel), endless Saw sequels, Hostel, etc. Triumph asked me recently to name good horror films post-'80s, and the list is really small - smaller if you don't include foreign films.

I think a lot of subtlety is lost on today's generation. The original is pretty non-violent as far as "slasher" flicks go, so I don't think it holds the interest of those with short attention spans.

[The Fake Shemp]

It is odd how the best sequence in the movie is a 10-15 minute DREAM SEQUENCE

Anyways, bash 1000 Corpses, H1 and H2 all you like, but Devil's Rejects is sacred to me. I dont know why Zombie doesnt keep making that kind of thing. Its the one place his hillbilly white trash world works.

I liked it the first time I saw it, when it was called every seventies horror film ever.

Zombie wants to be horror's Tarantino, but lacks even competent screen writing skills and has absolutely no understanding of how to direct actors. That's the difference between a guy who is a student of film and a guy who is just a fan of film.

[Solo]

Sure, TDR is a mashup of a lot of different 70's horror/road movies, but who cares? Its still incredible its own right, unlike 1000 Corpses which relied far too much on being a TCM retelling. TDR did what QT does at his best, which is paying homage while still being its own beast.

Also, Im not sure what you meant by the student vs. fan stuff, since QT and Zombie both fall into the latter category.

[The Fake Shemp]

I just watched The Sentinel last weekend with Disposable White Guy. It was so bizarre (cake orgy!), but in a lovable way. I've seen the others, and place Martin in high regard.

Zombie is not a student of anything, Solo. He's a fan. The Devil's Rejects is far from its own beast, because if anything, it borrows liberally from films left and right (which you admit). I won't call it awful, and it's probably his most competent film, but it's boring and unoriginal.

Tarantino can actually direct his actors and write his way out of a paper bag. He'll give lectures on classic films, and studies the intricacies of cinema. He knows when to listen to feedback and when to collaborate.

Zombie, by all accounts, is a total egomaniac. Why does he insist on writing screenplays he directs, when everyone says it's usually the weakest aspect of any of his films? He recycles casts that nobody likes, and often casts role because "that one guy was awesome in that one movie" he liked.

If Tarantino is going to work with an actor from material he enjoys, he does it because it fits his screenplay and he knows he can get a great performance out of them. Not just because they were in that one movie he enjoyed while growing up.

That's because he's a student and Zombie is a fan.

[Akala]

to clarify, the original Halloween was great. everything after was total shit. I'd rather watch the Leprechaun movies.

[Great Rumbler]

Triumph asked me recently to name good horror films post-'80s, and the list is really small - smaller if you don't include foreign films.

Just talking American films:

-Bubba Ho-tep
-Cube [okay, it's actually Canadian]
-Drag Me To Hell
-In the Mouth of Madness [best post-80's Carpenter movie]
-Silent Hill [despite its flaws]
-The Mist
-The Ring [one of the only remakes done right]
-Dagon [the second half kind of falls apart though]
-Pitch Black [derivative, but fun]
-The Midnight Meat Train
-1408
-Scream
-Misery

For a 19-year period. :/

The list MAYBE doubles if you add in Europe, Mexico, and Asia.

[The Fake Shemp]

Eh, I enjoy Halloween II and have kind of a soft spot for Halloween III. Pretty much everything after that is pretty awful. Including Halloween 6, starring Paul Rudd!

I agree. I think its hard for people without a real appreciation of film to see Tarantino's genius, but to create the copious amounts of tension from a simple verbal exchange, like the one in Inglorious Bastards' first scene, takes a shit load of talent.

Rob zombie is an artist, he's got a great sense of the visual, but he just really seems to be biting off more than he can chew with his movies.

I think Zombie is a talented guy, but not behind the keyboard and really needs to let up on some of his quirks (a problem that plagues Tarantino). I'm not sure he's really cut out to be a director, though.

[The Fake Shemp]

Haha, The Blob remake is going to be so horrible.

"My intention is not to have a big red blobby thing -- that's the first thing I want to change," Zombie said. "That gigantic Jello-looking thing might have been scary to audiences in the 1950s, but people would laugh now."

... So, since there will be no blob-like substance devouring townsfolk, Zombie will cast an obese, white trash trucker who grows to gargantuan size and whose body mass violently absorbs people.

How close do you think I'll be?

[The Fake Shemp]

You guys are a lot more lenient than myself, as I would honestly only include maybe just four of the films in both of your lists - combined.

[Great Rumbler]

You guys are a lot more lenient than myself, as I would honestly only include maybe just four of the films in both of your lists - combined.

We can't all be Hollywood intellectuals like you, Willco.  :'(

Anyway, the fact that I had to pull up "fun, but derivative" horror movies kind of says a lot about what's been released in the past 19 years. The list would be a lot better if I added in foreign movies, of which there are some genuinely good horror movies.

[Great Rumbler]

I'd love to see a ghost movie done well. The only decent one I have only seen ever, is The Changeling.

My rule of thumb, if you see the ghost, the movie fails.

Ghost Busters 

[Herr Mafflard]

I'd love to see a ghost movie done well. The only decent one I have only seen ever, is The Changeling.

My rule of thumb, if you see the ghost, the movie fails.

Poltergeist?

[Akala]

Triumph asked me recently to name good horror films post-'80s, and the list is really small - smaller if you don't include foreign films.

Just talking American films:

-Bubba Ho-tep
-Cube
-Drag Me To Hell
-In the Mouth of Madness [best post-80's Carpenter movie]
- Silent Hill [despite its flaws] would really love a director's cut
-The Mist
-The Ring [one of the only remakes done right]
-Dagon [the second half kind of falls apart though]
-Pitch Black [derivative, but fun]
-The Midnight Meat Train
-1408

For a 19-year period. :/

The list MAYBE doubles if you add in Europe, Mexico, and Asia.

Whoops, I read that as pre-80's.

Post 80's, I wouldn't use any of those mentioned above, other than In the Mouth of Madness.

My list would be more like

- [REC]
- 28 Days Later
- The Addiction
- Inside
-Candyman

Can't think of anything else right now.

also, The Changeling

I remember seeing The Frighteners with zero knowledge of it going in (late night HBO/WE) and thought it was great. Pre LOTR it was really underappreciated.

I think I have a weird taste when it comes to horror. I think I consider The Vanishing (original onry) to be the scariest movie I've ever seen.

[The Fake Shemp]

I'm not trying to be an elitist, but some of those films barely qualify as horror (Cube is science fiction, dudes) and are not that great. There's a difference between guilty pleasures (which, unfortunately, most of horror is) and legitimately good films.

There are indeed a handful of great B-Movies, like Drag Me to Hell, The Frighteners, The Mist, etc. All films I have enjoyed, none of them I'd call really good horror films. Genre fans are also predisposed to like this type of stuff, and I think that you really need see what appeals outside our niche to determine quality.

I mean - heck! - if I made a list of modern stuff I love to watch it'd probably include stuff like the aforementioned titles and Cemetary Man, From Dusk 'Till Dawn, Frailty, New Nightmare, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Session 9, Audition, Let the Right One In, High Tension, Dead Alive, Slither, Arachnophobia, Needful Things, Stir of Echoes, Event Horizon, Shaun of the Dead, Funny Games and probably a bunch I can't name.

Can I sneak Army of Darkness in?

Now, remove the foreign films and limit it to the really, really great stuff (that people will reference decades from now) - how many of those films survive that criteria?

I think you have to include stuff like Scream (regardless if its a satire) and The Ring as true representation of horror in the past two decades. It's been a pretty wretched time for horror.

Saw pretty much set the tone for this decade, which I felt has seen the shift of true horror leave American shores to the Pacific and Spain (Shiver was better than half the garbage released stateside).

'tis a shame.

Also, I still contend that The Ring is an American remake of a Japanese film adapted from a book that ripped off an American film (The Changeling).

[Herr Mafflard]

I'd love to see a ghost movie done well. The only decent one I have only seen ever, is The Changeling.

My rule of thumb, if you see the ghost, the movie fails.

Poltergeist?

Nah, Poltergeist was pretty terrible.

well shit, I thought it was pretty good

then again, I'm pretty terrible with horror films - I haven't seen that many

[Solo]

Zombie is not a student of anything, Solo. He's a fan. The Devil's Rejects is far from its own beast, because if anything, it borrows liberally from films left and right (which you admit). I won't call it awful, and it's probably his most competent film, but it's boring and unoriginal.

Tarantino can actually direct his actors and write his way out of a paper bag. He'll give lectures on classic films, and studies the intricacies of cinema. He knows when to listen to feedback and when to collaborate.

Er, I said Zombie isnt a "student" of film. I wont contend your "boring and unoriginal" comments, because that is subjective. But I do find it puzzling that you can hate on TDR so much and love THHE 2006 (which I also love), when both are wholly unoriginal, yet incredibly well made movies.

As for the directing/casting stuff, well, Zombie shoots himself in the foot with his casting, and you can only do so much with certain people. To say he cant direct actors is a bit much when he isnt really working with passable actors. Also, QT is coming from a (lol) acting background, so of course he understands actors.

[The Fake Shemp]

My answer to that is pretty simple, and be can deduced from my first post:

The Devil's Rejects is boring.

Cardinal sin when it comes to horror films. You can be awful, you can be campy, but you can never be boring. Aja has demonstrated more than once that he has an understanding of the genre and can make a fun film. He also made a horribly dull one (Mirrors). Let's hope he gets back on track with his Piranha film.

First, Zombie can get better actors. I'm involved in a production right now, and we've got a relatively unknown actor (who has done some reoccurring character work) that is pretty good at his job. There are ton of decent actors in Hollywood.

But he even manages to make McDowell, who is a good actor, chew scenery like it's an Olive Garden buffet in not one, but two films!

[The Fake Shemp]

Let's change the topic, because Rob Zombie is a hack and not worthy of discussion.

Eric P and I are having an Internet debate. I claim that Se7en, Silence of the Lambs and American Psycho are not horror films, but rather thrillers or mystery films (thus belonging in either thriller or suspense categories).

It seems that modern day top horror lists include those films to pad their Top 20 or whatever.

Are they horror films or not?

[Solo]

Thats the subjective part though - that its boring. Im never bored with TDR. I find the pacing is quite good, and it never outstays its welcome. And I love the final scene.

[Human Snorenado]

You guys are a lot more lenient than myself, as I would honestly only include maybe just four of the films in both of your lists - combined.

I'm even more a sneering elitist- the only movies that can even be partially classified as horror that have worked for me post original Friday 13th and Nightmare (I'm talking the first in each series) are 28 Days Later and Shaun of the Dead, largely because Danny Boyle is not some wankerish horror fanthing that feels he must pay homage to decades of dumb memes n' tropes.  Shaun is good because it's funny.

One of the biggest problems I have with the horror genre is that the people who like it are quite possibly the least critical fanbase of any sort in existence.  They will keep paying money to see horrible, horrible film making.  Case in point- when 28 Weeks Later came out I got to see a sneak preview a couple of days early in Atlanta.  My two friends and I were just disgusted with it- horrible, horrible movie that crapped all over the goodwill built by the first.  We saw a bunch of people we *sort of* knew in the lobby afterwards and stuck around for a couple of minutes to chat it up.  These fucking people are from some sort of bizarro dimension where the sequel was somehow better than the first... DOUBLE YOU TEE EFF.  We left to go drinking with people who weren't dumb after about 3 minutes of that bullshit in the lobby.

[The Fake Shemp]

I think you just like zombie films.

[Human Snorenado]

Thats the subjective part though - that its boring. Im never bored with TDK. I find the pacing is quite good, and it never outstays its welcome. And I love the final scene.

OH MY GAWD LOOK AT THAT FREUDIAN SLIP

[Solo]

 

Good thing this isnt GAF

[The Fake Shemp]

I think you're probably right about the lack of critical analysis from the fan base. That said, even the derivative stuff is prone to spurts of creativity, and it's really the only genre that lets it all hang loose anymore, so it's easier to enjoy on a visceral level.

There are a ton of B-Movies that I really, really enjoy and would gladly watch over stuff like Gone with the Wind on any given day, but you'll never hear me claim that Slither is the epitome of filmmaking.

The ability to differentiate (or lack thereof), between legitimately great horror films and entertaining kitsch, is a problem for genre fans. That, I would agree with.

[Human Snorenado]

My problem with the fans is that a whole lot of them pretty much ONLY watch that crap.  It's cool if you're watching it as PART of your viewing schedule or whatever, and acknowledging that a lot of it is a guilty pleasure, but these fuckers treat it like an ART FORM or whatever when, in fact, it's crap.

And Federwang, I kind of have to disagree with you on horror being the only genre where directors will let it all hang out these days.  There are lots of directors who will nut up when push comes to shove, and they don't work exclusively in the horror genre.  Tarantino and Edgar Wright immediately come to mind; yes both use elements of horror/exploitation in their flicks, but that's not the entirety of their toolbox if you get what I'm saying.

[The Fake Shemp]

I would disagree to calling all such material objectively garbage, because that denies that there is a degree of creativity and skill involved. There usually is. I'll use your favorite punching bag of mine, Sam Raimi, in saying that he did not go out and make Drag Me to Hell to win Oscars. It's definitely a campy, hokey B-Movie intended to be a campy, hokey B-Movie.

Will filmmakers hold it in reverence decades from now? Probably not.

But it was entertaining, and its lack of greatness doesn't not necessarily mean its garbage.

I would agree that there are certain filmmakers that are capable of pushing the envelop, but I find it funny that one of the directors you mentioned is mostly known for his feature directorial debut - that happened to be a horror film.

The fact is that they are exceptions to the rule, and in no other genre will you get more freedom than horror. Its base is willing to take the bizarre and abstract, whereas most other genres apply to specific demographics.

Horror is also one of the few genres that is cheap to produce content for, and the more money a production requires, the less freedom it has.

[Great Rumbler]

Let's change the topic, because Rob Zombie is a hack and not worthy of discussion.

Eric P and I are having an Internet debate. I claim that Se7en, Silence of the Lambs and American Psycho are not horror films, but rather thrillers or mystery films (thus belonging in either thriller or suspense categories).

It seems that modern day top horror lists include those films to pad their Top 20 or whatever.

Are they horror films or not?

I wouldn't call those horror movies, you're right in calling them suspense/thrillers.

And I'd argue that Cube is as much a horror movie as stuff like Saw, even down to a similar set up [people trapped in a bizarre setting filled with devious traps]. It definitely has a scifi bent, though.

[The Fake Shemp]

Not that I know.

Are you talking about the original Paranormal Activity, which apparently is locked away in a vault somewhere, or the remake of it?

I know Trick'r'Treat will be at Fantastic Fest. It's been in production forever, and I can see that as a good sign.

[Solo]

Trick R Treat is supposedy quite awesome from what Ive heard, regardless of the 2 year delay. Apparently its not a "we have a stinker on our hands and have no where to dump it" scenario as it is studio BS. Allegedly.

[The Fake Shemp]

WE WILL SEE.

[Solo]

ALLEGEDLY

[The Fake Shemp]

Hey, I think you know me well enough that I'm willing to give anything a fair shake.

[Human Snorenado]

...which puts it solidly in line with the original Boondock Saints. 

[The Fake Shemp]

Omg at the subtitle. All Saint's Day.

It sounds like a fanfic!

[Loki]

The movie didn't have enough "cool" scenes for my liking. The only one I can recall is when

spoiler (click to show/hide)

the hicks severely beat him with a bat and tire iron and leave him for dead, only to have him stand back up and kill them.

[close]

That was awesome.

The psychological stuff was way out there and amateurish imo. Overall, I felt it was substantially worse than the first remake, which I liked, but didn't love.

[demi]

http://themoviespoiler.com/Spoilers/halloween2.html

This sounds so awful, especially the ending

[demi]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1311067/board/thread/146937847

omg

[The Fake Shemp]

I know it wasn't rape. But it did look like she was being humped every time he pulled her back sorry but it did.

I know it's not rape, but it looked like rape!

[demi]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1311067/board/thread/147003811

The OFFICIAL rape debate