Kanye West proves he's a dick again (MTV VMA's)

[The Fake Shemp]

Again, you refer to sampling music from within the African-American musical experience. That right there should let you know where the argument stands.

I never said a) Kanye West is the only producer with a rudimentary knowledge of music history or b) he is a pioneer.

People have sampled from rock, industrial, alternative and house music before. It's not necessarily new.

But it is the exception.

p.s. music history and musical knowledge are two different things

[The Fake Shemp]

And to further clarify, the only heavy producers off the top that I believe have a better knowledge of music history than Kanye is Dre, RZA and Pete Rock, regardless of their individual talent.

There are ton of producers that have far more musical knowledge than Kanye, and even more with better knowledge of music history in terms of the African-American musical experience.

But few branch out of that experience, and it's understandable why. You want to connect to your roots, and I think it's difficult for the black community to accept that white people have made some decent music that isn't a direct imitation of what their ancestors created.

[Phoenix Dark]

Again, you refer to sampling music from within the African-American musical experience. That right there should let you know where the argument stands.

I never said a) Kanye West is the only producer with a rudimentary knowledge of music history or b) he is a pioneer.

People have sampled from rock, industrial, alternative and house music before. It's not necessarily new.

But it is the exception.

p.s. music history and musical knowledge are two different things

So what exactly is your argument? You say Kanye is a musician...when he's not. You've argued his production style is different from most of his peers, who mainly sample jazz/R&B/African American staples, which isn't necessarily true either. The sampling techniques of the 90s and early 00s, before the chimpmonk style really started dominated, varied - perhaps more so than today. Think about Diddy's stuff during the time, which sampled rock to disco to pop etc. Kanye introduced soul sample dominance to the mainstream (RZA was doing that shit on Wu Tang Forever but I wouldn't say that was a mainstream radio album). With Graduation he sampled many different genres, which Timbaland and other producers were doing to great years before. In short, hip hop sampling has been varied for a long time, from Run DMC sampling rock to Kanye sampling Daft Punk.

music history and musical knowledge are two different things

True
 
edit: Premier doesn't have better knowledge of music history than Kanye? Or Q-Tip? Or Madlib? Or DOOM? Timbaland? etc

[The Fake Shemp]

You say Kanye is a musician...when he's not.

That's your personal opinion, and not a fact. The fact is that he makes music, therefore he is a musician.

You've argued his production style is different from most of his peers, who mainly sample jazz/R&B/African American staples, which isn't necessarily true either.

How is that not true? You're willing to argue that the majority of producers don't sample mainly jazz, R&B, etc.?

The sampling techniques of the 90s and early 00s, before the chimpmonk style really started dominated, varied - perhaps more so than today. Think about Diddy's stuff during the time, which sampled rock to disco to pop etc. Kanye introduced soul sample dominance to the mainstream

(RZA was doing that shit on Wu Tang Forever but I wouldn't say that was a mainstream radio album). With Graduation he sampled many different genres, which Timbaland and other producers were doing to great years before.

I would concede that RZA is certainly more varied than Kanye, but Timbaland? Nope.

In short, hip hop sampling has been varied for a long time, from Run DMC sampling rock to Kanye sampling Daft Punk.

Sampling has been varied, sampling of music outside the African-American musical experience has not. The fact that you just cited arguably the two most prominent examples is evident of that.

Maurice, the argument is that he has a rudimentary knowledge of music history that the majority of his peers don't - not all. And a lot of your points pretty much cement my case.

Yes, there are people with greater knowledge on certain subjects than Kanye - I do not claim he is a music historian, by any means.

But in terms of a knowledge of the overall history, and appreciation, he is certainly amongst a few.

[Himu]

He's not saying that they don't. It's obvious they do, especially Tip and Doom.

[twerd]

edit: Brion made Late Registration

Right, but who before Kanye would have had the gall to let Brion do that?

[The Fake Shemp]

From master music historian, Eric P:

<Eric P> i'll agree to a lot of that

... at this point, Maurice, you're arguing because you just don't like Kanye. And that's fine, and I can totally appreciate that. You cannot deny he looks outside of typical African-American influences, when most don't. There are producers that embrace the fact that they make "black music".

[Himu]

Tip and Doom have a lot of musical history...

But when I think of Tip, I think of jazzy beats, ones that have soul. Hence, his point stands.

As for Doom, Doom does heavy Afro-American stuff as well, although he branches out far more.

I'd say Mos Def branches out past the Afro-American roots, especially with The New Danger. I know he's not a producer, but doesn't his band play with him on many songs?

[Himu]

edit: Brion made Late Registration

Right, but who before Kanye would have had the gall to let Brion do that?

Can't think of anyone who took a white producer who's known for working with music outside of afro-american oriented music and worked alongside him as a producer.

Then again, for me, the forefront of rap for me are the lyrics and rappers more than the producers. I don't instigate or investigate who made what beat.

[The Fake Shemp]

I'd definitely put Mos Def in that category, as well.

By the way, here's a quote from DJ Premier on his influences, Maurice:

"Marley Marl is my number one inspiration. Jam Master Jay, Mixmaster Ice and UTFO. Grandmaster D and Whodini. DJ Cheese, Grandmaster Flash, Kool Herc, Afrika Bambaataa. Jazzy Jay, even Cut Creator. Seeing them do what they do. It’s black music, it’s black culture, it comes from the ghetto. How can you not relate to ghetto people when that’s the rawest form of blackness? Even though it’s not a good place in regards to the economy and how bad people have it in the neighborhood, the realism’s there, and that’s what we were born out of. So I very much pay respect by doing the same type of music in return."

... Checkmate.

Now if your argument is that Premier has a better knowledge of the African-American musical experience, I'd agree with you.

[Himu]

I'm sure stuff like this was very common in the 80's. Remember the Run DMC and Aerosmith song? I really like it when rappers are willing to work outside their comfort zone. It's one of the reasons I cannot wait for this:

[youtube=560,345]QtZVUT3B_L0[/youtube]

[Himu]

I especially love it when Kanye works with John Mayer.

[Phoenix Dark]

And hence Eric P swoops in to save the day? No. I like Kanye, I think his first two albums are great. What I don't like is people giving him credit he doesn't deserve. If you've noticed I make the same arguments against Eminem, who is also given ridiculous levels of praise for things others have done for years.

Is Soulja Boy a musician?

I would concede that RZA is certainly more varied than Kanye, but Timbaland? Nope.

Why? Sample wise he has worked with electronica, eastern music, and many other things for years. I can't say I'm a fan of his, but in terms of sample variation he takes the cake.

How is that not true? You're willing to argue that the majority of producers don't sample mainly jazz, R&B, etc.?

I'm not arguing that. The problem with your argument is that Kanye does too. In fact, his career is based on soul sampling. Recently he has began sampling other works but that doesn't change the fact that most of his work is firmly based on soul/r&b/pop/etc. Graduation features samples from Elton John, Michael Jackson, Labi Siffre, Prince Phillip Mitchell, Laura Nyro, Super Cat: pop, r&b, soul, Reggae. In short, the majority of samples on that album fit the very description you've given to "most" hip hop producers 

Checkmate

I've agree that Kanye's appreciation and knowledge of musical history overall far surpasses most rappers. In terms of producers I firmly disagree, and you haven't given one ounce of evidence to back that claim up

[The Fake Shemp]

Personally, I'm glad for Kanye ripping Daft Punk, because prior to "Stronger", the only other popular, mainstream convergence of hip hop and rock that people would point to - outside of Run DMC and Aerosmith - was Jay-Z and Linkin Park.

[Phoenix Dark]

Personally, I'm glad for Kanye ripping Daft Punk, because prior to "Stronger", the only other popular, mainstream convergence of hip hop and rock that people would point to - outside of Run DMC and Aerosmith - was Jay-Z and Linkin Park.

 

Where's Saint Cornelius

and herein lies another beef I have: people giving Jay-Z credit for hip hop trends/innovations/whatever

[drew]

quoting oaers about being on his dick no doubt

note that this will also elicit a dick riding response

[Himu]

What else is there to say or back up? Kanye works with a far more variety of individuals from different musical heritages than other producers. Producers typically produce a certain style; most of which are rested in heavy Afro-American cultural roots just like that DJ Premier quote comes from.

If you're set on saying Kanye doesn't get outside of the black community comfort zone in his music more often than other producers, especially in the mainstream, than let's see examples.

[Robo]

Daft Punk isn't rock, either!  Willco failing on all fronts.

[OptimoPeach]

other producers, especially in the mainstream

Come on now, that's like saying Kanye is the smartest kid on the short bus

[The Fake Shemp]

Is Soulja Boy a musician?

Unfortunately, yes. You don't have to be good at what you do to be doing it, Maurice.

Is Uwe Boll a filmmaker? Yes, he is.

You can't expect to have a logical argument with someone when your "fact" is just an opinion - you don't like Kanye West. Cool. Whatever.

He's still a musician. Saying he's not won't prevent that.

Why? Sample wise he has worked with electronica, eastern music, and many other things for years. I can't say I'm a fan of his, but in terms of sample variation he takes the cake.

Timbaland has been successful at sampling house music, but I haven't heard much of an eastern music from him and what are the "other" things?

I'm not arguing that. The problem with your argument is that Kanye does too. In fact, his career is based on soul sampling. Recently he has began sampling other works but that doesn't change the fact that most of his work is firmly based on soul/r&b/pop/etc. Graduation features samples from Elton John, Michael Jackson, Labi Siffre, Prince Phillip Mitchell, Laura Nyro, Super Cat: pop, r&b, soul, Reggae. In short, the majority of samples on that album fit the very description you've given to "most" hip hop producers 

So what are you arguing - that he is the same as the majority of hip hop producers, because he only "recently" came around to sampling other things? And are we going to discount Late Registration?

This is sounding desperate, dude.

I've agree that Kanye's appreciation and knowledge of musical history overall far surpasses most rappers. In terms of producers I firmly disagree, and you haven't given one ounce of evidence to back that claim up

I even threw out a quote from DJ Premier, one of the examples you brought up, backing me up.

You're hopeless.

Daft Punk isn't rock, either!  Willco failing on all fronts.

Yeah, I worded my last comment poorly. I more or less meant "white music".

[Himu]

Personally, I'm glad for Kanye ripping Daft Punk, because prior to "Stronger", the only other popular, mainstream convergence of hip hop and rock that people would point to - outside of Run DMC and Aerosmith - was Jay-Z and Linkin Park.

 

Where's Saint Cornelius

and herein lies another beef I have: people giving Jay-Z credit for hip hop trends/innovations/whatever

Huh? He's not giving Jay-Z credit for anything. He's just saying the last time he remembers a big mainstream convergence of genres was the Jay Z and Linkin Park album.

And I disagree.

[youtube=560,345]Jty5lnZkHdA[/youtube]

Yes, I know the song sucks.

[youtube=560,345]WD_SLt0mnDc[/youtube]

Another Kanye.

Both feature John Mayer.

Another Kanye track where he features an artist from a completely different genre:

Kanye West ft Adam Levine from Maroon 5 - Heard Em Say

What hip hop producer or rapper regularly works outside of afro-american influences more than Kanye?

If you disagree, back it up.

[The Fake Shemp]

Yeah, I don't want want anyone to think I'm giving Jay-Z credit for anything, nor do I think his collaboration with Linkin Park is any good. It's just popular, hence the EL-OH-EL.

Look, I don't think Kanye West is the greatest musician, nor the best producer. He's not in my top ten or anything.

He is, however, a smart producer and I respect his appreciation for music history and his wide palette. Arguing that the majority of his contemporaries share the same appreciation and understanding seems kind of silly.

The more fun argument is, "Who cares? White, mainstream music was built on the African-American musical experience - why should anyone listen to imitators?!"

[Phoenix Dark]

He's a musician, I'll agree with that.

Timbaland has been successful at sampling house music, but I haven't heard much of an eastern music from him and what are the "other" things?

Eastern music? Electronica? Rock? You're honestly questioning the variety of his sampling?  

So what are you arguing - that he is the same as the majority of hip hop producers, because he only "recently" came around to sampling other things? And are we going to discount Late Registration?

Hold on, you didn't even counter my point. Graduation, which is Kanye's most varied album, is still dominated by samples of music "most" hip hop producers dwell on, according to you.

Sure, let's talk about Late Registration, which is even more heavily dominated by the sampling trends of the average, run of the mill hip hop producer according to you.  

Your argument has no legs, and constantly moves the goal posts. YES hip hop was built on James Brown samples, no one will deny that. My argument is that sampling techniques changed a lot, not only recently but in the 90s as well.

My argument:
Kanye West's production style has evolved from the Blueprint days, sure. But while he has recently branched out with some interesting samples, the majority of them remain deeply rooted in R&B, pop, and soul. Sampling Can and Steely Dan didn't change that on Graduation. His mainstream peers like Timbaland, DJ Toomp, Dr Dre, The Neptunes, Diddy, Swizz Beatz, Scott Storch, etc have all sampled various genres of music as well. He's not an exception to a rule, he's not a pioneer, he's not particularly revolutionary etc.

[Saint Cornelius]

DJ Premier is another one I forgot.

But 9th Wonder? I have NEVER dug sped-up soul samples and thus,  I'm not feeling that cat whatsoever.

If someone would be so kind as to recommend a good beat of his, I'll check it out.

[The Fake Shemp]

I'm not going to even reply to all of that, because you've seemingly lost the point and have now shifted to some kind of bizarro world where apparently sampling mostly black influences negates branching out.

Nobody was even debating that. I think it's pretty awesome that it's apparently your fall back position now - "Well, even though you are right that he has an appreciation for a wider array of music and history, he samples all the same stuff that afro-centric producers do! So there!"

Uh, yeah? He is a hip hop artist, he's not making rock albums.

[Saint Cornelius]

Willco, refusing to argue about some pointless bullshit?

[The Fake Shemp]

Also, what rock samples and collaborations is Timbaland on? And can you really point to Middle Eastern influences?

[The Fake Shemp]

Willco, refusing to argue about some pointless bullshit?

I was going to stop, but then this comment made me go on. You're like my muse.

[Phoenix Dark]

I'm not going to even reply to all of that, because you've seemingly lost the point and have no shifted to some kind of bizarro world where apparently sampling mostly black influences negates branching out.

You're not going to reply because your argument is ridiculous and you clearly don't know much about hip hop, but that's alright. Not to mention the constant goal post moving and straw men. Where did I say he negates his more varied samples? I'm merely pointing out they are the exception to the rule for him.

I used to be a 9th fan but meh. He seems to use the same fucking drums on every track he does. He's the poster boy of a producer who has never evolved. My fav beat/LB song tho..
[youtube=560,345]n1e1wEGGQFg[/youtube]

[Saint Cornelius]

Also, what rock samples and collaborations is Timbaland on?

Ever heard of a guy named Chris Cornell, Willco?

[Phoenix Dark]

On Timbaland, one of the reasons I'm not a fan is because..
http://forums.projectcovo.com/showthread.php?t=996065

Does he sample a huge variety of music? Yes
Is he an asshole for stealing shit? Definitely

[Saint Cornelius]

I'd love to GreenMan (IASIP reference?) but he was asking for an example...

[Himu]

What was that one rap song where some big name rapper (I think it was Jay Z?) did a song with that one country music singer (I don't listen to country so don't hate)?

[The Fake Shemp]

I do not have any knowledge of Cornell post-Soundgarden. Timbaland produced?

Maurice, my point from the very start is that he has an appreciation for a wider variety of music and history than most of his contemporaries, and you seemingly agree now?

[Phoenix Dark]

I do not have any knowledge of Cornell post-Soundgarden. Timbaland produced?

Maurice, my point from the very start is that he has an appreciation for a wider variety of music and history than most of his contemporaries, and you seemingly agree now?

Where have I stated I agree with you? I'm merely pointing out sample wise, MOST of his stuff is r&b, pop, soul. That doesn't negate the variations on Graduation (uh Can, Steely Dan), it merely points out his sampling techniques are not particularly varied. Which has been my argument this entire thread.

And yes, Timbaland produced for Cornell. But pretend like you never saw this sentence, for the good of your ears!

[Himu]

[The Fake Shemp]

We weren't talking about his sampling, we were talking about his appreciation of music and its history.

Evolution of the argument:

Me: Kanye West has an appreciation for music and a knowledge of history that the majority of his contempories don't.
Maurice: What, so many more producers have more musical knowledge!
Me: That's not what we're talking about!
Maurice: So many producers know more about music history!
Me: No, they know more about afro-centric music history.
Maurice: Lies! Look at DJ Premier! Tip! Etc.!
Me: Premier obviously is entrenched in the African-American experience by his own admittance, Tip with jazz, etc.
Maurice: Well, yeah, Kanye might have a wider knowledge of music but HE MOSTLY MAKES BLACK MUSIC!
Me: ...

[Himu]

Oh right. That was actually a pretty good song.

[The Fake Shemp]

If Timbaland actually worked with Cornell, I'm willing to concede and put him in the same fray. Most of my knowledge of his work stems from Jay-Z, Missy Elliot and his string of pop crap in recent years (not a fan).

[Phoenix Dark]

We weren't talking about his sampling, we were talking about his appreciation of music and its history.

Evolution of the argument:

Me: Kanye West has an appreciation for music and a knowledge of history that the majority of his contempories don't.
Maurice: What, so many more producers have more musical knowledge!
Me: That's not what we're talking about!
Maurice: So many producers know more about music history!
Me: No, they know more about afro-centric music history.
Maurice: Lies! Look at DJ Premier! Tip! Etc.!
Me: Premier obviously is entrenched in the African-American experience by his own admittance, Tip with jazz, etc.
Maurice: Well, yeah, Kanye might have a wider knowledge of music but HE MOSTLY MAKES BLACK MUSIC!
Me: ...

Meh, this happens whenever you argue on the forum and lose. You misrepresent the discussion and make yourself the victor. My argument from the beginning has had three main points

1. Sure, Kanye knows more about music history than his rapper peers
2. Nah, Kanye's music history isn't ahead of most of his producer peers
3. Nah, most of Kanye's samples are r&B, pop, or soul based.

We agree on 1. 3 is a fact. I suppose we can agree to disagree on 2, it's not much of a big deal to me.

[The Fake Shemp]

I guess clearly being in the minority, even against your own black e-friend, make you right.

Your argument stems from the fact that you don't respect Kanye West as a musician. You can't admit that he might be knowledgeable on something that better producers aren't, because that somehow inflates his value.

If you quit being so personal, and talked about it objectively, you'd have to concede the point.

[Saint Cornelius]

If Timbaland actually worked with Cornell

If you don't know what you're talking about, why do you insist on talking?

[Himu]

DJ Premier is another one I forgot.

But 9th Wonder? I have NEVER dug sped-up soul samples and thus,  I'm not feeling that cat whatsoever.

If someone would be so kind as to recommend a good beat of his, I'll check it out.

I guess he's not your thing, but I really enjoy his stuff.

http://www.mtv.com/videos/little-brother/61319/lovin-it.jhtml

[cool breeze]

Today I had the pleasure of sitting behind two groups of people talking about this event.  First was two black girls who talked about how they felt bad for Kanye west.  Second was an old white woman and younger white guy who talked about how terrible he is.  More interesting was the radio saying Obama is a racist for calling Kanye a jackass.

[Phoenix Dark]

I guess clearly being in the minority, even against your own black e-friend, make you right.

Your argument stems from the fact that you don't respect Kanye West as a musician. You can't admit that he might be knowledgeable on something that better producers aren't, because that somehow inflates his value.

If you quit being so personal, and talked about it objectively, you'd have to concede the point.

Once again, I like Kanye. A buddy of mine got hold of one of his earliest demos back in the day - in short I've been a fan for some time. He makes - well, made - good music. Who wouldn't like the fact that he's breaking down hip hop stereotypes in 2009, something very few mainstream rappers are doing, if any outside of Eminem also.

Do I think he's a great producer? Of course not. He's not a great rapper either. Does that make me a hater? No.

I've been looking at this objectively from the beginning, and I've been very consistent. Anyone who is familiar with my rap posts knows Kanye, Eminem, and Jay-Z take the most of my e-ire on message boards. It's not because I dislike them - as I said, Kanye's good work is good, Eminem used to be awesome, and Jay-Z has a couple great albums. But they are the three hip hop artists most often given praise and credit for shit they have no business getting. Jay-Z has been a joke for some time, Eminem isn't the first rap artist to make personal/introspective songs, and the former/latter apply to Kanye equally.

[Himu]

Yeah, I won't deny Kanye's ability to make good music. I just haven't been impressed with anything of his in a while.

I thought you said before that you weren't a fan of Kanye until College Dropout came out and it got you into hip hop again, which is similar to my situation?

What is this about a Kanye demo?

[OptimoPeach]

Since I have no life I went and counted every non-jazz/R&B/Afrocentric sample on Graduation.

Elton John - Someone Saved My Life Tonight
Steely Dan - Kid Charlemagne
Daft Punk - Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger
Labi Siffre (who was sampled by Eminem 8 years before Kanye) - My Song
Mountain - Long Red
Can - Sing Swan Song
Laura Nyro - Save The Country
Thom Yorke - The Eraser

And can you really point to Middle Eastern influences?

Eastern, i.e. eastern Asia.

Jim Jarmusch hired the primary producer of the Wu-Tang Clan to score his film Ghost Dog: The Way Of The Samurai. Jarmusch felt that RZA, who incorporates Eastern music and philosophies into his brand of hip-hop, would be able to capture the essence of the film,

PD did list some good examples of other mainstream producers that have at least as many or more diverse samples. Swizz, Storch, Timbaland, and of course RZA. I think you could add Hi-Tek to that list as well. I'd disqualify Dre and The Neptunes. I'm not intimately familiar with their sampling habits, but I can't recall hearing much of anything other than the usual Afrocentric stuff from them.

I don't think it's fair to limit this to mainstream producers, either, though.

But I probably jumped into this too late

On Timbaland, one of the reasons I'm not a fan is because..
http://forums.projectcovo.com/showthread.php?t=996065

Does he sample a huge variety of music? Yes
Is he an asshole for stealing shit? Definitely

Come on now, Crystal Castles has been involved in copyright disputes at least 2 or 3 times.
edit: I mean on the guilty end

[The Fake Shemp]

If Timbaland actually worked with Cornell

If you don't know what you're talking about, why do you insist on talking?

I'm not infallible, but I'm am also willing to concede a point when I'm clearly wrong. I don't really follow Timbaland, not out of ignorance, but I'm not a fan of his pop stuff.

That said, I have a pretty good knowledge of the genre - certainly enough to make a very easy claim that most producers do not go outside their afro-centric spheres of influence and appreciate the ones that do.

... as for you, Maurice, you're clearly not objective when the first reply out of you is: "Kanye West is not a musician."

You've got a level of personal disdain for the man that clouds your judgment on this one. I fucking hate Chickenfoot, but I'm not going to call the talentless hacks.

[Phoenix Dark]

PD did list some good examples of other mainstream producers that have at least as many or more diverse samples. Swizz, Storch, Timbaland, and of course RZA. I think you could add Hi-Tek to that list as well. I'd disqualify Dre and The Neptunes. I'm not intimately familiar with their sampling habits, but I can't recall hearing much of anything other than the usual Afrocentric stuff from them.

I don't think it's fair to limit this to mainstream producers, either, though.

But I probably jumped into this too late

On Timbaland, one of the reasons I'm not a fan is because..
http://forums.projectcovo.com/showthread.php?t=996065

Does he sample a huge variety of music? Yes
Is he an asshole for stealing shit? Definitely

Come on now, Crystal Castles has been involved in copyright disputes at least 2 or 3 times.
edit: I mean on the guilty end

Save The Country is an r&b song with touches of gospel, and My Song is pretty jazzy lol. But anyway

Yea Crystal Castles are guilty too, as are many electronic artists I'm sure.

Eh Willco, once again I disagree but whatever. You've moved the goal post too many times, I'm tired. But hopefully next time you discuss rap you'll have some homework done before hand

[Saint Cornelius]

That said, I have a pretty good knowledge of the genre - certainly enough to make a very easy claim that most producers do not go outside their afro-centric spheres of influence and appreciate the ones that do.

Willco, it's useless to argue with you because you get presented with facts and you just outright ignore them.

[OptimoPeach]

Save The Country is an r&b song with touches of gospel, and My Song is pretty jazzy lol.

Woops, I didn't even mean to put Save the Country on there. But I call BS on My Song

That said, I have a pretty good knowledge of the genre - certainly enough to make a very easy claim that most producers do not go outside their afro-centric spheres of influence and appreciate the ones that do.

Willco, it's useless to argue with you because you get presented with facts and you just outright ignore them.

He said Timbaland counts

[The Fake Shemp]

What are you talking about? You linked to Cornell and Timbaland, and I conceded. You haven't even said anything, other than linking to that.

I'll agree with Optimo on RZA (which I've said since the beginning), Timbaland and Storch. I can't agree on Hi-Tek. I think Dre, while not featuring prominently throughout his work, has expressed his appreciation for a wide array in music in discussions.

[Saint Cornelius]

Willco said:

...most producers do not go outside their afro-centric spheres of influence and appreciate the ones that do.

after you said

Elton John - Someone Saved My Life Tonight
Steely Dan - Kid Charlemagne
Daft Punk - Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger
Labi Siffre (who was sampled by Eminem 8 years before Kanye) - My Song
Mountain - Long Red
Can - Sing Swan Song
Laura Nyro - Save The Country
Thom Yorke - The Eraser

so you gave him examples of non-afro-centric spheres of influence and Willco continues to bleat on and on about how "well, most of them don't!"

shaking my fucking head.

[Himu]

How did that anything change? He's right, most of them don't. They're exceptions, however, do they do it as regularly as Kanye? That list comes straight from Kanye's third album Graduation.

[The Fake Shemp]

I was obviously referring to PhoenixDark, per our discussion, and second, he was listing samples from Graduation you dummy.

... Y'know, the KANYE WEST album.

Shaking my fucking head.

[Phoenix Dark]

Meh, you have no argument now. I've been talking about sampling for two pages, what have you done outside of throw up weak arguments ("lets talk about Late Registration!"  ) before back peddling. We agree about Kanye having a wide range of music taste, history, appreciation, etc. But when the discussion moves to sampling - you know, the main gist of my argument - you have absolutely no ground to stand on.

[Fresh Prince]

Cliff notes please.

[The Fake Shemp]

Cliff notes please.

Me: Kanye West has an appreciation for music and a knowledge of history that the majority of his contempories don't.
Maurice: What, so many more producers have more musical knowledge!
Me: That's not what we're talking about!
Maurice: So many producers know more about music history!
Me: No, they know more about afro-centric music history.
Maurice: Lies! Look at DJ Premier! Tip! Etc.!
Me: Premier obviously is entrenched in the African-American experience by his own admittance, Tip with jazz, etc.
Maurice: Well, yeah, Kanye might have a wider knowledge of music but HE MOSTLY MAKES BLACK MUSIC!
Me: ...

... Now Phoenix Dark is somehow trying to say the argument is about sampling or something. I don't know. I lost track after he agreed that Kanye West has a broader knowledge of music history than his contemporaries, but that he doesn't.

I think we all moved on, now we're talking about producers that have looked outside afro-centric influences.

[Robo]

Cliff notes please.

Kanye West rulz
Nuh-uh
Ya-huh
Nuh-uh
Ya-huh
etc.

[The Fake Shemp]

Hey now, I made a strict point to say that I do not think that he "rulz", but rather is "the defining voice of our generation".

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Just kidding!

[close]