Kanye West proves he's a dick again (MTV VMA's)

[Phoenix Dark]

Cliff notes please.

Me: Kanye West has an appreciation for music and a knowledge of history that the majority of his contempories don't.
Maurice: What, so many more producers have more musical knowledge!
Me: That's not what we're talking about!
Maurice: So many producers know more about music history!
Me: No, they know more about afro-centric music history.
Maurice: Lies! Look at DJ Premier! Tip! Etc.!
Me: Premier obviously is entrenched in the African-American experience by his own admittance, Tip with jazz, etc.
Maurice: Well, yeah, Kanye might have a wider knowledge of music but HE MOSTLY MAKES BLACK MUSIC!
Me: ...

... Now Phoenix Dark is somehow trying to say the argument is about sampling or something. I don't know. I lost track after he agreed that Kanye West has a broader knowledge of music history than his contemporaries, but that he doesn't.

I think we all moved on, now we're talking about producers that have looked outside afro-centric influences.

Show me this post

I've been talking about sampling for two pages. I've also discussed this idea that Kanye has more musical knowledge than his producing peers, which baffles me.

[The Fake Shemp]

Yeah, we know you've been talking about that for almost two pages, I just copied and pasted from an early summary. It didn't work as a straw man then and it won't work now.

I also never said the latter, in fact I said the exact opposite like two pages.

p.s. music history and musical knowledge are two different things

There are ton of producers that have far more musical knowledge than Kanye

Keep trying, Maurice.

[OptimoPeach]

I can't agree on Hi-Tek.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_of_Thought_%28Reflection_Eternal_album%29#Samples
Redbone (rock)
Tomita (moonspeak electronica)
Soft Machine (rock)
Bo Hansson (prog rock)
Hugo Montenegro (psychedelic-ish pop)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Teknology%C2%B2:_The_Chip
Andy Williams (pop)

And those are just off of his solo albums. I'm too lazy to dig through the myriad of songs he's produced for other artists. But hey, 7 diverse samples, just as many as Kanye. And those are from less mainstream artists than Kanye, too.

How did that anything change? He's right, most of them don't. They're exceptions, however, do they do it as regularly as Kanye? That list comes straight from Kanye's third album Graduation.

7 non-Afrocentric samples out of ~45 (that's not an exact number, I added every track from all 3 of his albums and estimated that about 10 or so were probably skits and filler) songs isn't an exception? That is anything but regularity.

[Phoenix Dark]

I lost track after he agreed that Kanye West has a broader knowledge of music history than his contemporaries, but that he doesn't.

Show me the post Willco

[The Fake Shemp]

I don't think anyone is arguing Kanye is not deeply rooted in hip hop - as stated earlier, he makes hip hop albums, not rock albums.

Himuro is saying what I was saying - that most producers do not look outside of afro-centric influences, whereas Kanye does. I don't think even I could argue that most of his stuff is not R&B-based. That's silly.

Thanks for the Hi-Tek links, I shall take a look.

[Phoenix Dark]

Once again, show me the post.

With respect to sampling, most good producers look beyond afro-centric influences - this was true in the 90s, it's true today. Even Diddy's sampling was varied in that regard. There was a time when nearly everything was James Brown based, but that hasn't been the case for some time. Kanye, like most mainstream producers, is influenced and takes samples from a variety of works.

So with Hi-Tek you make a definitive statement, are proven wrong, then decide it's time to do the homework? Just as with Timbaland. That's been your pattern in this thread.

I didn't include Tek or most underground producers because overall, they're even more varied than Kanye and the mainstream producers. I wanted to keep my argument on mainstream producers, at least with respect to current hip hop. But when we expand the perimeters the argument that most production is "afro-centric" seems even more out of touch with reality.

[The Fake Shemp]

But that was never my argument, I said contemporaries from the beginning. Spreading it outside mainstream producers makes any argument moot for any genre.

Don't try and piggyback on someone else's argument.

My resolution to the matter is that since Optimo and Himuor seem to be pretty straightforward and objective, that we compile a list of contemporaries and go down, one-by-one, if we think their knowledge and appreciation of music history is as diverse as Kanye's.

Any problems, Optimo?

Obviously, we'd have to add aforementioned producers, such as Dre, Timbaland, RZA, etc.

[Phoenix Dark]

I'm not piggybanking on anyone's argument. You're wrong, end of story. And the funny thing is that you haven't been able to back up a single claim, even the obvious stuff, like lying about my argument. You can't even find a post of mine that comes close to saying what you allege. But carry on Willco, I'm done here. I hate looking like the combative asshole but this is ridiculous.

brb, gonna go listen to some soul music

[The Fake Shemp]

Man, someone really doesn't like Kanye West.

[OptimoPeach]

I don't think Hi-Tek counts as underground. He's done production for G-Unit, Snoop Dogg, Ghostface, and The Game among others. He might not be as acclaimed as, say, Timbaland, but he has at least collaborated with some of the most popular artists of the past decade or so.

Anyway, I'm all for a comprehensive list, but I uh...just don't really feel like doing that. Or at least not today. Maybe if it's slowly compiled or something, but I'm not interested enough in this to spend so much time dissecting an e-argument lol. Sorry

[The Fake Shemp]

I wouldn't label him underground, but would he really be labelled as a contemporary?

[Oblivion]

[OptimoPeach]

I wouldn't label him underground, but would he really be labelled as a contemporary?

I guess not. I'll admit that the only reason I even know of him is because of Mos Def, Talib Kweli, and Common

[twerd]

lock thread, this is terrible.

[Fresh Prince]

Kanye is better than most, is knowledgeable about music, life and society and should know better but does stupid shit on a professional level (i.e. 808 and Heartbreak) and a celebrity level (interrupting Taylor Swift)

[Saint Cornelius]

Kanye is better than most

but does stupid shit on a professional level (i.e. 808 and Heartbreak) and a celebrity level (interrupting Taylor Swift)

compelling argument for sure