There are a few exceptions, but games are ultra low brow entertainment....

[Don Flamenco]

...with negligible artistic value.  but perhaps it has tons of potential.  then again, I have tons of potential and so does everyone else in the world, so...potential doesn't put bread on the table. 

so why do gamers continue to struggle to validate games as an artistic medium?  It's porn for the synapses and there's nothing wrong with that. 

[Bebpo]

$2.99 on steam and disproves your entire post

[Don Flamenco]

aside from the caveat at the beginning of the topic.

[MyNameIsMethodis]

Because these people devote their life to it and they don't want to be "nerds".

[Oblivion]

Justification.

Nerds love their games, but they don't want the stigma attached to them.

[duckman2000]

I don't know about negligible artistic value, some of these worlds are quite remarkable, and even more so when populated with fitting characters, architecture and other objects referencing culture and sociopolitical climates. I don't care about games as art, and I replace the term "art" with "design" where ever possible, but there's a ton of artistic value in and around games. Them being first and foremost entertainment pieces does little to change that.

[Human Snorenado]

Because these people devote their life to it and they don't want to be "nerds".

This is probably your most coherent and correct post ever.  You get a gold star.

But yeah, seriously tho.  I don't CARE that games are fuckin nerdy- I'm a nerd and don't give a shit.  I like playing games.  I sometimes like playing games with animu looking leads as long as they're not too fuckin' creepy.  All of the "games as art" people need to just stfu and go back to jerking off to ICO and SotC and leave me alone with my nerddom.

[MyNameIsMethodis]

You forgot the posts where I said the Braves sucked.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[Human Snorenado]

No, you pretty much don't know shit about beisbol.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

To justify throwing away many of their prime years and lonely Friday and Saturday nights playing games.

[brawndolicious]

I agree, there are some games with great stories or atmosphere like bioshock or fallout and for those games, the vast majority of their value is because of what they do "artistically" or whatever.  But the majority of games that I buy and like are the chainsaw & teabag form of entertainment.

[tiesto]

Because these people devote their life to it and they don't want to be "nerds".

This is probably your most coherent and correct post ever.  You get a gold star.

But yeah, seriously tho.  I don't CARE that games are fuckin nerdy- I'm a nerd and don't give a shit.  I like playing games.  I sometimes like playing games with animu looking leads as long as they're not too fuckin' creepy.  All of the "games as art" people need to just stfu and go back to jerking off to ICO and SotC and leave me alone with my nerddom.

Totally agree with you on this one, Triumph. Even though one of my favorite games ever (Rez) is frequently used in the whole "games as art" discussion, I prefer when a game is fun/entertaining first before its artsy. I don't mind a cheesy story that doesn't take itself seriously, I can overlook shitty voice acting, or plot holes, or uninspired art direction.. as long as the game mechanics are solid.

T EXP: I'll sometimes sit in on a Friday nite playing games, but for me that's a great way to unwind, there are some weekends I don't feel like going out at all, and just wanna chill... I find videogames (especially RPGs) to be great games to just chill out to.

[EmCeeGrammar]

Ive played some games that I would call "art".  They're long term appeal is negligible though. 

[Great Rumbler]

Most games are more artistic, and enjoyable, than the Transformers movies at least.

Sorry, Willco.

[ToxicAdam]

Games are merely more elaborate forms of classical conditioning. The "art" is just another stimuli that pushes you forward. It's purpose is not to make you think or inspire, but merely to keep you playing for "what's next".

[brawndolicious]

^Is that any different than a tv show or movie?  The ultimate point is to just be entertained but it's nice if you have to think a little.

[bork]

Sorry, but according to an IGN™ gaming journalist™, Metroid Prime™ Trilogy is a video game masterpiece on the level of Citizen Kane.

CITIZEN KANE!!   

[duckman2000]

Sorry, but according to an IGN™ gaming journalist™, Metroid Prime™ Trilogy is a video game masterpiece on the level of Citizen Kane.

CITIZEN KANE!!   

Wat

[Human Snorenado]

Ive played some games that I would call "art".  They're long term appeal is negligible though. 

Yeah, but you also call Wii Music a game, so who the hell in their right mind is gonna listen to you about anything?

[etiolate]

In order to defend itself and it's artistic freedoms, games have to legitimize their artistic value.  Otherwise, it will be treated like porn and I don't think the industry or the fans want that.

Also, don't act like you aren't ashamed of the nerd factor, especially this forum. If you didn't care so much you guys wouldn't spend so much effort in Wii-bashing. The whole battle over what the Wii provides in comparison to what is provided on other consoles is based on a strange justification of what each person plays.

The industry grew but it didn't grow up.

[Human Snorenado]

In order to defend itself and it's artistic freedoms, games have to legitimize their artistic value.  Otherwise, it will be treated like porn and I don't think the industry or the fans want that.

Also, don't act like you aren't ashamed of the nerd factor, especially this forum. If you didn't care so much you guys wouldn't spend so much effort in Wii-bashing. The whole battle over what the Wii provides in comparison to what is provided on other consoles is based on a strange justification of what each person plays.

The industry grew but it didn't grow up.

Ugh, stfu.  Why aren't you busy comparing nintendo persecution to the holocaust?  GTFO.

[etiolate]

Grow up?

[Human Snorenado]

It's hard to grow up when people are taunting poor nintendo fans, which is comparable to the holocaust.

[The Sceneman]

^ 

and why the fuck was this thread even made, games are fucking sweet if you know how to enjoy them.Just dont think too much into it.

'Games are Art' fucks need to be buttfucked to death. yeah some games have fairly clever drawings and words, but dont go preaching to Joe Public about it. If you enjoy gaming who cares what other cuntbags think, just play them games and love them. Its what I do

[EmCeeGrammar]

Ive played some games that I would call "art".  They're long term appeal is negligible though. 

Yeah, but you also call Wii Music a game, so who the hell in their right mind is gonna listen to you about anything?

Uhh, are you depressed or something?  Who expresses themselves with the intention that anyone should necessarily give a fuck first?  Unless you're a bald fat schizoid living in someone else's house.

[etiolate]

It's hard to grow up when people are taunting poor nintendo fans, which is comparable to the holocaust.

Hey, bring up a thread where people had to exaggerate what was being said to try to deflect me.

I wouldn't try that tactic here though.

[bork]

Sorry, but according to an IGN™ gaming journalist™, Metroid Prime™ Trilogy is a video game masterpiece on the level of Citizen Kane.

CITIZEN KANE!!   

Wat

http://redirectingat.com/?id=593X1004&url=http%3A%2F%2Fabcnews.go.com%2Fvideo%2FplayerIndex%3Fid%3D8765863

[Human Snorenado]

It's hard to grow up when people are taunting poor nintendo fans, which is comparable to the holocaust.

Hey, bring up a thread where people had to exaggerate what was being said to try to deflect me.

I wouldn't try that tactic here though.

If I had made the stupid posts you had in that thread, I'd be trying to revise history too.

OH SHIT WAIT

REVISIONIST HISTORY

DENIAL OF THE HOLOCAUST

FIRST THEY WILL COME FOR THE NINTENDO FANS

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW

[Bocsius]

link pls kthx

[maxy]

Games are for kids and nerds.

/goes outside

[Don Flamenco]

In order to defend itself and it's artistic freedoms, games have to legitimize their artistic value.  Otherwise, it will be treated like porn and I don't think the industry or the fans want that.

Also, don't act like you aren't ashamed of the nerd factor, especially this forum. If you didn't care so much you guys wouldn't spend so much effort in Wii-bashing. The whole battle over what the Wii provides in comparison to what is provided on other consoles is based on a strange justification of what each person plays.

The industry grew but it didn't grow up.

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE WII?!!!  GO DRINK BLEACH!


and I think you're completely wrong about the industry and fans not wanting it to be like porn.   

COD and Halo fans wouldn't be happy if online MP had exposition or narration or tasteful music playing in the background.  The industry, especially, thrives on the superficial aspects. More stats, guns, gameplay options, more hours, better graphics, better sound, more intense competition...these are the things that sell games. 

These things come together to provide the sensation feedback that gamers want, thus selling games, which is what the industry wants.  And that's all it is...sensation feedback aka synapse porn. 

[Great Rumbler]

In order to defend itself and it's artistic freedoms, games have to legitimize their artistic value.  Otherwise, it will be treated like porn and I don't think the industry or the fans want that.

Also, don't act like you aren't ashamed of the nerd factor, especially this forum. If you didn't care so much you guys wouldn't spend so much effort in Wii-bashing. The whole battle over what the Wii provides in comparison to what is provided on other consoles is based on a strange justification of what each person plays.

The industry grew but it didn't grow up.

WHAT THE FUCK DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE WII?!!!  GO DRINK BLEACH!


and I think you're completely wrong about the industry and fans not wanting it to be like porn.   

COD and Halo fans wouldn't be happy if online MP had exposition or narration or tasteful music playing in the background.  The industry, especially, thrives on the superficial aspects. More stats, guns, gameplay options, more hours, better graphics, better sound, more intense competition...these are the things that sell games. 

These things come together to provide the sensation feedback that gamers want, thus selling games, which is what the industry wants.  And that's all it is...sensation feedback aka synapse porn. 

Sounds a lot like the movie industry. Or, basically, any entertainment industry.

There's a few things with genuine artistic merit, some of which achieve some small measure of success. And there's a lot of really overblown synapse porn that makes hundreds of millions every year and then the next year something new tries to top what came before.

[Draft]

This is the dumbest argument.

Of course they are art. Gameplay is art. Chess is art. That's why there's a million board games, and only one chess.

Stupid.

[Don Flamenco]

part of the problem is not settling the terms beforehand too, I guess (as much my fault as anyone's.) 

Of course there's an art to playing chess or an art to playing Street Fighter.  There's also an art to creating a board game and an art to creating a video game.  But the artistic value is low...i.e. we play because it's fun, like you watch Predator because it's fun, but you watch Mullholland Dr. or read the Brothers Karamazov because there's something more to those works (which may also include fun, but it's not the only level you can experience those on.)

The issue here is why something with such obviously low artistic value is always debated about whether it is "art' or not.

[Draft]

That's begging the question. Designing chess is of low artistic value? Compared to what? How many paintings, songs and books has chess outlasted? How many people has it influenced and intrigued and inspired?

There's more to art than metaphor and symbolism.

[Don Flamenco]

right, art is anything the noble amateur wants it to be.  can't win this one.  drats!

[Draft]

right, art is anything the noble amateur wants it to be.  can't win this one.  drats!

That's right, you can't. "Define art" has been a philosophy 101 koan since you and I were babies.

[Don Flamenco]

right, art is anything the noble amateur wants it to be.  can't win this one.  drats!

That's right, you can't. "Define art" has been a philosophy 101 koan since you and I were babies.

damn, you got me! 

except that I'm not dealing in that general bullshit.  There are generally accepted boundaries. Art is something that stimulates thought and emotion...everything does, so things are more or less artistic, depending on how much it touches on those things. 

okay, yes, chess and halo stimulate thought and emotion.  they are art.  Chess stimulates a lot of thought and you feel emotions all the time, which may be heightened with good competition.  Did it evolve as a way to invoke emotions?  No, it evolved as a game and the emotions felt are incidental, because nothing doesn't stimulate emotion.  It has artistic value, but people play Chess, the game, and a subset enjoy getting into the particularities, manipulating the logical set ups.  It's amazing and wonderful and complex, but it's not very high on the emotion scale. It's about as artistic as math...yes, you can arrange math in artistic ways, you can use math to create art, but it's logic.  I suppose plenty of people get emotional about math, but it's not there to provide that kind of invocation.

Take all that, apply it to video games.  Considerably lower on the thought stimulating end of things, perhaps about equal on the emotion side.  Negligible artistic value.


 

[Great Rumbler]

Again, nothing that's been said so far couldn't also be applied to movies.

[Vizzys]

painting on a canvas done by one dude because he had a message and used symbolism to represent it in some way? art
extremely detailed game world made by a large group of people, some of which artists on their own, used for the setting of an interactive video game made for profit and/or entertainment reasons? not art


although really, this argument just reminds of this mspaint picture where a fat guy is holding a copy of persona 3 and his words say "fucking masterpiece". which is funny and more of a weeaboo joke but still semi relevant, you could just replace it with ICO or something I guess

[Draft]

What are these  boundaries, who exactly defined them and then who aggragated their general acceptance?

Why does art need to elicit emotion? How much emotion does something need to generate in the audience before it becomes art? Can you measure the worth of art by how much emotion it creates?

There's a lot to consider here. The argument isn't supported very well with unsourced statements like "<chess is> about as artistic as math." What barometer of art is this using? The emotional one? Because math has probably made me far more emotional than chess ever will (that emotion being anger.)

[Don Flamenco]

What are these  boundaries, who exactly defined them and then who aggragated their general acceptance?

Why does art need to elicit emotion? How much emotion does something need to generate in the audience before it becomes art? Can you measure the worth of art by how much emotion it creates?

There's a lot to consider here. The argument isn't supported very well with unsourced statements like "<chess is> about as artistic as math." What barometer of art is this using? The emotional one? Because math has probably made me far more emotional than chess ever will (that emotion being anger.)

this is all wonderful and I concur that the lines are blurred as hell, but no, not one person has decided what art is.  Does it need to be codified or something?  I don't think it gets much broader than "stimulates thought and emotion" yet you write about it as if I've just put a leash on art.    Typically, that is what art has done/sought to do and I don't need to start posting pictures of DaVincis to prove, because I have the entire world's history to back me up.  I tried to measure it on a sliding scale, but you seem to want everything to be art.

Chess is a logical game, math is pure logic.  I take it back though, it's less logical than math, since there's the element of competition/mind games. 

Why do you care to respond if you're just going to take the "burp that came out of my mouth this morning was art" approach?  You don't care about whether something is more artistically valid than other things and don't seem to care about art at all...it being nothing, everything, and indefinable, after all.   

i mean, i realize it's fun to use logic tricks learned in class, its my usual mode too, but bringing logic to a discussion about art is like bringing a bong to an NA meeting....it nullifies the intended effect and makes sure the topic at hand never gets discussed.

[Draft]

I made my point in the first post, bud. There's thousands of board games, and then there's chess, which is better and more revered than most of them. Why is that? What sets chess apart? If it's not some artistic spark, why aren't there a hundred chesses? Or a thousands?

What sets Tetris apart? Or Pac Man? Or Mario, or Halo, and so on.

There is hard to define shit going on in game design that makes a few games legendary and most of them terrible, derivative pieces of shit. If it's not art, then what is it?

If you want to get pedantic, there's art, and there's science. The big difference, as far as I'm concerned, is that science is repeatable, while art is not.

As long as the majority of games are garbage and a few shine bright as validations of the hobby, the artistic classifaction of game design is secure.

[Draft]

Also, you are right that I lean more towards "everything is art" than "these very specific things are art," and the reasons are laziness and stupidity. I don't have the time, ability or inclination to start explicitly defining what is or isn't art, because fuck if that is not something you need to defend vigorously and thoroughly.

[brawndolicious]

I think the best compromise is to say that art is any subjective quality that people appreciate, whether it's board games or porno.  That's the reason that nerds get so wily about ico or whatever, they have the same logic as someone that thinks that you can go up to a renaissance historian and gush about your favorite music videos or whatever.

They don't understand that even if a game does have some impressive aesthetic and symbolic accomplishments, you can't just brag about it to every john doe on the street.