Author Topic: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?  (Read 2796 times)

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lordmaji

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Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« on: January 12, 2011, 10:28:43 PM »
give a good reason why you feel the way you do about your religion or the lack thereof. It's just interesting to find out why and how people came to believe what they do.

Begin! these threads are interesting to me.  :)
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Himu

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 10:31:56 PM »
Because personally, organized religion simply could not provide the answers I wished and hoped they would. I know a lot of good people who are religious, so I'm not anti-religion by any means -- at least aggressively. But it took a while to admit to myself it wasn't for me. Still, I find a lot of beauty in religions and still study them just for kicks.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 10:37:05 PM »
because saying "i don't know" does not in any way suggest i favor any absurd explanations
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demi

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 10:45:14 PM »
Because I have no guidance, otherwise I wouldn't be jerking off to fat guys
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Diunx

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 10:46:39 PM »
Because you can see and touch Dolph Lundgren movies, therefore he exist.
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Brehvolution

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2011, 10:52:37 PM »
I'm an atheist because christians today are nothing like they were 20 years ago. So much so that I would never be associated with that fantasy world.

That said, I'm still more of a christian than any elected republican and that is fucking sad.
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naff

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 10:53:34 PM »
Because I have no faith

spoiler (click to show/hide)
I used to go to a buddhist center and meditate, but like other religions underneath a warm exterior they believe in some pretty messed up stuff. I still find aspects of some eastern religion interesting, but in the end it all boils down to the same delusional fud.
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Akala

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2011, 11:18:25 PM »
it is what it is.

Barry Egan

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2011, 12:24:45 AM »
Because psychology is more convincing than theology.

Skidmark

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2011, 02:35:50 AM »

Groogrux

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2011, 03:54:04 AM »
I believe what I do because I have faith.  I talk with God, and I've felt his presence.  Because I know certain things have not happened by coincidence, like creation or knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

I believe what I do because when I started to question what my faith and God was, I was lead to a great mentor who gave me a lot of great information about Him.
WTF

Corporal

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2011, 06:31:47 AM »
I'm agnostic, I think. Never really bothered to find a name for it, but some wiki'ing led me to this conclusion. Looking at the wiki page for agnosticism I'm a bit overwhelmed by the amount of subcategories that can be divided into, so... yeah. One of those. Probably.

From my point of view, this faith thing hinges on one or many supreme beings, whose existence can't be proven or disproven in a manner that pleases everyone. It may well exist. It may not. We may find an answer to this issue, or we may not.

For now though I, personally, have come to the conclusion that there is no godlike being in my life. I place no value in this issue, and don't deem myself superior or inferior to those that disagree with me on that matter.

For the most part science is my choice to explain where I am, what I am, and what will likely come to be. This necessitates accepting several harsh realizations, which I'm still gnawing on sometimes. Still, I think I found a good estimation of my "place in life", so to speak.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
However, it's my firm belief that without something to guide them many humans will fail at finding their own place in life. I am pretty content with not believing in some omnipotent being, but I acknowledge many have been helped by either acquiring faith in one, or by people who have. Humanity sometimes profits too, faith has given us awesome music, great works of art, impressive buildings that stand the test of time and took decades to build.

"Faith by necessity", one could call it.

Disclaimer: It needn't be faith or science that gives you your answers, either. I'm sure there are countless other ways to find your place in this zany universe, both materialistic and not alike.

I also need to acknowledge that too much faith is a bad thing. As soon as your personal beliefs start to seriously impair the lives of others you've crossed the line. Don't blow yourself up in my face, don't preach to me endlessly, don't demand of me to abide by your laws, and I'll happily let you ring your bells or chant loudly from your turrets, even if I'd rather sleep late that day. Whatever floats your boat. There are worse things to do but pray or sing with others, and it keeps communities together. Just don't overdo it.

Bonus: Conversion strategy for my type: If I think your way of life is better than mine I might waddle over and ask about details. Preaching by example, so to speak.
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TL;DR version: Meh, whatever.
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GilloD

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2011, 06:41:53 AM »
I was an atheist for 25 years. My wife starting going to Church more often and I'd come along like once a month just to be nice. And then one day I'm sitting in the pew and I'm letting other people past to go get Communion. And this one dude is like "Thanks, you first" and I'm like "Oh, no, I'm fine"- It's a young, hip, liberal church so there's always a feel folks there just toeing the water. But he says, "Go ahead, it's okay".

And the weirdest thing happened. It was like I got it. I felt enormous peace. I was being invited to the table and how many times did I have to get an invitation before I said Yes? It was like all at once I felt the Love and Faith of Christ. I have no rational, good reason to give you, but I felt it and I knew it was as true as anything else in my life.

And honestly it's been the best thing that ever happened to me. It gave me focus and support and purpose.

That said, the Catholic Church is a corrupt pustule masquerading under the service of Christ and any reasonable man or woman should demand it to be accountable. Many Catholics do good work, but the Catholic Church as an entity serves no higher master than itself.
wha

Stoney Mason

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2011, 08:10:45 AM »
Like I've always said I've got nothing especially against religious people as long as a society is very strongly secularized and fact based which a portion of religious people don't want. That's is where the conflict can sometimes exist. But as far as whatever a person believes in the privacy of his own home, I don't overly care about.

As a kid I was "religious" because I was forced to be and you quickly realize there is a negative connotation to non-belief in this society. The president ain't going to publicly be an atheist or agnostic anytime soon in this country.

But it never made any sense to me outside of wish fulfillment. I get why people believe this stuff. Dying is scary. The end of existenence is a scary thought if you love life. And creating a place like most traditional religions do where we live and party with our friends for eternity if we are good is a very appealing idea. I get it. I get why early society needed that concept very badly and even why a lot of people need it in the modern world. It just doesn't make any sense without evidence for me so I'd rather embrace truth than the warm fuzzy of a made up fiction.

One of the reasons I recently liked that Invention of lying movie was that I thought it was a rather clever and subtle investigation of religion which most mainstream movies avoid utterly. 
« Last Edit: January 13, 2011, 08:16:49 AM by Stoney Mason »

Skidmark

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2011, 07:30:07 PM »
I believe what I do because I have faith.  I talk with God, and I've felt his presence.  Because I know certain things have not happened by coincidence, like creation or knowledge of what is right and what is wrong.

I believe what I do because when I started to question what my faith and God was, I was lead to a great mentor who gave me a lot of great information about Him.
This might sound rude, but what would you do if I provide you with better answers or explanations. but before I do so, what do you consider a good answer? what does a good answer contain or provide to you? what makes a good answer? is the appeal to emotions or tradition part of it?

Groogrux

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2011, 06:41:52 AM »
Ho
This might sound rude, but what would you do if I provide you with better answers or explanations. but before I do so, what do you consider a good answer? what does a good answer contain or provide to you? what makes a good answer? is the appeal to emotions or tradition part of it?

Before you jump too far ahead of yourself,  I'll tell you two things:

(1st) I believe that science supports God, and vice versa.  I work in the medical field, and I see this evidence supported every day. 

(2nd) Some of my best friends are athiests and agnostics.  I've sat and had a lot of discussions with them about faith and God.  You probably won't have a whole lot to say that will shock and awe me.

Now, I am curious as to what answers or explanations you want to give me?  If you are talking about something like creation, for instance, then I should tell you that any person can clearly see that the story of Adam and Eve is not the end-all-be-all for how it all started.
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Olivia Wilde Homo

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2011, 06:48:42 AM »
I'm atheist.

It's a conclusion I came to when I was 11 or 12.  Nothing really seemed to hold up or make rational sense (ie, people living hundreds of years old, world engulfing floods, etc.) when you really thought about them.  I concluded that a lot of these stories were either modified by history (ie, not the word of God) or were fables that were supposed to teach basic principles of morality.  I basically asked my religion teacher (I went every Wednesday night) what I just said and their answer was that I had to have faith in them.  So I had to pretend mentally that stories that equated to the Fox and the Grapes (although granted, more insidious in nature) was the word of God.

To keep the peace, I continued going to the classes and was confirmed a year later.  Neither of my parents were religious but I didn't want to deal with the bullshit of explaining my religious stance.  It was much easier to go with the flow.  I never bothered going to church since.  As I stated, my church was a progressive Catholic church.  Supposedly the membership dropped like a rock because it wasn't right wing and vicious enough for people.  Although this was when the evangelical movement was on the upswing.  I don't know how things are now.

I don't have anything against religious people.  I don't care what religion people are, as long as they support the basic principles of humanity.  Some evangelical religious people will give you the clothes off of their backs and some atheists are total assholes about everything.  That is life.  That is my biggest beef with religion is that every group is painted with too wide of a paintbrush.  That is why I hate discussing anything religion on the internet.
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Groogrux

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2011, 06:58:52 AM »
I don't have anything against religious people.  I don't care what religion people are, as long as they support the basic principles of humanity.  Some evangelical religious people will give you the clothes off of their backs and some atheists are total assholes about everything.  That is life.  That is my biggest beef with religion is that every group is painted with too wide of a paintbrush.  That is why I hate discussing anything religion on the internet.

Agreed and good point.  I don't think people should be defined by their religion, and religions shouldn't be defined by their people. 

Peole hate catholics because of the priests, they hate prodestants because of Westboro Baptist, Muslims because of 9/11, Athiests because they believe so strongly in believing nothing, and the list goes on and on.  It is possible... that some people are just assholes, some people want to blow up the world, some people want other people to be miserable, and some people just can't keep it in their pants.
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Phoenix Dark

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2011, 04:23:22 AM »
I used to be religious. Grew up in a very religious family, went to church multiple times a week, etc. The pastor at our old church asked me to start doing the sunday announcements; basically I'd go up to the pulpit and read a list of shit that was happening that week, give shout outs to people in the hospital/sick, etc. All the other kids in the church weren't interested in our sunday classes or anything, so I stood out; honestly I just treated it as a class, and read up before going to sunday school. Naturally the other kids didn't like me.

Once I escaped home schooling in the 10th grade I was exposed to various ideas, people, etc that I had little to no contact with before. I met people of different religions, atheists, etc, began reading more and as my worldview expanded my interest in religion waned. Eventually I just moved away from it. I have great respect for religious people still, it just no longer has a place in my life. Honestly if there is a god, I doubt he gives a shit whether I watch Fresh Prince or play Pokemon.

Most of my friends from the Christian school I played basketball for have completely fallen off the wagon. They were more fundamental than me, more conservative, and their parents were considerably more strict; one of my buddy's mom would turn "indecent" magazine covers to the back before he could enter doctor's offices, store aisles, etc. I remember hanging out with a buddy of mine who dyed his hair during the summer. We were at the mall and ran into a teacher; he greeted us then went about his business. Couple months later when school started my friend got like 60 demerits for dying his hair, even though it was fucking summer.

When you treat kids like that they're gonna go all-out the minute they get some freedom.
010

Cormacaroni

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2011, 05:44:30 AM »
From someone on my Facebook:

Quote
Lost my wallet. Prayed. Got my wallet back again. Thank you Lord!


Oh no, it wasn't because you looked for it, or because you live in a nation of (largely agnostic) people that do distinguished mentally-challenged shit like return lost wallets all the freakin' time...no, it's because God listened to YOU. Not the millions dying of disease, thirst or starvation in the Sudan, say. They weren't praying hard enough! Or maybe you just tied up the line!
vjj

EmCeeGrammar

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2011, 11:03:45 AM »
Lack of?
Not a single shred of evidence in the entire universe for the basis of a god. The only thing that supports the idea of the god is:

1. A lineage instilling the "faith is a virtue" idea into children at an impressionable age. Faith, blind belief, etc is not virtuous.  In the real world, trust is usually earned through performance, or you have reasonable expectations for how things will work or perform based on your previous experience.

2. Severely faulty logical arguments, usually cyclical.  Bible told me so, watchmaker, Universe needs an origin but not the creator, etc.

3. People who apparently don't understand their emotions very well.  There are drugs out there that replicate that 'one with god' feeling people like to talk about.  Its simply a chemical reaction within your brain due to how you choose to frame your experiences, same deal with how depressed people see everything through a dark prism.  Its not indicative of a divine presence and would be considered as a borderline mental illness.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 11:17:12 AM by EmCeeGrammar »
sad

Stoney Mason

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2011, 12:53:05 PM »
For what its worth I generally don't try to make religious people on an individual level explain their faith. Its a bit unfair as the very definition of most religions is faith. By its very nature its impossible to rationally explain so by putting it in that context, its probably a poor framework. It's like trying to explain why you love somebody. You can try but it probably only makes sense in a personal context. It's why scientology on the face of it, is no more weird to me than other "religions". The only difference being how harmful an effect it may be having on its practitioners.

Of course if a religious person tries to be an a-hole about it and pretend his views are very rational or explain the world in very reasonable and concrete terms then that's when I feel like I've been given the greenlight to be an asshole back to them.

Even the most hardcore atheist has family members who are religious. So I treat them with the same respect I would treat my mother (who is also religious) with for instance as long as they don't start putting their religion into areas where it doesn't belong.


EmCeeGrammar

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2011, 01:48:02 PM »
Faith is a fallacious concept that has been cultured and groomed for centuries until it becomes ubiquitous within a belief system to the point that no one questions the core conceit.   No one questions it because it tells those who subscribe to the notion that examining it is sinful.  But once it is examined, its very apparent that faith and belief and whatnot are irrational mental constructs.  It's much like self-esteem in that it is no tangible thing nevertheless given power by the individual.  Other animals don't 'believe' things. 

But then again I think its very easy to explain why I love someone.  Usually a combination of physical and personality factors. You love your kids due to biological predispostion. etc.
sad

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2011, 01:54:07 PM »
faith itself is not a fallacious concept -- we are not omniscient creatures. putting one foot in front of the other every day are little acts of faith: faith that the ground is there as our eyes perceive it, faith that there are no hazards or pitfalls that could kill us. faith is a necessary transactional element of consciousness and our exceedingly finite capacity to know and experience our world as our limited senses permit. it is not a huge cognitive leap from the little faiths that move us through our day to the big ones of religion.
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Stoney Mason

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2011, 02:04:49 PM »
it is not a huge cognitive leap from the little faiths that move us through our day to the big ones of religion.

The little faiths we live our day to day lives with are based on everything being the same every day. If gravity has worked every day of my life its a bit understandable as human creatures to think its going to work tomorrow also. Most of organized religion only works if you willfully ignore a lot of things or make up a lot of things or vary the definitions up so every group have some different individualized concept of it.

Of course you can broaden this out beyond organized religion but whatever constitutes "belief" starts to lack any actual definition. I never have any problem with that which is sort of a properly agnostic view. 

But these arguments get so theoretical and beyond how religion is actually practiced and influential upon the world that it all becomes a bit moot sometimes to me. Real world religion as a force isn't generally questioning of itself and borderline agnostic.

EmCeeGrammar

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2011, 02:23:21 PM »
faith itself is not a fallacious concept -- we are not omniscient creatures. putting one foot in front of the other every day are little acts of faith: faith that the ground is there as our eyes perceive it, faith that there are no hazards or pitfalls that could kill us. faith is a necessary transactional element of consciousness and our exceedingly finite capacity to know and experience our world as our limited senses permit.

Kinda like what Stoney said, these things are learned behaviors through reptition.  Babies have to learn through trial and error and reptition what works and what doesn't.  The only thing that could be constituted as faith is that the laws of the universe aren't going to change any of their constants.

Hell, I don't necessarily believe that as concrete either. 
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Groogrux

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2011, 07:03:27 PM »
One thing that I can't say that I've ever understood, when it comes to religion talks, are atheists that try so hard to disprove people of other beliefs.  It's like they just find it unacceptable that anyone believe in a god because they don't, and they're easily offended when somebody responds to something they say that is contrary to what they think.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's admirable that some of them put so much time in to researching why they don't believe in a god.  That doesn't mean the rest of us have to log as many hours as they do about why we DO believe in a god.  Faith in a god is what it is.  Beliefs can be changed or modified as the believer chooses to educate themselves.  The same thing applies for atheists.  Faith in nothing (nothing meaning no god) is what it is. 

We all know that organized religion is a sham.  It has been from day one.  Too many people together trying to make a god out of what they believe is right will never work, and inevitably somebody will be put into that system and allowed to make changes with other motives (money, sex, power) than what is in the best interest of that religious system.

At the end of the day, the one thing that I have to ask is this:  If I'm wrong and the atheists are right; when I die what does it matter?  If I'm wrong, I will die and that will be the end of it one day.  I still live a good moral life, I don't break any major laws, and nobody gets hurt because of me.

tl;dr version: Why so serious?
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fistfulofmetal

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2011, 07:06:07 PM »
because i'm intelligent.
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Groogrux

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2011, 07:10:43 PM »
So you would say that every person on the planet who believes in a higher being is unintelligent because they don't believe what you do?

I'm withdrawing from the conversation, simply because I don't want to be labeled as that guy.  I accept your troll for a slap in the face at my intelligence, and I walk away.

I say good day sir.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 07:14:12 PM by andrwfields »
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Stoney Mason

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2011, 07:42:58 PM »
One thing that I can't say that I've ever understood, when it comes to religion talks, are atheists that try so hard to disprove people of other beliefs. 

I don't think this happens (or that it happens in the volume you may think it does). It especially doesn't happen in the real world where religious people outnumber atheists by an insane factor and atheists have relative little power or influence in mainstream culture. And in this particular thread, the people who are assholes are assholes in general on the board. Has nothing to do with atheism. They are the same in any other thread.

Atheists are like libertarians (only in this sense thank god) that they are over-represented on the internet compared to real life.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 07:47:02 PM by Stoney Mason »

Human Snorenado

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2011, 08:41:12 PM »
Generally speaking, I don't BELIEVE anything.  Beliefs tend to be irrational at their core; I prefer to think about things and develop ideas.  Ideas are a lot easier to change if new information comes to light than beliefs.
yar

EmCeeGrammar

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2011, 10:30:08 PM »
One thing that I can't say that I've ever understood, when it comes to religion talks, are atheists that try so hard to disprove people of other beliefs.  It's like they just find it unacceptable that anyone believe in a god because they don't, and they're easily offended when somebody responds to something they say that is contrary to what they think.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's admirable that some of them put so much time in to researching why they don't believe in a god.  That doesn't mean the rest of us have to log as many hours as they do about why we DO believe in a god.  Faith in a god is what it is.  Beliefs can be changed or modified as the believer chooses to educate themselves.  The same thing applies for atheists.  Faith in nothing (nothing meaning no god) is what it is. 

We all know that organized religion is a sham.  It has been from day one.  Too many people together trying to make a god out of what they believe is right will never work, and inevitably somebody will be put into that system and allowed to make changes with other motives (money, sex, power) than what is in the best interest of that religious system.

At the end of the day, the one thing that I have to ask is this:  If I'm wrong and the atheists are right; when I die what does it matter?  If I'm wrong, I will die and that will be the end of it one day.  I still live a good moral life, I don't break any major laws, and nobody gets hurt because of me.

tl;dr version: Why so serious?

That's all fine and dandy, duder. IRL I don't pursue the topic with people who are religous. I am very apathetic about religion at this point and there's no point trying to convince people not to practice circular logic.

NEVERTHELESS

You don't need religion to be moral and live a good life. Subscribing to irrational beliefs sets a precedent for others (such as children) that its okay to believe in stuff because it makes you feel good, despite the lack of evidence.  I would prefer to live in a culture that values rational actions and attitudes. 
sad

Cormacaroni

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2011, 11:14:12 PM »
One thing that I can't say that I've ever understood, when it comes to religion talks, are atheists that try so hard to disprove people of other beliefs.  It's like they just find it unacceptable that anyone believe in a god because they don't, and they're easily offended when somebody responds to something they say that is contrary to what they think.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's admirable that some of them put so much time in to researching why they don't believe in a god.  That doesn't mean the rest of us have to log as many hours as they do about why we DO believe in a god.  Faith in a god is what it is.  Beliefs can be changed or modified as the believer chooses to educate themselves.  The same thing applies for atheists.  Faith in nothing (nothing meaning no god) is what it is. 

We all know that organized religion is a sham.  It has been from day one.  Too many people together trying to make a god out of what they believe is right will never work, and inevitably somebody will be put into that system and allowed to make changes with other motives (money, sex, power) than what is in the best interest of that religious system.

At the end of the day, the one thing that I have to ask is this:  If I'm wrong and the atheists are right; when I die what does it matter?  If I'm wrong, I will die and that will be the end of it one day.  I still live a good moral life, I don't break any major laws, and nobody gets hurt because of me.

tl;dr version: Why so serious?

Because of the huge harm religion does to society. It's pretty fuckin' serious, and you can't disclaim responsibility for an organization that you are part of. If your church is impeding scientific progress, or preaching hatred or discrimination of minorities, or taking money from worthier charities, or passively condoning child abuse by its members etc etc etc, you cannot hide under the protective umbrella of 'BUT I practice it in a different way'. Your participation fuels these ills. The less religion in the world, the better civilization will be.

(Yeah I'm reading Christopher Hitchens right now. Can you tell? :lol)
vjj

Smooth Groove

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2011, 11:36:48 PM »
Which religion lets people fuck with the least amount of guilt?

Cormacaroni

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2011, 11:40:08 PM »
Mormonism? Scientology?
vjj

EmCeeGrammar

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2011, 11:41:26 PM »
Hawaiians had a promiscuous religion. World's greatest tragedy they got subjugated.
sad

naff

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2011, 12:43:20 AM »
I find fanatics of any kind pretty frustrating, atheists, religiotards, sfags etc. Can't they all just stfu? I find it incredibly arrogant that average people purport to KNOW there is no god/is a god. As far as I'm concerned science does as much to disprove the concept of god(s) as the bible does to prove it. Any human claiming to know either way is taking a leap of faith. On the other hand, I think modern organised religion serves no greater purpose than to spread ignorance and hate and it's positive aspects are far outweighed by it's negatives, I also find it hard to believe that any religions notion of god is anywhere near what the reality would be if the truth was revealed to us. Whereas the scientific community, while also responsible for many modern atrocities, is actually working towards exploring and defining our universe in a constructive manner. Not just 'wait until the judgement, then you will know!', 'looks at that, IT'S A SIGN, GOD IS REAL1'...
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Cormacaroni

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2011, 12:46:20 AM »
sorry, the Bible does something to prove the existence of God? Gotta hear this one.
vjj

naff

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2011, 12:55:57 AM »
What does science do to disprove there is some sort of higher being/universal consciousness which has power over the building blocks of matter and used them to shape the universe we live in?

Point was science can't disprove it as much as the bible can prove it. And while I think science is (edit :lol) infinitely more logical than any religion much of what science understands about the universe is based on assumptions and when you get down to the fabric of our universe scientists are basically stumped, there are phenomena physicists cannot explain and questions that cannot be answered by science... At the moment
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 01:51:15 AM by quietID »
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Cormacaroni

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2011, 01:43:03 AM »
What science can or cannot disprove has no bearing whatsoever on your point about the Bible proving the existence of God! There is no SHRED of scientific evidence in the Bible to support the existence of God, despite all the things that God, Jesus etc supposedly did. Giving the slightest credence to this is an insult to rational thinking everywhere.  The existence of unexplained phenomena doesn't invalidate the scientific process in the least.

Also what on earth does 'infantesimally' mean?

vjj

naff

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2011, 02:02:19 AM »
Also what on earth does 'infantesimally' mean?

Um. I have a tendency to make up words sometimes? :lol smh

You're nitpicking my point that there is no evidence of either the existence or non-existence of a god-like being. Obviously the bible could never prove the existence of god, whereas scienctists are constantly discovering and proving new things, I'm not insulting science or saying in any way anything about scientific processes being invalidated :lol
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 02:03:52 AM by quietID »
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Cormacaroni

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2011, 02:03:37 AM »
OK, I'm nitpicking but it's a pretty fuckin' big point!
vjj

EmCeeGrammar

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2011, 07:19:02 AM »
I could spend an indefinite amount of time making up fairy tale monsters with weird qualifications for why they can't be observed directly.  If anyone questions whether they exist I could just as easily say they can't be proven to be made up fairy tale monsters that are always invisible.  It's a faulty line of reasoning.  We don't prove/test negatives.
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Cormacaroni

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2011, 07:34:20 AM »
And if I were of a religious bent, I might just take your word that they DO exist, and start incorporating them into my own little system of morality, conduct and fear management.

If I were of a scientific/rational bent, I might however ask you a series of questions, the answers to which gradually reduce the possibility that these things might exist down to the vanishingly small, then proceed with my life undisturbed by your bizarre fantasies.

vjj

EmCeeGrammar

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2011, 08:30:09 AM »
I hope your agreeing with me. I have a hard time telling sometimes.
sad

Stoney Mason

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2011, 10:37:40 AM »
I'm an atheist and I definitely can get down and dirty with it sometimes about the effect religion is having in certain areas. I won't shy away from what I perceive, is often a negative effect it has in many cases.

That being said, I also try to understand religion and people and why they want it. I get it. I get the afterlife thing. And even more importantly I get the community thing. I get that religion and churches provide a connecting community tissue that often doesn't really exist in many other formats. It's socially acceptable in a way that other gatherings simply are not.

More importantly its not going away any time soon. So that's why I think the secular thing is more important. The discussion of whether god(s) exist or not in comparison is almost rather boring or at least less important than secular debates and how we achieve a better balance of religion and private life and the public sphere.

Skidmark

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2011, 03:19:01 PM »
Before you jump too far ahead of yourself,  I'll tell you two things:

(1st) I believe that science supports God, and vice versa.  I work in the medical field, and I see this evidence supported every day. 

(2nd) Some of my best friends are athiests and agnostics.  I've sat and had a lot of discussions with them about faith and God.  You probably won't have a whole lot to say that will shock and awe me.

Now, I am curious as to what answers or explanations you want to give me?  If you are talking about something like creation, for instance, then I should tell you that any person can clearly see that the story of Adam and Eve is not the end-all-be-all for how it all started.

I could have worded what I wanted to say much better so I apologize for that.

My first question is: If you were to come across or be provided with better answers and explanations to your experiences, existence and morals. Would you still stick to your belief in the Christian God? or would be willing to take the risk and drop the belief?

My second question is: What makes an answer good according to you? what criteria must an answer fulfill in order for it to be considered a satisfying answer by you?
for example, must it give purpose or meaning to your life? when practiced, does the total outcome have to be positive for society as a whole? does it have to come from authority? does it have to come from tradition? or does it all just come down to what we know today to be true or as close to the truth as possible?

I am not claiming to have access to knowledge that you or anyone else doesn't have, I am also not claiming that you can't work in the scientific field simply because you are religious as if it is a disability.

My understanding when it comes to science is that it doesn't support the existence of a God, it doesn't rule out the existence of a God but it certainly doesn't support it either. However, when you talk about a god that intervenes with whats going on it our universe then things will get much trickier for you to support your claim. 

Now since everyone is talking about atheists being rude and so on I will just let you now that this is not me attacking you or your belief, thats just how discussions work, you don't have to answer if you don't want to.

Stoney Mason

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2011, 03:21:27 PM »
What a rude response from skidmark. You are an asshole sir!


Cormacaroni

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2011, 09:54:43 PM »
Quote
Now, I am curious as to what answers or explanations you want to give me?  If you are talking about something like creation, for instance, then I should tell you that any person can clearly see that the story of Adam and Eve is not the end-all-be-all for how it all started.

How then can you justify perpetrating this? Any faith which doesn't renounce these primitive creation myths in the face of evidence for the age of the universe etc is literally retarding society, in my opinion. Regardless of whether educated / intelligent folks can see through it or not - religion is inflicted upon the least educated and able among us by the castes that make it their living.
vjj

Stoney Mason

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2011, 10:05:40 PM »
Quote
Now, I am curious as to what answers or explanations you want to give me?  If you are talking about something like creation, for instance, then I should tell you that any person can clearly see that the story of Adam and Eve is not the end-all-be-all for how it all started.

How then can you justify perpetrating this? Any faith which doesn't renounce these primitive creation myths in the face of evidence for the age of the universe etc is literally retarding society, in my opinion. Regardless of whether educated / intelligent folks can see through it or not - religion is inflicted upon the least educated and able among us by the castes that make it their living.

The thing is a lot of them do. Unfortunately a lot of them don't also. They speak as if the bible is literal truth rather than stories to illuminate a point. And adam and Eve were real people.

That's my whole problem with the big three religions. Take Jesus. Cool dude. Lots of good messages. Isn't enough that he's just a cool dude and we follow his example like we should any cool peace loving dude. Why does the connection have to be supernatural? I know the answer to this specific question but it saddens me.

Cormacaroni

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2011, 11:45:11 PM »
Right, and we can see it happening with every other public figure of high morals and a high Q rating, like Gandhi or MLK. People of lesser worth try to hitch a ride and start using that mindshare for their own ends. Ultimately to me it doesn't matter whether a religion actually seriously pushes their creation myth or just allows it to stay out there and doesn't really expect people to take it seriously. As long they are not saying, fuck it, we don't know, let's get to work on FINDING OUT, they're part of the problem in my book.

(not that everyone has to be investigating the mysteries of quantum physics or I will hunt them down, far from it. You just have to not actively stand in the way of intellectual and social advancement of our whole species)
vjj

Skidmark

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2011, 07:15:39 AM »
I could spend an indefinite amount of time making up fairy tale monsters with weird qualifications for why they can't be observed directly.  If anyone questions whether they exist I could just as easily say they can't be proven to be made up fairy tale monsters that are always invisible.  It's a faulty line of reasoning.  We don't prove/test negatives.
At this point the hypothesis is not testable. There is no point in continuing to study it, the question might however divert into why it is necessary to accept it or what good can come from accepting it, does practicing this belief do any good that can't be achieved without it? does it add anything needed to expand our models of understanding reality? some people can find the case to be so while others don't and I think thats where the majority of us differ when it comes to those kind of questions.

Skidmark

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2011, 08:14:13 AM »
faith itself is not a fallacious concept -- we are not omniscient creatures. putting one foot in front of the other every day are little acts of faith: faith that the ground is there as our eyes perceive it, faith that there are no hazards or pitfalls that could kill us. faith is a necessary transactional element of consciousness and our exceedingly finite capacity to know and experience our world as our limited senses permit. it is not a huge cognitive leap from the little faiths that move us through our day to the big ones of religion.
I am not ruling out the existence of faith in our day to day lives but I think you are magnifying it a bit too much.

What you are talking about is also called inductive and deductive reasoning. for example:
Premise: The sun has risen in the east every morning up until now.
Conclusion: The sun will also rise in the east tomorrow.

The same can be said about taking footsteps, you are not being blind folded and pushed down a step of stairs, your decisions are educated and come from previous observations and trials, you have learned to do this through observations, cause and effect reasoning and comparative reasoning among other kinds of reasoning.

You see others do it when you are a kid, you attempt practicing it when your legs are strong enough to hold your weight, and most importantly you see the evidence and the results, something that you don't do when it comes to faith in a God.

Faith might sound a little bit more poetic but its not faith that makes us walk and put one foot in front of the other, its our reasoning abilities combined with the necessity and the reward of doing so.

Skidmark

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2011, 08:33:55 AM »
At the end of the day, the one thing that I have to ask is this:  If I'm wrong and the atheists are right; when I die what does it matter?  If I'm wrong, I will die and that will be the end of it one day.  I still live a good moral life, I don't break any major laws, and nobody gets hurt because of me.

Morals are not absolute, you are also subscribing to a whole package of believes and rituals that changes the way you live your day to day life, this changes your interpretation of different events and allows your actions to be justified by different bases.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2011, 01:38:37 PM »
faith itself is not a fallacious concept -- we are not omniscient creatures. putting one foot in front of the other every day are little acts of faith: faith that the ground is there as our eyes perceive it, faith that there are no hazards or pitfalls that could kill us. faith is a necessary transactional element of consciousness and our exceedingly finite capacity to know and experience our world as our limited senses permit. it is not a huge cognitive leap from the little faiths that move us through our day to the big ones of religion.
I am not ruling out the existence of faith in our day to day lives but I think you are magnifying it a bit too much.

What you are talking about is also called inductive and deductive reasoning. for example:
Premise: The sun has risen in the east every morning up until now.
Conclusion: The sun will also rise in the east tomorrow.

The same can be said about taking footsteps, you are not being blind folded and pushed down a step of stairs, your decisions are educated and come from previous observations and trials, you have learned to do this through observations, cause and effect reasoning and comparative reasoning among other kinds of reasoning.

You see others do it when you are a kid, you attempt practicing it when your legs are strong enough to hold your weight, and most importantly you see the evidence and the results, something that you don't do when it comes to faith in a God.

Faith might sound a little bit more poetic but its not faith that makes us walk and put one foot in front of the other, its our reasoning abilities combined with the necessity and the reward of doing so.

you can never know that your next step will not be your last -- that the ground will NOT dissolve underfoot. you can be assured of it, of course, but that is faith: assurance, not perfect certainty.

faith is reasoning based on faulty or imperfect data, interpreted to impart a sense of security around the immediately unknowable. what we experience -- the data we accumulate through living -- will always be imperfect and flawed, because it is derived through our limited senses and perceptions, as well as our limited ability to interpret our own past through recall. (after all, it is very hard to scientifically test and verify for what has already occurred, and upon those precepts we attempt to move forward in our lives.)

faith is not a foolish thing when properly applied. it is an acknowledgment of the unknowable and of our own limitations, but that we must move forward nonetheless, assuming where we cannot verify. it is not foolish when it is used in a practical capacity -- to impel us forward believing that the sun will rise, we are still employed at our jobs, our family is still there, and the world has not dramatically changed from the previous day. if we lived every day under the assumption that the future *is* immediately unknowable -- which is actually is -- we would be paralyzed. faith becomes foolish when it does not examine the sum of one's senses and experience, or when it does not examine alternatives, and operates on an irrational base, such as "i am told by many people that the christian god is real, and i feel very strongly that he must be because of a specific moment in my life," which demonstrates a faith predicated not on observable patterns and/or self-knowledge (the function that corrects and averages the sum of our experience) but on social memetics and (often willful) self-ignorance.

that said, the wisdom of the atheist or the agnostic comes NOT from the reverence of the dogma that is the scientific method (despite its overall worthiness as a strategy), but from the acknowledgment that we are fundamentally limited in our senses and recall, and that our realities are tapestries fabricated by these limitations (to put a lame poetic twist on it) AND that we must be forever doubting, questioning, and exploring if we are to maximize our lives. then, knowing that we operate on faith, and understanding its role in our lives, and struggling to understand it, we can also eject it when it fails to provide a practical answer -- and the practical answer to "why do i do anything if it's all unknowable to me" is not "LOL GOD!" but "because i am what i am, and i must move forward," and to have faith in your own essential nature as not just a human being, but in your own self and the product of your eminently fallible senses and recall -- and that you continue to test and observe and doubt and question in order to COMPENSATE for the nature of faith itself and its necessity in your existence.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 01:41:13 PM by Van Cruncheon »
duc

Dickie Dee

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2011, 03:04:44 PM »
[youtube=560,345][/youtube]

^^^
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Skidmark

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2011, 07:47:11 PM »
you can never know that your next step will not be your last -- that the ground will NOT dissolve underfoot. you can be assured of it, of course, but that is faith: assurance, not perfect certainty.

faith is reasoning based on faulty or imperfect data, interpreted to impart a sense of security around the immediately unknowable. what we experience -- the data we accumulate through living -- will always be imperfect and flawed, because it is derived through our limited senses and perceptions, as well as our limited ability to interpret our own past through recall. (after all, it is very hard to scientifically test and verify for what has already occurred, and upon those precepts we attempt to move forward in our lives.)

faith is not a foolish thing when properly applied. it is an acknowledgment of the unknowable and of our own limitations, but that we must move forward nonetheless, assuming where we cannot verify. it is not foolish when it is used in a practical capacity -- to impel us forward believing that the sun will rise, we are still employed at our jobs, our family is still there, and the world has not dramatically changed from the previous day. if we lived every day under the assumption that the future *is* immediately unknowable -- which is actually is -- we would be paralyzed. faith becomes foolish when it does not examine the sum of one's senses and experience, or when it does not examine alternatives, and operates on an irrational base, such as "i am told by many people that the christian god is real, and i feel very strongly that he must be because of a specific moment in my life," which demonstrates a faith predicated not on observable patterns and/or self-knowledge (the function that corrects and averages the sum of our experience) but on social memetics and (often willful) self-ignorance.

that said, the wisdom of the atheist or the agnostic comes NOT from the reverence of the dogma that is the scientific method (despite its overall worthiness as a strategy), but from the acknowledgment that we are fundamentally limited in our senses and recall, and that our realities are tapestries fabricated by these limitations (to put a lame poetic twist on it) AND that we must be forever doubting, questioning, and exploring if we are to maximize our lives. then, knowing that we operate on faith, and understanding its role in our lives, and struggling to understand it, we can also eject it when it fails to provide a practical answer -- and the practical answer to "why do i do anything if it's all unknowable to me" is not "LOL GOD!" but "because i am what i am, and i must move forward," and to have faith in your own essential nature as not just a human being, but in your own self and the product of your eminently fallible senses and recall -- and that you continue to test and observe and doubt and question in order to COMPENSATE for the nature of faith itself and its necessity in your existence.

I am not really sure about this but I hope you realize that a decent amount of our knowledge comes from deductive reasoning. In Chemistry, every time we mix chemical A with chemical B we get chemical C, and every time we do so we get the same result. although we don't know what the future holds for us this allows us to accept that A+B=C. What assures us that the next time we mix A with B and get C is the past experiences and not faith.
Proof of that is if we have done this experiment a billion times we would be better assured and more certain and confident than when we have done it only twice.

When choosing a site for a building its our knowledge of the physical properties of the soil that allow us to make the decision. We have a look at the different possibilities and their probabilities, weigh the risks and the reward and then make an educated decision and not a faith based decision.

You can still insist that all of those are acts of faith but faith is simply not part of the equation, you can also say that faith is what makes us wake up in the morning or faith is what allows to be kind to one another but you can just as well replace faith with hope, love, motivation, optimism and you will end up with something just as meaningless.

brawndolicious

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2011, 05:40:38 AM »
you can never know that your next step will not be your last -- that the ground will NOT dissolve underfoot. you can be assured of it, of course, but that is faith: assurance, not perfect certainty.

faith is reasoning based on faulty or imperfect data, interpreted to impart a sense of security around the immediately unknowable. what we experience -- the data we accumulate through living -- will always be imperfect and flawed, because it is derived through our limited senses and perceptions, as well as our limited ability to interpret our own past through recall. (after all, it is very hard to scientifically test and verify for what has already occurred, and upon those precepts we attempt to move forward in our lives.)

faith is not a foolish thing when properly applied. it is an acknowledgment of the unknowable and of our own limitations, but that we must move forward nonetheless, assuming where we cannot verify. it is not foolish when it is used in a practical capacity -- to impel us forward believing that the sun will rise, we are still employed at our jobs, our family is still there, and the world has not dramatically changed from the previous day. if we lived every day under the assumption that the future *is* immediately unknowable -- which is actually is -- we would be paralyzed. faith becomes foolish when it does not examine the sum of one's senses and experience, or when it does not examine alternatives, and operates on an irrational base, such as "i am told by many people that the christian god is real, and i feel very strongly that he must be because of a specific moment in my life," which demonstrates a faith predicated not on observable patterns and/or self-knowledge (the function that corrects and averages the sum of our experience) but on social memetics and (often willful) self-ignorance.

that said, the wisdom of the atheist or the agnostic comes NOT from the reverence of the dogma that is the scientific method (despite its overall worthiness as a strategy), but from the acknowledgment that we are fundamentally limited in our senses and recall, and that our realities are tapestries fabricated by these limitations (to put a lame poetic twist on it) AND that we must be forever doubting, questioning, and exploring if we are to maximize our lives. then, knowing that we operate on faith, and understanding its role in our lives, and struggling to understand it, we can also eject it when it fails to provide a practical answer -- and the practical answer to "why do i do anything if it's all unknowable to me" is not "LOL GOD!" but "because i am what i am, and i must move forward," and to have faith in your own essential nature as not just a human being, but in your own self and the product of your eminently fallible senses and recall -- and that you continue to test and observe and doubt and question in order to COMPENSATE for the nature of faith itself and its necessity in your existence.

I am not really sure about this but I hope you realize that a decent amount of our knowledge comes from deductive reasoning. In Chemistry, every time we mix chemical A with chemical B we get chemical C, and every time we do so we get the same result. although we don't know what the future holds for us this allows us to accept that A+B=C. What assures us that the next time we mix A with B and get C is the past experiences and not faith.
Proof of that is if we have done this experiment a billion times we would be better assured and more certain and confident than when we have done it only twice.

Chemists are more concerned with how the electrons move around and make the new bonds, what you're describing is basically alchemy where there's just trial & error.  The problem is that even if you come up with a mechanism, you'd have no idea how likely that mechanism is to take place over other side reactions so that is why for example it is pretty hard to make a decent estimate of how much product you will yield when looking at a unique combination of reactants and conditions.  I'm saying this because it seems to go to prole's point about how we may have enough reference points to predict how some things will work, but we can't say for sure how anything definitely works.

Faith is basically a philosophy of defining the validity of all your observations since you need some philosophy to process them all through.  That's not to say that there is a perfect system that can give us the right answer in anything scientific, just predictions.  Your philosophy could be related to brain chemistry or upbringing.  I think anything from using the scientific method to believing in a supernatural creator to having serious obsessive compulsive disorder in all your daily actions requires a large amount of faith.

Maximus

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #58 on: January 23, 2011, 03:09:33 PM »
Right, and we can see it happening with every other public figure of high morals and a high Q rating, like Gandhi or MLK. People of lesser worth try to hitch a ride and start using that mindshare for their own ends. Ultimately to me it doesn't matter whether a religion actually seriously pushes their creation myth or just allows it to stay out there and doesn't really expect people to take it seriously. As long they are not saying, fuck it, we don't know, let's get to work on FINDING OUT, they're part of the problem in my book.

(not that everyone has to be investigating the mysteries of quantum physics or I will hunt them down, far from it. You just have to not actively stand in the way of intellectual and social advancement of our whole species)

Can I take a wee guess about you Cormac? Were you raised in Northern Ireland, under a typical Catholic family, went to typical Catholic school where the priest would come in and the teacher would act as he was the second coming of Christ. There was a general consensus if something felt good it was bad, and a general consensus in the community that alien things like drugs were the worst thing in the world, more so even than protestants.
Its just a guess, I could be way off the mark.

Himu

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Re: Religion Thread 2: Why do you believe what you do?
« Reply #59 on: January 23, 2011, 03:58:38 PM »
I wanna be like you when I grow up, Prole.
IYKYK