Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire discussion (Read 51676 times)

chronovore · « **Reply #180 on:** April 02, 2014, 07:13:43 AM »

Quote from: Damian79 on April 02, 2014, 02:31:43 AM

So is Tyrion an antihero or not? My friend refuses to accept that he is an anti hero, citing batman as the prototype anti hero. Sigh.

Your friend is wrong; Batman is a hero, not an antihero. There's just about no definition of "antihero" which would describe Batman.

My knowledge of Tyrion is quite limited; I never finished the first book, and have only seen two seasons of the show. With those caveats in mind, Tyrion shows aspects of being an antihero but, as a Lannister, would more reasonably categorized as a heroic villain. Tyrion takes risks for other people, has a strong morale code to which he adheres, and can be altruistic.

Popular media examples of antiheroes would be Han Solo, The Dark Tower's Roland, and comics' John Constantine.

Edit: I'm currently reading John Steakley's Armor; there are two separate threads in the novel, but the protagonist of each Jack Crow and Felix, are each definitively anti-heroes.

Diunx · « **Reply #181 on:** April 03, 2014, 01:29:50 AM »

Quote from: Damian79 on April 02, 2014, 02:31:43 AM

So is Tyrion an antihero or not? My friend refuses to accept that he is an anti hero, citing batman as the prototype anti hero. Sigh.

Tyrion is a murdering cunt like the rest of westeros, but he is a funny one.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #182 on:** April 03, 2014, 10:17:55 AM »

Quote from: Formerly Known As Himuro on April 01, 2014, 02:21:26 PM

I seem to be the only one not reading preview chapters?

Nope, I haven't ready any either.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #183 on:** April 19, 2014, 11:59:49 PM »

Here's the chapter that was released a couple months ago, just realized no one posted it here.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tyrion II
http://pastebay.net/1413178

[close]

yea...TWOW is going to be insane.

Diunx · « **Reply #184 on:** May 05, 2014, 12:12:42 AM »

Any spoilers in tonight's episode?

ZephyrFate · « **Reply #185 on:** May 05, 2014, 12:16:55 AM »

nope pretty standard

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #186 on:** January 02, 2016, 10:48:02 AM »

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

PD, come get your L

Bebpo · « **Reply #187 on:** January 02, 2016, 12:18:33 PM »

;_;

So this confirms the plan was to get it out before S6.

I really don't care how long he takes to release the book, I just want it to be good. I'm a bit worried that stressing to meet deadlines may have impacted the quality of the writing. Hopefully it's good.

That brings me to my 2nd concern, that GRRM doesn't know what he's doing with the book and that's why it's taking him so long and the quality is gonna have issues like the last two books. You'd think if he had a plan and stuff was going well he'd be able to make deadlines or at least feel more positive about the state of the book. So his overall mood is kind of concerning.

But yeah, I skipped S5 of the tv show and I'll skip S6 and however many seasons are left until the last books come out and then watch them after it's all over. Will try to avoid spoilers from the tv show for the next six years but who knows how well that'll go, but I ain't gonna stress over it.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #188 on:** January 02, 2016, 01:32:06 PM »

It's hard to decide which of AFfC or ADwD is better. Crows is better written, but more interesting characters are in Dragons. Neither one is good overall, though, despite the lies PD is going to tell you when he notices this thread.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #189 on:** January 02, 2016, 01:38:55 PM »

With a heavy heart I take my L from Triumph. You'd think by now I'd avoid that bearded winning mofo like the plague but I keep engaging him in bets and fantasy football. And I cry errytime.

As Bepbo said this confirms they were serious about getting it out before S6. The season has been delayed to late April, making it even easier to release in time. And yet Martin still failed. I could look on the bright side and say 2016 is likely, and the wait still hasn't matched Dance's in terms of time. But nah I'm done folks. Wouldn't be stunned if it didn't come out this year.

It's insane. This upcoming season is going to "spoil" something fans have waited to be confirmed for nearly 20 years. Everyone knows it's coming (i.e. a certain person's parentage reveal), everyone knows what it is...but to have it revealed on the damn show first is pathetic. This is Martin's fault, I have no sympathy. He's the one who refuses to cancel the amount of appearances required to finish this thing. He's the one who keeps accepting offers and deals etc. Read the rest of his recaps btw, they're full of all the stuff he accomplished this year. All the fun he had developing shows and signing deals. Literally the only thing he didn't accomplish was Winds.

El Babua · « **Reply #190 on:** January 02, 2016, 01:47:26 PM »

Martin's tone implies that he's pissed he hasn't finished it himself, but unlike Tom Brady, I don't think anger will improve his performance.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #191 on:** January 02, 2016, 01:51:57 PM »

Tbh, I think that at this point in his life finishing the series is the least important thing in his life, and it shows.

toku · « **Reply #192 on:** January 02, 2016, 02:00:39 PM »

Yeah he even did a cameo on Z Nation brehs. If you want to avoid the show to go into the books blind you gonna be ducking spoilers for years.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #193 on:** January 02, 2016, 02:07:01 PM »

I download the show for my parents. It would be impossible for me not to be spoiled. I'll watch. The show is trash but at least they're clearly going in a different direction with multiple characters.

Not saying he should cancel all his events. But it's clear he can't do 5-7 a year and make progress on the book. If he's gone every couple months he simply doesn't have the time to get in a groove, or to ride it out when he's struggling. He's basically struggling for a month and then going to an event. Then he comes back swamped with other work, checks his mail, tries to get back to work...and has to leave again in a month.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #194 on:** January 02, 2016, 02:17:40 PM »

Let's say he can get TWoW done and published by the end of 2016. Which, at this point, I have no faith in and neither should anyone else. But let's say he does.

Even in that case, what we expect to be the final season of the show will begin in less than a year from the book being published. It's entirely possible the show finishes up before TWoW is published, and let's not even talk about A Dream of Summer or whatever he's thinking of calling the last book.

Personally, I think that it's likely the show goes to 8 seasons, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if TWoW isn't published until early 2017. ADoS? Good fucking luck.

Also: the show has gotten increasingly trashy, but again... so did the source material.

nudemacusers · « **Reply #195 on:** January 02, 2016, 02:39:57 PM »

Quote from: Phoenix Dark on January 02, 2016, 01:38:55 PM

With a heavy heart I take my L from Triumph.

Newsfeed pls

But what reveal are you referring to? I'm a lazy casual show watcher.

toku · « **Reply #196 on:** January 02, 2016, 02:40:42 PM »

early access books lmao

Quote from: nudemacusers on January 02, 2016, 02:39:57 PM

Quote from: Phoenix Dark on January 02, 2016, 01:38:55 PM
With a heavy heart I take my L from Triumph.
Newsfeed pls

But what reveal are you referring to? I'm a lazy casual show watcher.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

Jon Snow's parents

[close]

nudemacusers · « **Reply #197 on:** January 02, 2016, 02:57:43 PM »

Freyj · « **Reply #198 on:** January 02, 2016, 03:13:35 PM »

What a fucking joke this series has turned into.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #199 on:** January 02, 2016, 03:21:05 PM »

I'm not even super upset he'll miss the S6 deadline. I'm upset/stunned/amazed that he doesn't even sound semi confident about his progress, especially given the amount of free time he had (his last 2015 event was in late August). If he had said "I'll miss the deadline but I'm feeling good about where I am, I see the finish line etc" I'd have a different reaction. But nah...

He's gonna spend the next few months

2016 is possible but at this point why expect that shit. Don't get your hopes up, expect nothing.

Martin and Rothfuss

Freyj · « **Reply #200 on:** January 02, 2016, 03:27:51 PM »

Wise Man's Fear was bad enough to scare me off of caring about Rothfuss. I guess GRRM hasn't quite done that yet but fuck me.

I need to finish Malazan.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #201 on:** January 02, 2016, 03:42:28 PM »

"We're gonna have so much winning, you'll get sick of it."

Tasty · « **Reply #202 on:** January 02, 2016, 04:21:18 PM »

Quote from: Human Snorenado on January 02, 2016, 10:48:02 AM

http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

PD, come get your L

GRRM uses Livejournal? What the...

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #203 on:** January 02, 2016, 04:27:15 PM »

Quote from: Tasty Meat on January 02, 2016, 04:21:18 PM

Quote from: Human Snorenado on January 02, 2016, 10:48:02 AM
http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

PD, come get your L

GRRM uses Livejournal? What the...

Even funnier: a few days ago he said he wrote a big ass new years post about his progress...but it disappeared from LJ's journal. So the big ass posts he wrote yesterday were him rewriting all the shit he lost due to LJ being trash

Tasty · « **Reply #204 on:** January 02, 2016, 06:35:52 PM »

Quote from: Phoenix Dark on January 02, 2016, 04:27:15 PM

Quote from: Tasty Meat on January 02, 2016, 04:21:18 PM
Quote from: Human Snorenado on January 02, 2016, 10:48:02 AM
http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

PD, come get your L

GRRM uses Livejournal? What the...

Even funnier: a few days ago he said he wrote a big ass new years post about his progress...but it disappeared from LJ's journal. So the big ass posts he wrote yesterday were him rewriting all the shit he lost due to LJ being trash

Holy shit.

I'm not expecting him to use Tumblr, but at least go with something reliable like WordPress or Blogger.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #205 on:** January 02, 2016, 07:01:24 PM »

Quote from: Tasty Meat on January 02, 2016, 06:35:52 PM

Quote from: Phoenix Dark on January 02, 2016, 04:27:15 PM
Quote from: Tasty Meat on January 02, 2016, 04:21:18 PM
Quote from: Human Snorenado on January 02, 2016, 10:48:02 AM
http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html

PD, come get your L

GRRM uses Livejournal? What the...

Even funnier: a few days ago he said he wrote a big ass new years post about his progress...but it disappeared from LJ's journal. So the big ass posts he wrote yesterday were him rewriting all the shit he lost due to LJ being trash

Holy shit.

I'm not expecting him to use Tumblr, but at least go with something reliable like WordPress or Blogger.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/462643.html

Tasty · « **Reply #206 on:** January 02, 2016, 07:10:33 PM »

Current Mood:

frustrated

CatsCatsCats · « **Reply #207 on:** January 02, 2016, 10:31:01 PM »

Sorry guys, TWOW would be done, but LJ lost the first version

toku · « **Reply #208 on:** January 07, 2016, 11:29:50 PM »

studyguy · « **Reply #209 on:** January 08, 2016, 04:16:46 PM »

Have Irish erotic fiction writers taking shots at your slow ass brehs.

http://deadline.com/2016/01/outlander-starz-diana-gabaldon-calls-out-george-rr-martin-over-missed-deadline-tca-1201678526/

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #210 on:** January 08, 2016, 04:19:27 PM »

They're friends.

studyguy · « **Reply #211 on:** January 08, 2016, 04:34:30 PM »

I have no doubt, but all the same

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #212 on:** January 08, 2016, 06:17:02 PM »

btw if you're a nerd about fantasy you should watch this. Martin, Patrick Rothfuss, Joe Abercrombie, and Diana Gabaldon shooting the shit about fantasy and writing.

I don't think Martin being a "slow writer" is the problem. The problem is and has always been his schedule. He is constantly spending more than half the year with events once every other month (or every month). By the time he gets back home, deals with his email/mail/requests/etc, he doesn't have much time to write before heading back on the road. It's a constant interruption on his creative process.

Martin's most recent even was in late August 2015, so he's had quite a bit of time at home to work lately; his next event is in late February.

I don't begrudge Martin for going on a victory lap after releasing ADWD. He earned it. But by 2013 he should have buckled down, cancelled appearances, and started to focus. It was clear after S3 of the show that it had become a pop culture phenomenon. At that point his focus should have been on finishing. You have to get as many books out during the show's run as possible. Once the show ends people will move on. Sure the books will still sell well; they were NY Best Sellers before the show and will be afterward. But once the show ending has been revealed a lot of people are going to inevitably move to other shit.

studyguy · « **Reply #213 on:** January 08, 2016, 06:30:58 PM »

Dude ran a victory lap stopped at the finish line then kicked back for a year. I don't mind years long delays, but he blew up like few fantasy titles have before. There will always be other fantasy titles to look forward to, that's not even a question. The last book was ass compared to what I read in the years that followed, I have no doubt dude will still be laughing by the end of this but he earned the criticism nah. Dude has his habits and that's fine, but he's going through the same cycle every author does between titles with the added weight of an entire HBO fandom on his ass.

Not gonna slob on the dude's nob like ASOIAF isn't just another title in a sea of fantasy books now though after ADWD.

Steve Contra · « **Reply #214 on:** January 08, 2016, 06:31:21 PM »

His problem is he had a roadmap for 3 great books and then didn't know where to go from there so he's clearly winging it now.

Rufus · « **Reply #215 on:** January 08, 2016, 06:42:57 PM »

I think he pretty much admitted to that. Planned trilogy or quadrology, then things got away from him and now he's just parodying himself.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #216 on:** January 08, 2016, 06:49:22 PM »

So many of these for GURM lately

Steve Contra · « **Reply #217 on:** January 08, 2016, 06:50:31 PM »

Thanks god we have the show to wrap this shit up. if the next books are anything like the last two it's a definite pass.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #218 on:** January 08, 2016, 06:58:46 PM »

He had a plan, it didn't work; that's been discussed a million times. ASOS is a clear act break. He wanted to do a 5 year jump afterwards in order to get various pieces where they needed to be, and allow other characters to grow up. It worked for some like Arya (read her TWOW sample chapter), it didn't work for most others like Jon and Cersei. And when he changed everything he couldn't make Dany's shit work at all. IIRC he's said that when he was working on the 5 year gap stuff, Dany's first chapter was her marriage to Hizdar. Quentyn was going to show up on the day of the wedding and the chapter ended with Drogon flying off with her. So the rest would be Quentyn and Barristan dealing with war while Dany did whatever she's going to do with the Dothraki, and presumably afterward she'd be on her way to Westeros.

Ultimately I think he has set up the next book to be pretty explosive, just based off what we know happens including three huge battles (possibly four) within the first half of the book. Ultimately the biggest problem with Dance is Dany. If he found a way to reduce her chapters and bring Barristan to the foreground faster, while leaving enough room for either the north or Meereen battle, I think the book would have been received much better.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #219 on:** January 08, 2016, 07:08:54 PM »

Keep taking this dude at his word

ZephyrFate · « **Reply #220 on:** January 08, 2016, 11:21:22 PM »

i want the winds of winter pls

ZephyrFate · « **Reply #221 on:** January 08, 2016, 11:24:04 PM »

also loved AFFC and ADWD so i enjoy good things

El Babua · « **Reply #222 on:** January 08, 2016, 11:24:54 PM »

Still holding to a late 2016 release.

Not gonna be surprised if it comes out later tho.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #223 on:** January 08, 2016, 11:34:33 PM »

tbh the only part of ADWD I don't really like are Dany's chapters (outside of the last few). Meereen improves the minute Barristan takes over as the pov. Haven't talked to many people who dislike the northern stuff in the book; it's pretty much all good to great, especially Theon's chapters. I thought Tyrion's chapters were fine; I really like Connington, and his POV chapters were good too.

My problem with the book is that it builds up to two big moments - specifically the northern battle(s) and the Meereen battle - and neither appear in the book. To me that's a big problem from a narrative perspective. I understand the excuses given by the editor but come on. At least one battle had to be included.

And of course the other problem is Dany. The various political stuff in the first four books works specifically because it revolves around characters you're familiar with. The Small Council debates how to deal with Robb or what to do about famine issues that you see from Arya's perspective, or how to defend against Stannis etc. Whereas the political stuff in Meereen largely deals with cumbersome foreign families and entities I had little interest in, and it's very repetitive: open the fighting pits, ransom kids from xyz families, fuck Daario, over and over again. I swear Hizdar shows up in like five chapters asking for the fighting pits to be opened, and gets rejected the same way.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #224 on:** January 08, 2016, 11:36:35 PM »

Yeah, Meereen improves at the end of the book

Fucking simps up in here, I swear. Y'all some Fox Mulder level shit with this wanting to believe in GURM when he hasn't written a solid novel in like 15 years.

CatsCatsCats · « **Reply #225 on:** January 09, 2016, 12:15:23 AM »

The story's out there, Snorenado, and I'm gonna write it :grrm

toku · « **Reply #226 on:** January 09, 2016, 12:41:42 AM »

lowkey excited about this season of the show because of that fucking sword block i dont give a fuck hope it has like very less dany too

Bebpo · « **Reply #227 on:** January 09, 2016, 02:32:54 AM »

You guys ever gonna get tired of this circular discussion?

Snorado and contra and a few posters: Feast & Dance sucked lol
PD and me and some posters: nah, they were pretty good lol

a month goes by:

Snorado and contra and a few posters: Feast & Dance sucked lol
PD and me and some posters: nah, they were pretty good lol

etc...

don't really see the point.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #228 on:** January 09, 2016, 02:35:59 AM »

...y'all have shit taste?

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #229 on:** January 09, 2016, 02:41:10 AM »

What did you like about the books? That seems like a new-ish angle. We all know what you didn't like.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #230 on:** January 09, 2016, 02:49:24 AM »

It's been over five years since I read AFfC, so I won't speak on that other than to say my general recollection of it is that it's well written, if dull. The craft is sharp at least.

ADwD... is not a very good book. There's simply no other way to put it. I enjoyed Tyrion's earlier chapters, and I enjoyed the Ser Barrristan viewpoint chapter later in the book when he totally pwns Hizdar's bodyguard. Some of the Arya stuff is alright, too.

Pretty much all of the Jon, Dany, Stannis, Winterfell, Dorne stuff is just awful. As in, poorly conceived, plotted, paced, and written. Some of the King's Landing stuff at the very end is cool, I won't spoil it for those that haven't read it.

A case can be made that AFfC is a very well written but uninteresting book, unless boring minutiae is your cup of tea. ADwD is unquestionably a bad book. You're a stanley if you claim otherwise.

chronovore · « **Reply #231 on:** January 25, 2016, 11:39:11 AM »

Quote from: Bebpo on January 09, 2016, 02:32:54 AM

You guys ever gonna get tired of this circular discussion?

Snorado and contra and a few posters: Feast & Dance sucked lol
PD and me and some posters: nah, they were pretty good lol

a month goes by:

Snorado and contra and a few posters: Feast & Dance sucked lol
PD and me and some posters: nah, they were pretty good lol

etc...

don't really see the point.

I am so happy I abandoned this series after the first book.

Steve Contra · « **Reply #232 on:** January 25, 2016, 01:02:50 PM »

Quote from: Phoenix Dark on January 09, 2016, 02:41:10 AM

What did you like about the books? That seems like a new-ish angle. We all know what you didn't like.

Dorne, Cersei, Arya, Davos.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Pit was awesome but it came after so much bullshit. Dany's ending was great but just because it's hopeful she'll just start killing people and leave the politicking behind.

[close]

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #233 on:** January 26, 2016, 01:08:45 AM »

Quote from: Steve Contra on January 25, 2016, 01:02:50 PM

Quote from: Phoenix Dark on January 09, 2016, 02:41:10 AM
What did you like about the books? That seems like a new-ish angle. We all know what you didn't like.
Dorne, Cersei, Arya, Davos.

spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Pit was awesome but it came after so much bullshit. Dany's ending was great but just because it's hopeful she'll just start killing people and leave the politicking behind.
[close]

She's just a girl, though. I swear to god, her entire arc in ADwD, which PD wants to pretend is a good fucking book, can be summed up by a goddamn 1995 No Doubt song.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #234 on:** January 26, 2016, 01:21:49 AM »

I'd just point out I rarely hear people complain about Dance's northern arcs. I thought they were pretty good, and great in some cases (Reek). I thought the Stannis stuff was great and highlights why he is the best ruler left. Really liked the northern conspiracy shit, from Manderly to the deaths within Winterfell. IMO the northern stuff, specifically the upcoming battle, is my most anticipated Winds storyline. Coming in second would be Davos' journey to Skagos.

Feast and Dance are really about Jon, Dany, and Cersei; their positions of power and how they handle it. I really liked seeing Cersei fuck up, it was entertaining. I liked Jon's arc because he does some things that make a lot of sense and some that don't make any fucking sense at all. But the Dany arc is just baffling. She basically delays a bunch of decisions, then makes bad decisions, then disappears. All while surrounded by foreign names and characters no one cares about. Thank god for Barristan...

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #235 on:** January 26, 2016, 01:52:22 AM »

I don't even think about Winds anymore. I used to go to the ASOIAF Reddit weekly and talk about theories. I'm done with that shit. Dance definitely spawned a lot of great theories and discussions but I'm tired of it now.

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #236 on:** January 26, 2016, 01:54:27 AM »

Ignoring for a second your terrible taste, Walrus, the fact that "it's 80% of a great book" is Martin's biggest problem: he has no discipline, and he's too big and important for anyone to bring him to task. His "editor" is a joke, she can't reign him in and doesn't bother to try. Any serious attempt at ADwD edited by a real, actual editor would have produced a complete novel and not this 80% BS you're touting. There was so much in that book he could have cut that wasn't integral it's not even funny. Literally ANYTHING replacing most of the Dany chapters would have been an improvement, and the same can be said for the latter half of Tyrion's chapters.

But, y'all wanna suck his dick and stan for his world building. That's obvious. At that point, most of 5 books into a 7 book series, you shouldn't be doing any more world building. That's a failure on his part. He should be setting the stage for the endgame. Martin is a longwinded blowhard with poor discipline. Good luck refuting that, cause it's a fact.

ZephyrFate · « **Reply #237 on:** January 28, 2016, 08:53:19 AM »

fucking hell you're annoying.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #238 on:** January 28, 2016, 10:44:28 AM »

BTW one of the big reasons Joe Abercrombie is so good is because he's not really the traditional world building obsessive. He pulled a map out his ass, came up with some interesting enough ideas/settings, and let his characters do the heavy lifting from beginning to end.

I think Martin has created an amazing world but I really don't think there's much need or time for more world building. TBH the only thing I want to know more about is the Citadel, which we'll get in Sam's TWOW chapters. I could see that being world building mixed with advancing the plot (why is Jaqen there, are the maesters plotting against Dany, how to stop the Others, etc).

Human Snorenado · « **Reply #239 on:** January 28, 2016, 01:20:28 PM »

Quote from: ZephyrFate on January 28, 2016, 08:53:19 AM

fucking hell you're annoying.

High praise, considering the source

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Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire discussion (Read 51676 times)