Braveheart>Kingdom of Heaven

[Phoenix Dark]

According to the critics, universally.

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1065684-braveheart/
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/kingdom_of_heaven/

But is it a better movie? This is the question that popped up in my head shortly after starting to watch this two and a half hour epic. Normally I love these kinds of movies; to me it's pretty hard to fuck up swords, warriors, princesses, etc (see: Eragon, Princess Bride). So obviously I went into this thinking that Kingdom of Heaven would be pretty awesome. Not only does it have swords, warriors, and princesses, it also has Orlando Bloom


HELL YES

and Jeremy Irons


HELL YES x10

and Liam Neeson


HELL YES

The movie certainly looks good. The cinematography is simply stunning, and it captures the beautiful  scenery in the movie quite nicely. The art direction/costumes/etc is also very well done; it's clear that the movie tries really hard to be historically accurate in this area.

And with all this badass-ery you'd expect an awesome movie am I rite?


Incorrect


To the contrary, Kingdom of Heaven is a boring, over the top example of an epic gone wrong. On nearly every level the movie fails to make any mark whatsoever.

Quite early it's pretty clear that the acting and writing must not have been important to the film's creators. With the exception of a few good preformances (Irons) the acting is phoned in with little to no charisma or interest. On the other hand Braveheart features a lot of hammy/cheesy preformances; but at least they're rousing at various points. Kingdom of Heaven instead opts to skip the very basics of what makes a movie good.

It's pretty hard to write a bad epic movie. Yet here, the lines are extremely lackluster and dull. Nothing stands out. I'm a sucker for emotional speeches in movies; 90% of the time I love them, ESPECIALLY in movies like this. But here the speeches are so lifeless - in part due to poor acting and weak writing - that they cannot stand up to the great speeches in movie past.




Well since the writing and acting were clearly not important to the movie's creators, and this is Ridley Scott afterall...it must have kickass action and battle scenes right?


Incorrect

The action is over produced and over the top to ridiculous proportions. Scoot tries to use many of the same effects from his previous movies like Gladiator in Kingdom of Heaven, but they simply do not translate well at all. The slow motion, bullet time (well, arrow time) effects simply don't belong in historical epics, which is what Kingdom of Heaven pretends to be. Nothing seems intimate or sincere about the battles; instead it seems like they are made to look as pretty as the movie's lead actor. Well, there was nothing pretty about the Crusades. For all its flaws, Braveheart got this notion down quite well. The battles in that movie are viseral, brutal, and well shot. Slow motion effects work well in small scale battles, like in Gladiator, but here it doesn't fit. Not with this many people.

In the end it's not hard for me to see why this movie was universally panned and did poorly at the boxoffice. The genre of historical epics is filled with classic movies such as Spacticus, Ben Hurr, and Conan  the Barbarian; the bar is set pretty high. Sadly Kingdom of Heaven's overproduced bombast weighs it down so much that it simply cannot reach the bar. It gets the fundementals wrong, and no amount of technological brilliance can overcome this. I like Bloom, but he simply cannot carry a two and a half hour movie. He seems best when he's complimenting the lead actor (Depp, Rush, Mortensen, etc) instead of being the lead actor.

5/10

[The Fake Shemp]

The Director's Cut is an excellent movie and almost universally beloved.

[Cheebs]

PD you fool. Rotten Tomatoes reviews all reviewed the NON-Director's cut. There isnt a soul defending the theatrical cut.

Which verison did you "review"? 

General consensus is theatrical KoH sucks, director's cut of KoH is one of the greatest epics of all time.

[Phoenix Dark]

I couldn't find the DC. And if the DC features more of the same horrible acting and lackluster writing it's probably not much better.

There were definitely clear signs throughout the movie that parts were missing. But that didn't upset me nearly as much as the problems I metioned.

[Van Cruncheon]

PD fails at cinema AGAIN

[Cheebs]

I couldn't find the DC. And if the DC features more of the same horrible acting and lackluster writing it's probably not much better.

Think for a second, the theatrical cut is hated while the director's cut is considered one of the greatest epics of all time.

You think all the DC is is "more of the same"? 

Please delete this topic PD, reviewing the theatrical cut is a embaresment to yourself. Havent you read GAF or EB? Everyone warned agaisnt the theatrical cut of KoH saying it was very bad. Yet you RENTED it?

[Phoenix Dark]

Where's this universal acclaim for the DC? I don't see it, except for on message boards which is a bad sign. Unless the DC cuts out 90% of what I saw, it can't be better. In fact, it's probably more of the same, plus another hour. NO THANKS

[The Fake Shemp]

Yeah, this just reeks of stupidity.  Nobody like the theatrical release, save for maybe Error Macro, and everyone has raved about the Director's Cut.

Don't blame us for your incompetence.

[Himu]

Directors Cut is really that much of an improvement? Wow. Because the theatrical version was boring as shit.

[Cheebs]

Where's this universal acclaim for the DC? I don't see it, except for on message boards which is a bad sign.

Uh, you didn't look far then.

[Phoenix Dark]

Yeah, this just reeks of stupidity.  Nobody like the theatrical release, save for maybe Error Macro, and everyone has raved about the Director's Cut.

Don't blame us for your incompetence.

Where is this raving praise? Show me, oh great one.

I certainly have no interest in seeing an even longer version of this movie, which gets the very fundementals wrong. Do you honestly think I'm stupid enough to believe poor acting and writing can be saved by a DC? I'M NO FOOL

[Van Cruncheon]

I hated the TC. I loved the DC. It's a perfect study in the degree of control the director exerts over the quality of the final product.

[Phoenix Dark]

I hated the TC. I loved the DC. It's a perfect study in the degree of control the director exerts over the quality of the final product.

Ha, tell me about it

In all his brilliance Scott should have reminded Eva Green to remember her accent, which was so inconsistant it was laughable. Controll indeed

[Cheebs]

Yeah, this just reeks of stupidity.  Nobody like the theatrical release, save for maybe Error Macro, and everyone has raved about the Director's Cut.

Don't blame us for your incompetence.

Where is this raving praise? Show me, oh great one.

It wasn't in theaters so these are all dvd reviews but have fun:

The addition of 45 minutes help transform 'Kingdom of Heaven' from a muddled mess into a worthy epic

-Zap2it

The theatrical cut has many problems story-wise, including a lack of character depth and motivation, a lack of subtle intrigue, a number of plot events that seem to unfold with unrealistic ease or speed, etc.

This, at long last, is Kingdom of Heaven  as it was meant to be seen. It is finally a great film - the film Ridley Scott fans wanted and hoped it would be when they first saw it in theaters. It's worthy of inclusion among the director's best works (Blade Runner, Alien, Gladiator and Black Hawk Down)

- The Digital Bits

The theatrical cut of Kingdom of Heaven is a technically impressive epic, devoid of soul and a cohesive narrative.

Put simply, Kingdom of Heaven[Director's Cut] is a masterpiece of filmmaking that has been restored to its proper glory. Ridley Scott's big dream is no longer a nightmare.

-DVD Talk

I hated the TC. I loved the DC. It's a perfect study in the degree of control the director exerts over the quality of the final product.

Ha, tell me about it

In all his brilliance Scott should have reminded Eva Green to remember her accent, which was so inconsistant it was laughable. Controll indeed

That is not what Drinky ment. AT ALL. Fox didn't give Ridley enough control on the TC.

[The Fake Shemp]

Where's this universal acclaim for the DC? I don't see it, except for on message boards which is a bad sign. Unless the DC cuts out 90% of what I saw, it can't be better. In fact, it's probably more of the same, plus another hour. NO THANKS

I am going to change your name to poop mouth, because that's what comes out of your mouth.  How 'bout looking at just IGN, which is definitely on your reading level, where the Director's Cut propelled the movie from a 5.0 rating to a 10.0 rating:

Having seen the original version, attended press interviews on its behalf and suffered through endless justifications of its seemingly superficial complexities, I was perhaps understandably nonplused at the prospect of an even longer interpretation of William Monahan's screenplay. But a recent Los Angeles screening of the Director's Cut revealed not only that my doubts were unfounded, but that Scott has lost none of his talent for telling stories; because Kingdom of Heaven: The Director's Cut is not just a 2 ½ star movie that earned itself two more stars, but one of Ridley Scott's best, and moreover, a film that deserves its place in cinema history - even if that place could only be located on DVD.

Here's some more Google tidbits

Kingdom of Heaven: Director's Cut: The true scope of Ridley Scott's Crusades epic was revealed in this DVD-only release, which restored 45 crucial minutes of previously-excised footage to the neutered version released to theaters in 2005.

Best do-over: Ridley Scott turned a middling theatrical release into a compelling epic with his engrossing four-disc director's cut of "Kingdom of Heaven" ($35).

Ridley Scott's Crusades epic "Kingdom of Heaven," now available on Blu-ray in Ridley Scott's "Director's Cut" (****, Fox, 39.98), is something like a revelation.

Rather than re-re-review the re-re-release, here's the Lounge lowdown on what's different and why it makes things better. By reinstating 40 minutes of extra footage to his Crusader epic, director Ridley Scott manages to... MAKE ORLANDO BLOOM A BETTER ACTOR. (Four Stars)

Kingdom of Heaven: Director's Cut, is a rare title that deserves the label. Radically altered from the financially unsuccessful version that unspooled in theaters in the summer of 2005, Kingdom of Heaven: Director's Cut restores 45 minutes of footage and transforms a compelling-yet-frustrating movie into a breathtaking epic.

Now new on DVD, Scott's "Kingdom of Heaven: Director's Cut" runs 191 minutes and it's a vastly improved film. Had Fox ditched plans for the shorter version and let Scott release his cut in the fall or winter, this ambitiously flawed epic surely would earned Oscar nominations, rather than being lumped in with other failed genre entries like "Troy," "King Arthur" and "Alexander."

It goes on and on.

[Cheebs]

This is a archival worthy topic. No topic before this has ever shown someone's lack of film knowledge in the history of the internet.

[Phoenix Dark]

Zap2it, Digital Beats, and DVD talk. Impressive. Want to throw Dark Horizons in there too for good measure?

That is not what Drinky ment. AT ALL. Fox didn't give Ridley enough control on the TC.

Well what did he mean? FOX is not to blame for the movie's horrible acting. Great directors find ways to pull great preformances out of actors. Yet I saw nothing great about Scott in this movie. What I saw was Orlando Bloom prancing around, clearly cast poorly, Eva Green forgetting her accent, and many more poor preformances. How would 45min fix that?

[Cheebs]

Zap2it, Digital Beats, and DVD talk. Impressive. Want to throw Dark Horizons in there too for good measure?

Nor is The Detroit Free Press?

[The Fake Shemp]

I gave you papers and legitimate critics.  IGN is one of the biggest media outlets in the fucking world, by the way.  Their press creds land them ahead of many other paper outlets in press junkets.

O WAIT I AM SENOR POOP MOUF TEH POOP WILL COME OUT OF MY MOUF

[Cheebs]

What blows my mind is PD is deciding the quality of a movie he NEVER SAW (Basing your view on KoH DC by the TC is like basing your view on KoH DC by using Troy).

[Phoenix Dark]

Zap2it, Digital Beats, and DVD talk. Impressive. Want to throw Dark Horizons in there too for good measure?

Nor is The Detroit Free Press?

I live in Michigan. The DFP is a joke.

I think we can all agree that the TC is horrible. IF I find the DC I will definitely give it a chance, but I will tell you right now that I DOUBT it'll fix anything. Like I said, my problem is not with the editing or holes in the story; I knew about that going into the movie. My problem is with the horrible acting and poor script, and I fail to see how an extra 45min can fix something as fundemental as that

[The Fake Shemp]

ONLY FANBOYZ LIKED IT LIKE IGN AND THE MIAMI HERALD AND STUFF

[Cheebs]

DFP is the biggest and most well respected paper in the state

[Phoenix Dark]

I gave you papers and legitimate critics.  IGN is one of the biggest media outlets in the fucking world, by the way.  Their press creds land them ahead of many other paper outlets in press junkets.

O WAIT I AM SENOR POOP MOUF TEH POOP WILL COME OUT OF MY MOUF

Oh I'm not doubting you. I challenged you to find credible praise for the movie, and you did.

I am saying that I highly doubt they're correct. I'll see the movie if I can find it though.

[Van Cruncheon]

Eva Green's slipping accent is a NITPICK, poopmouf. Orlando Bloom is fine in the DC, although I agree that he's still a questionable cast. The rest? The acting is fine to great.

[Cheebs]

I am saying that I highly doubt they're correct. I'll see the movie if I can find it though.

Here is a quest. Find one review that doesn't LOVE KoH DC. One single review. There is a million sites and news papers that review DVD's. I bet there isn't one that didn't loved it. Hell I bet you'd be challanged to find someone who seen the DC and thinks Gladiator or Braveheart was better.

[The Fake Shemp]

I don't think you can really judge acting and the script when there's be 45 minutes or so cut out of the film, which apparently makes it better.  I can make The Godfather a steaming pile of shit script and acting-wise by taking everything out of context and cutting 45 minutes.

[Cheebs]

You know...first The Princess Bride, then Blade Runner, now this.... Has PD made a movie review topic that didn't cause everyone to get in a argument over his taste? It's kind of sad almost. 

I eagerly fear the "Seven Samurai...MEH, Forrest Gump was better" topic appearing one of these days.

[The Fake Shemp]

I do concur that Blade Runner is overrated.

[Phoenix Dark]

I don't think you can really judge acting and the script when there's be 45 minutes or so cut out of the film, which apparently makes it better.  I can make The Godfather a steaming pile of shit script and acting-wise by taking everything out of context and cutting 45 minutes.

Like I said, I doubt it.

If I find it I'll get it. I have to take back POTC2 and The Birds today, so I might as well look for it; luckily I got both movies at a different Hollywood Video than the one I got KOH/Brazil from. Maybe they'll have it

[Phoenix Dark]

I do concur that Blade Runner is overrated.

You have taste in movies my man. Impressive.

Outside of maybe 3-4 movies no one has a problem with my taste so I fail to see what the big deal is.

[Cheebs]

I do concur that Blade Runner is overrated.

You have taste in movies my man. Impressive.

Outside of maybe 3-4 movies no one has a problem with my taste so I fail to see what the big deal is.

I consider To Kill A Mockingbird my third fav. movie of all time. 

ONE CHANCE FOR REDEMPTION. You rented PotC 2 you said. If you agree that it was over-rated you win.

[The Fake Shemp]

I don't know if Dead Man's Chest is really overrated.  It got very mixed reviews, but it was a commercial juggnernaut.

[Phoenix Dark]

I do concur that Blade Runner is overrated.

You have taste in movies my man. Impressive.

Outside of maybe 3-4 movies no one has a problem with my taste so I fail to see what the big deal is.

I consider To Kill A Mockingbird my third fav. movie of all time. 

ONE CHANCE FOR REDEMPTION. You rented PotC 2 you said. If you agree that it was over-rated you win.

I went to the movies to see it, and I don't remember much from the experience. So I decided to rent it again. I must say POTC2 is one of the best adventure movies I've ever seen. Is it a classic movie that can stand tall amongst the likes of Star Wars and LOTR? No. But it does its job quite well.

On nearly every level it grabs you, and is entertaining for the entire ride. And ride it is; people seem to forget that POTC is actually a theme ride. So OF COURSE the movie is a giant chase ride. I love it. 9/10

The Birds though...

[CajoleJuice]

Fuck POTC.

[Cheebs]

I don't know if Dead Man's Chest is really overrated.  It got very mixed reviews, but it was a commercial juggnernaut.

True over-rated isnt the word. Its a critically medicore movie that was a commerical giant.

[Phoenix Dark]

Why was it mediocre? It was much better than Kingdom of Heaven. Extremely shallow and not a traditional "sequel in a trilogy" by any stretch of the imagination, but it's the ultamite shallow adventure movie. It pounds and pounds and pounds and never lets up, which is a good thing for ADD movie watchers such as myself.

[CajoleJuice]

PD I can't believe you wasted your money on the theatrical cut of this movie even after everyone in the entire world said it sucks.

[Phoenix Dark]

PD I can't believe you wasted your money on the theatrical cut of this movie even after everyone in the entire world said it sucks.

Well I was going to get Die Hard 2, then I said "nah I'll get it latter". Then I was about to get Akira and I thought "CRAWWWLING INNNN MY SKINNNN" and quickly put the box down. Then I saw KOH, couldn't find the DC, covered up my Bloom Boner, and walked off along with Brazil

[CajoleJuice]

Fair enough. 

[Himu]

GET GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES, MILLENNIUM ACTRESS, AND PERFECT BLUE.

[Cheebs]

Why was it mediocre? It was much better than Kingdom of Heaven. Extremely shallow and not a traditional "sequel in a trilogy" by any stretch of the imagination, but it's the ultamite shallow adventure movie. It pounds and pounds and pounds and never lets up, which is a good thing for ADD movie watchers such as myself.

Stop mentioning KoH.  You haven't seen the movie yet.

And I said critcially medicore, as in it had a ROTTEN rating on Rotten Tomatoes.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/pirates_of_the_caribbean_dead_mans_chest/

The press did not like it. And if you look across various message boards and film sites top ten lists for the year you'd be very hard pressed to find Pirates on any lists. Familys and kids LOOOOVED it, but film fans and critics were very meh about it unlike LOTR and Star Wars.

[CajoleJuice]

GET GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES, MILLENNIUM ACTRESS, AND PERFECT BLUE.

Is that all anime? you japafag.

[Cheebs]

GET GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES, MILLENNIUM ACTRESS, AND PERFECT BLUE.

Is that all anime, you japafag?

Yes, it is anime. I haven't seen it. The only anime movies I have ever seen were Pokemon. 

[Himu]

GET GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES, MILLENNIUM ACTRESS, AND PERFECT BLUE.

Is that all anime? you japafag.

They're QUALITY, and if they were live action they'd still be amazing.

GET GRAVE OF THE FIREFLIES. I WANT TO SEE PD CRY.

[Cheebs]

Seriously, I have heard that is a good film. It is considered remarkable in that is a well liked film despite being in the joke of a medium, anime.

That and Miyazaki are some of the few, if only, anime related things that are considered "good" by non-anime fanboys.

[Phoenix Dark]

Why was it mediocre? It was much better than Kingdom of Heaven. Extremely shallow and not a traditional "sequel in a trilogy" by any stretch of the imagination, but it's the ultamite shallow adventure movie. It pounds and pounds and pounds and never lets up, which is a good thing for ADD movie watchers such as myself.

Stop mentioning KoH.  You haven't seen the movie yet.

And I said critcially medicore, as in it had a ROTTEN rating on Rotten Tomatoes.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/pirates_of_the_caribbean_dead_mans_chest/

The press did not like it. And if you look across various message boards and film sites top ten lists you'd be very hard pressed to find Pirates on any lists. Familys and kids LOOOOVED it, but film fans and critics were very meh about it unlike LOTR and Star Wars.

And that's why I said it doesn't stand up to those movies. But at least kids growing up in this age will be able to look back at the POTC trilogy instead of the new Star Wars trilogy. For that, I am grateful.

It's a shallow movie, pure and simple. My brother hates it because "it's just one giant chase scene". True. But if we are to oversimplify movies we can critisize all types of movies. LOTR is just "people walking around", Star Wars is just "a giant chase scene", Kingdom of Heaven is just "a shit sandwich that Spielberg laughs at", etc.

It's much better than the first one, which was poorly paced.

[Himu]

Seriously, I have heard that is a good film. It is considered remarkable in that is a well liked film despite being in the joke of a medium, anime.

Fuck you. I love animation in general and mature animated films that are not goddamn comedies are a rarity.

[Phoenix Dark]

MILLENNIUM ACTRESS

Rented it once with my brothers. Once I saw it was subtitled I yelled out "I'm not deaf, I'm not reading shit" and jumped on the computer. Haven't seen it

[Himu]

MILLENNIUM ACTRESS

Rented it once with my brothers. Once I saw it was subtitled I yelled out "I'm not deaf, I'm not reading shit" and jumped on the computer. Haven't seen it

WTF you add ridden ass cunt of a man.

[Cheebs]

Seriously, I have heard that is a good film. It is considered remarkable in that is a well liked film despite being in the joke of a medium, anime.

Fuck you. I love animation in general and mature animated films that are not goddamn comedies are a rarity.

I don't have a real opinion of anime seeing very little of it but it is indeed true "general consensus" is that anime is very much a joke in movie circles outside of a very few things. Along the same lines as kajiu movies like Godzilla.

You don't agree that among film fans anime on the same level as being seen as amature and a joke(outside the few mentioned exceptions) ala japanese kajiu movies?

[CajoleJuice]

 

[Himu]

Seriously, I have heard that is a good film. It is considered remarkable in that is a well liked film despite being in the joke of a medium, anime.

Fuck you. I love animation in general and mature animated films that are not goddamn comedies are a rarity.

I don't have a real opinion of anime seeing very little of it but it is indeed true "general consensus" is that anime is very much a joke in movie circles outside of a very few things. Along the same lines as kajiu movies like Godzilla.

I never disputed this. Most anime movies suck ass, it's true. Just like most anime in general!

I dare PD to rent Grave of the Fireflies and watch it in it's entirety.

[cubicle47b]

The director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven is awesome.  Then again, I enjoyed the theatrical version because the good people were secular humanists and jesus.

[CajoleJuice]

The only anime I've watched was when Adult Swim was dubbing farts into an episode of Ghost in the Shell.

I'm basically a 10 year old.

[Phoenix Dark]

Are you laughing at me or Cheebs?

Anime can be good. I wouldn't trust anyone's word of medium quality who likes James Bond and Kingdom of Heaven

[CajoleJuice]

I was just laughing at the entire argument.

[Cheebs]

The director's cut of Kingdom of Heaven is awesome.  Then again, I enjoyed the theatrical version because the good people were secular humanists and jesus.

secular humanists are a dying artform of belief! My world was shocked when I learned Charles Schulz (guy behind Charlie Brown) was very much a secular humanist the other day. Peanuts has so much biblical quotes in it that is insane.

[Himu]

Anime can be good. I wouldn't trust anyone's word of medium quality who likes James Bond and Kingdom of Heaven

The thing that gets me is that these fucks always get riled up when you mention something like Grave of the Fireflies. They're all OMG IT'S NOT LIVE ACTION.

[Phoenix Dark]

Seriously, I have heard that is a good film. It is considered remarkable in that is a well liked film despite being in the joke of a medium, anime.

Fuck you. I love animation in general and mature animated films that are not goddamn comedies are a rarity.

I don't have a real opinion of anime seeing very little of it but it is indeed true "general consensus" is that anime is very much a joke in movie circles outside of a very few things. Along the same lines as kajiu movies like Godzilla.

I never disputed this. Most anime movies suck ass, it's true. Just like most anime in general!

I dare PD to rent Grave of the Fireflies and watch it in it's entirety.

Why, so I can I can have a good laugh? Would you like an anime about Nazis while you're at it? I've got an anime about Nazi kids for you, in my ass























































I kid. I'll watch it