Author Topic: Real Talk: Level Design (Read 2146 times)

demi · « **on:** February 16, 2012, 07:44:39 PM »

I started my thread title with "Real Talk" because I am hoping those of us here can provide serious replies.

I guess in a nutshell, post some examples of good - or bad - level design, and explain why. Any genre, any game, any format.

Howard Alan Treesong · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:08:35 PM »

I am playing Thief: The Dark Project and its level design is SO GOOD it makes me feel EXTREMELY embarrassed for modern level designers.

demi · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:14:20 PM »

Can you explain what makes it stand out?

Positive Touch · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:16:18 PM »

metroid zero mission is one of the hig-water marks that comes to mind. excellent pacing, tons of optional pathways that give nods to old-school metroid secrets and sequence breaking, loads of fun little "puzzles" to get to items, and the ENTIRE GAME is set up in this great way that lets you cover the entire map in a seamless run when you're going for 100%. it's seriously insane how cohesive the whole map feels.

cool breeze · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:17:03 PM »

Deus Ex. Specifically Vandenberg, Hong Kong (the entire hub), and Versalife.

Notable for how, um, well designed they are at supporting your character build and chosen approach. Hong Kong has an entire section that's for people who dumped points into swimming. Also In each case the places feel real and can exploited based on realistic principles.

The Versalife building in Hong Kong is just cool. You go in from the lobby and can talk to the front desk lady and you have some low level security dork there to stop you if you act out. But as you uncover the real purpose of the building and dig deeper there's crazier shit and mech security and science labs with weird new species and secret offices and it's awesome.

Oh, and you can get lost in a good way. Not Perfect Dark Zero's "where the fuck am i why isnt that blue arrow showing up" way

Vizzys · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:18:56 PM »

adam foster does good work like in Minerva
http://www.blog.radiator.debacle.us/2009/01/mod-auteurs-adam-foster-cargo-cult.html

this guy sums stuff up better than I can

Positive Touch · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:29:42 PM »

Quote from: demi on February 16, 2012, 09:14:20 PM

Can you explain what makes it stand out?

well it's not a strait line with rooms full of preplanned fights or obvious puzzles, so it's better than 99% of modern action games right there

Vizzys · « **Reply #7 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:32:46 PM »

I also agree with linkzg in that deus ex has basically perfect level design, and put games nowadays to shame

Vizzys · « **Reply #8 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:35:07 PM »

modern level design has been tainted by graphical fidelity

instead of planning interesting areas not possible in real life designers are now constrained to the imitation of reality

realism ruined gaming

demi · « **Reply #9 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:40:34 PM »

Quote from: Positive Touch on February 16, 2012, 09:29:42 PM

Quote from: demi on February 16, 2012, 09:14:20 PM
Can you explain what makes it stand out?

well it's not a strait line with rooms full of preplanned fights or obvious puzzles, so it's better than 99% of modern action games right there

Sure. I was hoping for a short blurb since he had never played Thief before he mentioned.

Akala · « **Reply #10 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:43:39 PM »

Really broad question.

I think good level design really comes from a true understanding of basic game mechanics. It also hinges on how (and in which way) a game's basic mechanics allow a dev to gradually increase difficulty to make the game engaging. Kind of falls under "game design", but you can usually tell how well a game is designed by looking at the first and then a near-endgame level. Granted, following example falls under "we make a babby level or two to hook people", but look at something like sonic 1. Compare the initial stage(s):

To something later in the game...more enemies and obstacles are placed in your path...while it doesn't break the game, it fundamentally changes the feel. You end up with something like this.

While every level being full-on speed would result in a really shallow ten-minute game, looking at the two side-by-side makes it look incohesive. They really needed to find a middle ground throughout the whole game...something Sonic is still trying to get right.

Then you look at something like Super Mario Brothers, and there is a very natural progression from the first levels all the way to the end...ok, world 8 sucked, but it was still fair. Same formula, more obstacles + more enemies, but it worked. And it works as a more cohesive whole.

It also has to do with usually knowing which way to the goal. Old 2D games had it pretty easy usually, but most 3D games have pretty much caught up through guide arrows or whatever. The really well-designed games can do it without holding your hand though...or invisible walls.

---
Racing games have it easier. All you really need to do is increase the speed (or tack on horribad AI opponents, I guess). Total bias, but it's pretty easy to tell the better-designed racing games from the others, because you can actually find crazy speedruns on youtube. Using speed laps to serve my argument! Poor racing games don't really allow beautiful, perfect runs, and people usually don't post crappy runs online. Posting some XL/2097, from early, to late in the game:

cool breeze · « **Reply #11 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:44:47 PM »

Deus Ex HR had good level design too, but not as good as the original Deus Ex. I guess sometimes technology does get in the way, yeah. Deus Ex Invisible War was a mess. Just the hubs and complexity were completely shot with loading screens breaking up tiny chunks of world.

demi · « **Reply #12 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:48:30 PM »

It is a broad question, but there isn't any correct or wrong way to answer it.

What games have good level design to you and why? What games had just offensively bad level design and why? What "makes" level design for you? Does each genre have specific rules to adhere to compared to others? We always see reviewers toss this word around, as if they understand it.

It could be Dragon Age 2's repetitive what the fuck this cave again, Final Fantasy 13's squiggle layout. Final Fantasy 14 (nothing to explain). Or the open ended layout that the older games provided.

My favorite example would be Half Life, because of how unique the game keeps throwing at you. Every section feels unique. Half Life 2 does this as well. It feels like one continuous path, but it's so unique it feels different each time. Ravenholm, the speedboat chase, Citadel, etc.

Great Rumbler · « **Reply #13 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:53:33 PM »

The City of Sigil from Planescape: Torment

Yes, I know, it's really more like half of the entire game, but I don't care! The wonderfully-dark fantasy look, the depth of the characters you meet, how well-developed the quests are [putting 99% of the quests in other RPGs to absolute shame], the lore of all the realms converging in one location, and just...the atmosphere that oozes from every screen, it's a masterful achievement at every level.

cool breeze · « **Reply #14 on:** February 16, 2012, 09:57:51 PM »

Bionic Commando (the next gen one) has some awful levels and some great levels. Some have very linear paths that block you off with the stupid noxious gas. Others are like jungle gyms that support the swinging mechanic and allow better players to play better. That high skill ceiling thing.

I can't remember the level name, but it's fairly late in the game. There's a case of metal girders and flying enemies. I think it's nighttime and the kickass music starts playing.

etiolate · « **Reply #15 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:05:13 PM »

I need to play some Thief.

Super Metroid/MZM/Metroid Prime: Wrapping, inter-connected levels with secret paths and the ability to take it slow or do a speedrun. I imagine this sort of approach to level design requires a lot of planning at the start and further adjustments over time to accommodate each section and allow an adaptable pace for the player.

Sonic 2: Again, levels that can be done quickly or explored. Visual design is key in providing the cues a player needs to explore due to the speed of the character.

I'll compare my good examples to Capsized, which has problematic level design not due to the structuring of the levels but due to visual clarity. In Sonic 2, you can observe a potential platform immediately and an enemy immediately. The player needs to trust in a visual logic and clarity. While Metroid games have dense flaura and alien structure, they still are able to communicate the sort of spots that may hold secrets and which may be harmful or helpful. Capsized features animated foregrounds and backgrounds, with background creatures that the character cannot interact with and foreground creatures which are harmful or helpful. The difference between these is hard to tell right away. Certain plants must be shot at, but certain plants are just window dressing. The game doesn't color foreground and background differently. You can't really tell which is which. You need to have adhesion to aesthetics in your visuals while not having adhesion of objects in your visuals. If a player can't trust what he sees then the player will get frustrated with the game.

MCD · « **Reply #16 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:16:39 PM »

Quote from: Linkzg on February 16, 2012, 09:17:03 PM

Deus Ex. Specifically Vandenberg, Hong Kong (the entire hub), and Versalife.

Notable for how, um, well designed they are at supporting your character build and chosen approach. Hong Kong has an entire section that's for people who dumped points into swimming. Also In each case the places feel real and can exploited based on realistic principles.

The Versalife building in Hong Kong is just cool. You go in from the lobby and can talk to the front desk lady and you have some low level security dork there to stop you if you act out. But as you uncover the real purpose of the building and dig deeper there's crazier shit and mech security and science labs with weird new species and secret offices and it's awesome.

Oh, and you can get lost in a good way. Not Perfect Dark Zero's "where the fuck am i why isnt that blue arrow showing up" way

This for me.

Basically large areas with multiple routes and approaches.

tiesto · « **Reply #17 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:26:52 PM »

Good level design is something where every facet of the level, every platform/switch/etc. is precisely placed for a reason. One where the challenge level ramps up consistently, and the level is cohesive with a few interesting twists and turns that play on expectations here and there. Not much in the way of backtracking, but still reasonably nonlinear, with plenty of secrets to find. Effective pacing, with highly eventful periods and some "cooldown" periods. Level design is one of the most important factors in "gameplay" to me, especially in platformers and action games.

Games that I think have great level design:
Super Metroid
Mega Man 2, 3, 9
Super Mario World and Yoshi's Island
Zelda: Twilight Princess (the dungeons)
Sonic 3

Excellent article singling out Super Metroid, showing why this game does the "Metroidvania" much better than all the rest:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/HugoBille/20120114/9236/

Bad level design to me would be something like Donkey Kong Country. The levels have no rhythm to them and tend to be extremely ham-fisted with the way their challenge ramps
up - oh jump over one rat... now jump over 2... now jump over 3... now jump over 3 with a pit to deal with. Another game with terrible level design is Halo. Wave after wave of copy-pasted room making it very easy to get lost and run around in circles. Eternal Sonata for RPGs. Levels are extremely linear, with the occasional fork that leads to treasure.

Jarosh posted this about DKC and it really echoes a lot of my feelings toward that game:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412234

Vizzys · « **Reply #18 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:31:37 PM »

Halo is not 'bad' level design most of the time

Himu · « **Reply #19 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:32:57 PM »

For me, great level design is about build up and building up on things the player has been exposed to so that by the end of the game, the player has to master the approaches presented at the beginning of the game by using the sum of the game mechanics in their entirety.

There have been great examples in this thread but my favorite example, personally, is Jet Set Radio.

JSR's level design is many things: memorization, ordering priorities, considering time and speed, doing things in a mechanical order with precise precision and swift accuracy in order to obtain a Jet rank.

Take the general sewers area. During the Poison Jam set of levels you go through a sewer system, a garbage dump, and more. These are self-contained levels. By in one of the finale levels, Fight or Flight, the game combines ALL of these levels you've visited into one whole, without load times, requiring you to know every shortcut, every red tag, every green tag, and knocking the level out in just a few minutes to obtain a Jet ranking.

It takes every single thing that the game was building up to at that point and the result is a orgy of awesome.

What was admittedly simple before...

becomes increasingly complex...

fistfulofmetal · « **Reply #20 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:35:22 PM »

the first game that really sticks out in my mind with great level design is Metroid Prime. it's specifically the way different parts of the game world connect together in clever ways. that first initial Chozo ruins area branches off into dozens of routes that all lead to different specific puzzle areas and in a lot of cases they also connect into each other or overlap. stuff like that does it for me.

Howard Alan Treesong · « **Reply #21 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:41:27 PM »

for me, the thing Thief does better than just about any game I've played is: it feels like a place, not a level. you can still navigate it reasonably straightforwardly, but the level feels like it was there before you were - it doesn't feel like it was slapped together by some Associate Environment Artist on their fifth Diet Mt. Dew of the day, but like it was lovingly built by an architect who wishes they could actually live there. the people and places in the level feel like they have a reason to be there besides the player - the player is part of the world, and can navigate it in interesting ways, but the world doesn't feel like it was created for the sole purpose of the player. there's a history and a backstory to almost every wall or prop, and that weight has a cumulative effect of feeling like YOU are there - not just the player avatar, but you the player.

THAT is great level design!

Himu · « **Reply #22 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:44:39 PM »

That sounds more like aesthetic appeal to me, more so than design. I mean, Wind Waker has vibrant colored dungeons and a wonderfully crafted world, but the actual design of the game is pretty...eh.

Howard Alan Treesong · « **Reply #23 on:** February 16, 2012, 10:48:00 PM »

Not at all ... I mean, one of the things I hate about Prince of Persia games is the way that handholds are all exactly One Wall Run apart. An interesting level has places you must go, places you should go, places you can go, all with multiple ways to traverse it from start to finish ... it has nothing to do with aesthetics and everything to do with geometry. The player is not the center of the universe!

cool breeze · « **Reply #24 on:** February 16, 2012, 11:02:45 PM »

I'd agree with what you're saying if I didn't disagree with that Prince of Persia comment. Sometimes verisimilitude needs to be sacrificed for gameplay purposes. It's more evident in multiplayer maps that need to be balanced to give opposing teams an equal chance of victory; the simplest, extreme example is blood gulch/twofort.

Selling the Prince of Persia or Tomb Raider style of platforming in a real location, with logical design and all, will probably leave you climbing into dead ends unless there were multiple solutions and failing was one. Kinda going off, but it's why I was fine with those abstract Mirror's Edge levels. At the end of the day I just wanted to do some platforming. What I wanted out of that game isn't what I want out of stealth games. Or I'm completely missing the point.

also, militia is my favorite counter-strike map and it's also one of the worst ones. no one ever plays it. it's always de_dust2, sometimes office and aztec. I bet that new counter strike game won't even update militia.

Momo · « **Reply #25 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:30:40 AM »

Akala stole my post, I was coming in here with glorious Sonic levels in my heart.

chronovore · « **Reply #26 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:41:17 AM »

Quote from: Howard Alan Treesong on February 16, 2012, 10:48:00 PM

Not at all ... I mean, one of the things I hate about Prince of Persia games is the way that handholds are all exactly One Wall Run apart. An interesting level has places you must go, places you should go, places you can go, all with multiple ways to traverse it from start to finish ... it has nothing to do with aesthetics and everything to do with geometry. The player is not the center of the universe!

Yeah, this bothered me in PoP as well. The whole thing is based on a player-character accessible grid, and it's just a matter of how well-arted it is that it doesn't ALWAYS read like one.

MCD · « **Reply #27 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:44:45 AM »

Another cool level design is the hub world from Ninja Gaiden Black.
At a first glance the place is just a boring, barren city filled with crazy ninjas but then you get to explore it and find yourself immersed with the all the different levels in this simple hub.

Ninja Gaiden 2 cuts the hub world and makes it straight forward with classic go to the next chapter levels which is more effective for a speedy action game but I guess it isn't as engaging or creative like the first game.

Vizzys · « **Reply #28 on:** February 17, 2012, 04:44:40 AM »

I was being hyperbolic ofc

and eidos montreal did the best they could to follow up on one of the greatest pc games of all time and for that I salute them

Boogie · « **Reply #29 on:** February 17, 2012, 11:04:37 AM »

Quote from: Linkzg on February 16, 2012, 09:17:03 PM

Deus Ex. Specifically Vandenberg, Hong Kong (the entire hub), and Versalife.

Notable for how, um, well designed they are at supporting your character build and chosen approach. Hong Kong has an entire section that's for people who dumped points into swimming. Also In each case the places feel real and can exploited based on realistic principles.

The Versalife building in Hong Kong is just cool. You go in from the lobby and can talk to the front desk lady and you have some low level security dork there to stop you if you act out. But as you uncover the real purpose of the building and dig deeper there's crazier shit and mech security and science labs with weird new species and secret offices and it's awesome.

Oh, and you can get lost in a good way. Not Perfect Dark Zero's "where the fuck am i why isnt that blue arrow showing up" way

Deus Ex

Himu · « **Reply #30 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:03:21 PM »

CoD level design can be atrocious, particularly Black Ops' levels. I remember this one Vietnam level that was so bad I put off beating it for months. Still haven't beaten BO (lol). Horrible sp.

Joe Molotov · « **Reply #31 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:05:58 PM »

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 17, 2012, 12:03:21 PM

CoD level design can be atrocious, particularly Black Ops' levels. I remember this one Vietnam level that was so bad I put off beating it for months. Still haven't beaten BO (lol). Horrible sp.

For a second I read that as it was "so bad that I put off beating off for months". Now that would be a bad level!

Eel O'Brian · « **Reply #32 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:11:42 PM »

I guess they aren't really "levels," but I started a new stealth/archer/mage character in Skyrim and was surprised at how adaptable the dungeons were to that playstyle. With my other character I would just barrel in swinging that crazy Daedric mace and shooting fireballs at everything, so I never paid that much attention before, but they made sure to place plenty of nooks and shadows and ledges in each one to make them approachable for just about any character spec. There was also a nearby clear exit in every one after you'd cleared it, in case you just wanted to leave instead of backtracking to pick up any leftover loot. That's a recent example of what I consider good design.

Eel O'Brian · « **Reply #33 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:20:16 PM »

Other than cheap "gotcha" deaths, nothing pisses me off in a game more than forced backtracking, and as much as I liked the first Dead Space it was full of that kind of shit. That's bad level design, imo.

Himu · « **Reply #34 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:24:42 PM »

Resident Evil 4.

The game builds up each new area with new thrills, new excitement, variety, new enemy types, amazing boss fights.

Howard Alan Treesong · « **Reply #35 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:52:49 PM »

Quote from: Stringer Bell on February 17, 2012, 12:24:42 PM

Resident Evil 4.

The game builds up each new area with new thrills, new excitement, variety, new enemy types, amazing boss fights.

> talking about level design
> brings up enemies and boss fights

chronovore · « **Reply #36 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:55:51 PM »

The original Klonoa had very well-ramped level design. The base mechanics are so simple and straightforward, but by the later levels there were some crazy traversal puzzles and trickily timed grab-jump routines to get through. The progression from babby-easy to hard felt very natural.

Himu · « **Reply #37 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:58:19 PM »

They're not exactly insular concepts. For example, half the fun of levels in a Mega Man game is knowing where each enemy is, using this to your advantage and using the right robot powers on them to make getting through the level faster. Fighting the enemies is as integral to the Mega Man experience as getting over treacherous pits of spikes. If you're just talking about level design, as in how the levels are mapped, that's a pretty one-dimensional definition of level design. To me level design encompasses pacing, difficulty spikes, layout, exploration, enemy encounters, memorization, and building upon core game concepts. In a good level, all of this matters. Resident Evil 4 combines all of these elements into one fine package.

Himu · « **Reply #38 on:** February 17, 2012, 12:59:07 PM »

Quote from: chronovore on February 17, 2012, 12:55:51 PM

The original Klonoa had very well-ramped level design. The base mechanics are so simple and straightforward, but by the later levels there were some crazy traversal puzzles and trickily timed grab-jump routines to get through. The progression from babby-easy to hard felt very natural.

Klonoa games are great at this. The original, ps2 sequel, and the gba games all have this feel.

Howard Alan Treesong · « **Reply #39 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:00:36 PM »

you don't get to redefine "level design" just because you don't know what it is

encounter design thread is --> that way

cool breeze · « **Reply #40 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:03:21 PM »

VVVVVV is amazing if you excuse that small part when you're controlling two characters.

Quote from: Viz on February 16, 2012, 10:31:37 PM

Halo is not 'bad' level design most of the time

yeah, levels in Halo games are mostly good, sometimes great, sometimes fucking awful. Cortana in Halo 3

Great Rumbler · « **Reply #41 on:** February 17, 2012, 01:22:03 PM »

Super Meat Boy

Hazards and pitfalls placed in just the right spot as to provide a razor-thin margin between dying for the hundredth time and finally making it to the next hazard or pitfall. Some of the best platforming in ages.

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Author Topic: Real Talk: Level Design (Read 2146 times)