Author Topic: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15  (Read 10874 times)

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Lonestar

  • Junior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2007, 05:09:49 PM »
Doctors cant make them be healthy, and they wont do it on their own. Sounds like a personal problem. I have healthcare, but I take it upon myself to remain healthy and keep doctor visits to a minimum.


I never said Doctors could magically make a person healthly.  I'm simply saying that doctors can oftentime prevent, or at least mitigate, impending disaster.  Waiting till the last moment does nobody any good. 

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #61 on: January 05, 2007, 05:16:03 PM »
I personally see a burger flipper as more valuable than a middle-management bureaucrat, an investment banker, or a lawyer -- at least a burger flipper PREPARES FOOD FOR ME. The other ones? They're leeches. Given that most of a position's perceived "value" is purely cultural/societal and not grounded in any practical contribution to society at large or in the amount of human heat energy expended in its pursuit, I'm all for normalizing salaries and relegating degrees to second-tier consideration when evaluating an employee's worth.

I'd buy that argument if burger flipping took skill or ability, or time, focus/attention, or responsibility, or any objective measure through which we may justify rank; but as I mentioned before it's not even like a burger needs to be flipped a bunch of times.  Even a philosophy major could do it.
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MrAngryFace

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #62 on: January 05, 2007, 05:19:58 PM »
Clogging up the clinics with stubbed toes ALSO doesnt do anyone any good.
o_0

Lonestar

  • Junior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #63 on: January 05, 2007, 05:21:00 PM »
Clogging up the clinics with stubbed toes ALSO doesnt do anyone any good.

If you're replying to me then clearly you have a reading comprehension problem. 

TVC15

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  • Senior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #64 on: January 05, 2007, 05:21:54 PM »
Doctors cant make them be healthy, and they wont do it on their own. Sounds like a personal problem. I have healthcare, but I take it upon myself to remain healthy and keep doctor visits to a minimum.


I never said Doctors could magically make a person healthly.  I'm simply saying that doctors can oftentime prevent, or at least mitigate, impending disaster.  Waiting till the last moment does nobody any good. 

Except people have to wait until the last minute because they usually don't have any real choice, when it comes to finances.
serge

MrAngryFace

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2007, 05:23:08 PM »
Lonestar: And youre clearly a distinguished mentally-challenged fellow. This is going wonderfully!
o_0

Flannel Boy

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2007, 05:30:04 PM »
You know Drinky, you're free to take the salary, which you are undeserving of, and give it to some random burger flipper.

Even a philosophy major could do it.
:(

Roland

  • Junior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #67 on: January 05, 2007, 07:36:06 PM »
I personally see a burger flipper as more valuable than a middle-management bureaucrat, an investment banker, or a lawyer -- at least a burger flipper PREPARES FOOD FOR ME. The other ones? They're leeches. Given that most of a position's perceived "value" is purely cultural/societal and not grounded in any practical contribution to society at large or in the amount of human heat energy expended in its pursuit, I'm all for normalizing salaries and relegating degrees to second-tier consideration when evaluating an employee's worth.

I'd buy that argument if burger flipping took skill or ability, or time, focus/attention, or responsibility, or any objective measure through which we may justify rank; but as I mentioned before it's not even like a burger needs to be flipped a bunch of times.  Even a philosophy major could do it.
I suppose the responsiblity comes into play when they don't do something to your food that could make you seriously ill.  Don't fuck with the food service industry.  I don't handle food, but I could seriously fuck with your drink, if I wanted.  Be polite to us, tip well, and we will seriously take care of you.

Diablos

  • Guest
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #68 on: January 05, 2007, 07:41:35 PM »
sadly, though, raising the minimum wage doesn't matter, because inflation will increase correspondingly regardless.
As far as I'm concerned, the minimum wage should've been raised to $7-8 like 5 years ago, and today we should be discussing raising it even higher than that. But we're so far behind that it probably won't make a difference, largely in part due to inflation as you said... however, a higher minimum wage is better than nothing.

It would be nice if we could have a system where the minimum wage would always have to be raised to a certain level to match inflation. Realistically, I don't know if this would work... you may know if it would or wouldn't, though. So correct me if this is a bad idea :P

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #69 on: January 05, 2007, 07:50:54 PM »
I'd buy that argument if burger flipping took skill or ability, or time, focus/attention, or responsibility, or any objective measure through which we may justify rank; but as I mentioned before it's not even like a burger needs to be flipped a bunch of times.  Even a philosophy major could do it.
I suppose the responsiblity comes into play when they don't do something to your food that could make you seriously ill.  Don't fuck with the food service industry.  I don't handle food, but I could seriously fuck with your drink, if I wanted.  Be polite to us, tip well, and we will seriously take care of you.

That's fine--in as much as understanding the commonplace reality of this can make clearly illegal and immoral extortion "fine" in one's mind--but note that actually fucking with someone's food in a way that jeopardizes their health could, in a highly-regulated community, lead to the person doing the food tampering's imprisonment and possible banishment from food, restaurant, and bar professions entirely; not to mention high fines and possible closure of the establishment in question.  Don't fuck with people in food service?  Fine.  Don't fuck with people's health either.
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Roland

  • Junior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #70 on: January 05, 2007, 07:56:32 PM »
I'd buy that argument if burger flipping took skill or ability, or time, focus/attention, or responsibility, or any objective measure through which we may justify rank; but as I mentioned before it's not even like a burger needs to be flipped a bunch of times.  Even a philosophy major could do it.
I suppose the responsiblity comes into play when they don't do something to your food that could make you seriously ill.  Don't fuck with the food service industry.  I don't handle food, but I could seriously fuck with your drink, if I wanted.  Be polite to us, tip well, and we will seriously take care of you.

That's fine--in as much as understanding the commonplace reality of this can make clearly illegal and immoral extortion "fine" in one's mind--but note that actually fucking with someone's food in a way that jeopardizes their health could, in a highly-regulated community, lead to the person doing the food tampering's imprisonment and possible banishment from food, restaurant, and bar professions entirely; not to mention high fines and possible closure of the establishment in question.  Don't fuck with people in food service?  Fine.  Don't fuck with people's health either.
Sure, there are consequences to everything.  But when did those ever outweigh the immediate situation/poor judgement/conflicting emotions that resulted in them?  I'm not saying I condone that type of thing.  I've never personally done it.  It is a reality though.  A little respect goes a long way, on both sides of the bar.  We are forced to give it to the people we serve regardless of how we are treated. 

All I am saying is that everyone deserves a living wage and respect as a human being.  Burger flippers aren't lesser people.  They just have a different job.

Mupepe

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #71 on: January 05, 2007, 08:09:13 PM »
Minimum wages should be set by regions (states/counties) due to fluxuation in standards of living throughout the Country.

Also, I think we can all agree, the national minimum wage does need to be raised, but probably not THAT much.  Some people on GAF were saying "10 dollars an hour minimum wage!  hyuck!"  No.  Just no, that would be disastrous and there are certain jobs that should just not be paid that much.

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #72 on: January 05, 2007, 08:45:19 PM »
Minimum wages should be set by regions (states/counties) due to fluxuation in standards of living throughout the Country.

Also, I think we can all agree, the national minimum wage does need to be raised, but probably not THAT much.  Some people on GAF were saying "10 dollars an hour minimum wage!  hyuck!"  No.  Just no, that would be disastrous and there are certain jobs that should just not be paid that much.

Dude, people on GAF say there's no consequence to raising the minimum wage TO ANY RATE WHATSOEVER.  They're fucking crazy loonytoons.
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Mupepe

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #73 on: January 05, 2007, 08:49:37 PM »
Minimum wages should be set by regions (states/counties) due to fluxuation in standards of living throughout the Country.

Also, I think we can all agree, the national minimum wage does need to be raised, but probably not THAT much.  Some people on GAF were saying "10 dollars an hour minimum wage!  hyuck!"  No.  Just no, that would be disastrous and there are certain jobs that should just not be paid that much.

Dude, people on GAF say there's no consequence to raising the minimum wage TO ANY RATE WHATSOEVER.  They're fucking crazy loonytoons.
Agreed.

brawndolicious

  • Nylonhilist
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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #74 on: January 05, 2007, 09:02:59 PM »
It would be nice if we could have a system where the minimum wage would always have to be raised to a certain level to match inflation. Realistically, I don't know if this would work... you may know if it would or wouldn't, though. So correct me if this is a bad idea :P
Yes, that would work, why wouldn't it work?

futami

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #75 on: January 06, 2007, 09:48:30 PM »
not everyone can go to college and receive the credentials to earn 40k a year.

that sad fact is, particularly in an economic paradigm that is moving towards the service industry, there are millions in this country, honest men and women with families, who are struggling on the fringes of homelessness.

i think the minimum wage should be raised a lot higher than what the dems are proposing.

i think productive, law-abiding american men and women deserve to live out their lives free from the pain of being poor.


Diablos

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2007, 12:05:17 AM »
I agree. The minimum wage should have been at $7.25 years ago.

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #77 on: January 07, 2007, 12:10:39 AM »


i think productive, law-abiding american men and women deserve to live out their lives free from the pain of being poor.



I guess some people have different definitions of Productive.

Van Cruncheon

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #78 on: January 07, 2007, 12:29:29 AM »
you mean "productive" as in "working your fucking ass off for 8 hours waiting on thanksless assholes and preparing food" or "productive" as in "sitting around sucking cock and hoping your script for 'Iron Man Adventures 4' gets picked up"
duc

Diablos

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #79 on: January 07, 2007, 01:27:42 AM »
Snap.

FlameOfCallandor

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #80 on: January 07, 2007, 01:51:08 AM »
Was that suppossed to be an insult to me?

B y the way, Waiting tables is alot more than minmum wage.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 01:52:45 AM by FlameOfCallandor »

Roland

  • Junior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #81 on: January 07, 2007, 02:46:52 AM »
Only if the tips are good.  The first week smoking was made illegal in Ohio the bar I work in just died.  One night, a Thursday night, in a college town, I made ten dollars.  I shit you not.

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #82 on: January 07, 2007, 02:53:25 AM »
Yea, its hit or miss sometimes. The smoking ban law is a whole mess in itself.

I worked at a good mexican resturaunt and averaged $16 an hour. Pretty damn good considering wating tables requires no skill or education.

Roland

  • Junior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #83 on: January 07, 2007, 02:59:11 AM »
It requires you to be able to multi-task.  That's a skill.  Patience could be called a skill.

We're picking back up again thank christ.

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #84 on: January 07, 2007, 03:03:20 AM »
Those arent skills.

Weilding is a skill. Plumping is a skill. Carpentry is a skill.

There are no skills required to be a waiter. Except speaking english i guess, which might be too much to ask from some people these days.  ::)

Roland

  • Junior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #85 on: January 07, 2007, 03:08:34 AM »
You must've had the friendliest most patient tables ever then if you don't consider those skills.
Or you were a shitty waiter.

What do you do now?

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #86 on: January 07, 2007, 03:10:24 AM »
Considering they money i made, i must have been a pretty good waiter.

Those arent skills whatever you say. Any dipshit can be a waiter. Hell, for a while we had a girl come to work on drugs and wait tables fine. All you do is bring people shit.

Roland

  • Junior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #87 on: January 07, 2007, 03:13:14 AM »
I take back what I said earlier in the thread.  I probably would fuck with your drink FOC.  If your attitude here is indicative of how you treat servers that is.

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #88 on: January 07, 2007, 03:14:14 AM »
I was a server, what the hell are you talking about.

All im saying is anyone can do it.

Loki

  • Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #89 on: January 07, 2007, 04:35:49 AM »
People tend to look at this issue backwards.  Here's how I look at it:


Take an arbitrary year -- say, 1969.  Minimum wage was $1.60/hr then; adjusted for inflation, that would be equivalent to roughly $8.90 today.  And this is only taking overall inflation into account.  If you factor in more "end-user" metrics like the CPI, the discrepancy is even greater, as several of the larger costs accounted for by the CPI (e.g., medical, housing, and tuition costs) have far outpaced general inflation.  But ignoring these other issues and sticking with the strict inflation-adjusted figures cited:


The $1.60/hr paid to an employee in 1969 was, obviously, a certain percentage of a company's income (both gross and net).  By all accounts, corporate revenue has skyrocketed, far outstripping inflation.  Profits have also increased exponentially, both in absolute terms and as a percentage of total revenue.  Let's assume (again arbitrarily) that the average minimum-wage-paying company's total expenditure on wage-based labor was 15% of revenue in 1969.  Seeing as how profits -- and profit margins -- have greatly increased, how can it be argued (economically, not philosophically -- save it, Randroids :P) that wage-based labor costs have to shrink as a percentage of overall revenue and/or profits?  Why should it not still be 15% of the now-larger pie the companies are eating?  Why should the price of goods increase along with a mimimum wage correction when, even if it's increased to $8/hr, it will still be less as a percentage of revenue than what companies paid 35 years ago?  I have never heard an adequate response to this question based on "traditional" economics.  In fact, I feel that it is not answerable economically in the traditional sense (more on this below), but only philosophically.  And when we delve into that realm, we find that the considerations of those who would perpetuate the status quo are both fundamentally illogical and nigh on inhumane.  The system they advocate -- one of increased economic stratification and marginalization, where the bulk of the populace is increasingly unable to meet their most basic needs and is seeing their standard of living eroded annually -- is ultimately unsustainable.


The reason I put "traditional" in quotes above when asking for an economic explanation is because I am well aware that in the speculative economic paradigm we operate under, pressure is continually exerted on companies to maximize profits by investors whose sole motive is to increase the value of their shares.  Thus, under such a system, it is perfectly understandable why a company would seek to reduce labor costs (as a percentage of revenue) even as its profits skyrocket:  margins must perpetually increase in order to sate the rapacious appetites of shareholders.  Labor costs make an easy target, because workers have little clout; such "savings" on labor are typically no longer achieved in the traditional manner (streamlining processes, economies of scale, increased mechanization etc.), but rather realized through outsourcing, the employment of illegal immigrants, and via organized campaigns by business consortiums to stagnate wages at the federal level.


It is for this very reason -- the pressure exerted by speculators -- that I personally believe that the entire speculative economy must be dismantled in favor of greater private ownership of companies.  Private ownership, though fraught with the potential for its own abuses, does not exert the same pressures on businesses that a speculative market does.  I fully believe that the speculative economy is one of the biggest con jobs ever perpetrated on the people of the world.  It can only lead to certain ends, none of which are pleasant.  The benefits of the speculative market (e.g., capital-raising) can be had through less socially harmful means.  Note that this has nothing to do with capitalism, per se, only with the investment paradigm.  They are not one and the same, despite seeming to be inextricably linked presently.  


At the very least, there needs to be greater governmental regulation of corporate practices; there needs to be a point where "enough is enough" (re: profits).  Ultimately, however, corporate insatiability is an outgrowth of a much larger societal issue: the lack of temperance.  We had a speculative economy in the 60's as well, but its inherent ills have become exacerbated as our culture has changed.  There was greater private ownership back then, too, which provided some balance.  Believe it or not, there was a time when ostentatious wealth and disproportionate compensation was frowned upon, even in economic circles, and that was because the culture -- corporate, societal -- was different.  The prevailing culture helped to rein in the excesses of the system.  When those social proscriptions dissolved, there remained no effective check on wealth accumulation, and greed increasingly became justified under all sorts of clever guises until the present day, where it is essentially what actuates the system.  Corporate social responsibility has become an afterthought, and when such concerns are brought to the fore, it is only in the most superficial and self-serving way.


In 50 years, we'll look back and wonder how we ever thought that the current features and trends in our economy and society at large would be sustainable in the long term.  We're being hoodwinked.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 02:46:35 PM by Loki »

futami

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #90 on: January 07, 2007, 04:38:48 AM »
you mean "productive" as in "working your fucking ass off for 8 hours waiting on thanksless assholes and preparing food" or "productive" as in "sitting around sucking cock and hoping your script for 'Iron Man Adventures 4' gets picked up"

lol

exactly

demi

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #91 on: January 07, 2007, 05:13:41 AM »
I take back what I said earlier in the thread.  I probably would fuck with your drink FOC.  If your attitude here is indicative of how you treat servers that is.

:rofl

I fucked with so many dickheads food and drinks...
fat

cloudwalking

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #92 on: January 07, 2007, 05:35:47 AM »
I wish i worked at a restaurant. The worst I have ever done is fucked with merchandise to the assholes buying it.

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #93 on: January 07, 2007, 12:35:42 PM »
you mean "productive" as in "working your fucking ass off for 8 hours waiting on thanksless assholes and preparing food"

Who wants to do that for the rest of their lives?
***

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #94 on: January 07, 2007, 12:41:35 PM »
Everyone here acts as if its hard to find a job that doesn't pay minimum wage. I have had 5 or 6 jobs in the past few years and only one paid minimum wage, and that was because I was still in High School.

I really dont know what kind of person is working minimum wage as a long term job. Even at fast food joints, people get promoted after a few months, unless your an idiot.

Van Cruncheon

  • live mas or die trying
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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #95 on: January 07, 2007, 12:43:06 PM »
you mean "productive" as in "working your fucking ass off for 8 hours waiting on thanksless assholes and preparing food"

Who wants to do that for the rest of their lives?

Nobody, but like I said, not everyone gets to be an astronaut or an investment banker. The world needs fry jockeys more than it needs NASA engineers.
duc

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #96 on: January 07, 2007, 12:45:08 PM »
Where would humankind be without those double cheesburgers.  ::)

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #97 on: January 07, 2007, 12:57:50 PM »
Yeah, it (the world) doesn't exactly need fry-jockeys in the first place, there's just a demand for them.  But that doesn't mean you have to do it for the rest of your life--or if you choose to, there are career paths within that structure if you just bother to take the work seriously and do a good job.
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Van Cruncheon

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #98 on: January 07, 2007, 01:00:21 PM »
Really? I bet maybe 20% of all jobs about there are actually desirable, but we have 80% of humans lookin' for employment. Like I said, do the numbers: most folks simply ain't gonna be able to get a job they like -- at best, they'll just get a job they tolerate.

If there's a demand, then the world needs 'em. Just because you consider yourself above the position or consider it far too base to be meaningful doesn't stop it from being necessary. Personally, I don't think the world needs any more film students.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 01:01:55 PM by Drinky Crow »
duc

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #99 on: January 07, 2007, 01:03:55 PM »
Really? I bet maybe 20% of all jobs about there are actually desirable, but we have 80% of humans lookin' for employment. Like I said, do the numbers: most folks simply ain't gonna be able to get a job they like -- at best, they'll just get a job they tolerate.

People tolerate their jobs becuase it pays the bills. Not everyone can get their dream job, especially if it requires some kind of education or training that they are not able to get. Its just they way the world works.

Quote
If there's a demand, then the world needs 'em. Just because you consider yourself above the position or consider it far too base to be meaningful doesn't stop it from being necessary. Personally, I don't think the world needs any more film students.


The world doesnt need them, humans lived for thousands of years without burger flippers. The world does need scientists. And for the record I dont consider myself above anyone, so cut that shit out. I hever once claimed to be some awesome person. You are right, the world doesnt need any more films students, but that doesnt meant I'm not going to try and achieve a dream of mine for a long time.

APF said it better than me, very few people actually stay minimum wage for very long. If you do you probably have some outside problems that you need to get help with first.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 01:07:41 PM by FlameOfCallandor »

Flannel Boy

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Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #100 on: January 07, 2007, 01:05:52 PM »
Really? I bet maybe 20% of all jobs about there are actually desirable, but we have 80% of humans lookin' for employment. Like I said, do the numbers: most folks simply ain't gonna be able to get a job they like -- at best, they'll just get a job they tolerate.

People tolerate their jobs becuase it pays the bills. Not everyone can get their dream job, especially if it requires some kind of education or training that they are not able to get. Its just they way the world works.
You simply restated what he wrote.

FlameOfCallandor

  • The Walking Dead
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #101 on: January 07, 2007, 01:08:42 PM »
Except my point was that not everyone deserves the same pay. Does anyone actually know a person, who has had a job for more than a year and makes mimimum wage and deserves more

APF

  • Senior Member
Re: Is there any reason that burger flippers should be getting more than $5.15
« Reply #102 on: January 07, 2007, 01:23:27 PM »
The world may not need film students, but I'd argue the world needs art.  Or at least, it's more important than an over-abundance of unhealthy food choices.  I've had low-level jobs, just like most people who have actually had to struggle through their lives; don't try to paint me as this elitist who can't identify--most of my hard-core socialist friends never really had to work a day in their lives and basically live off their trust funds, whereas when I was a kid I actually had to live off food stamps and shit.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2007, 01:25:16 PM by APF »
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