Thoughts on the Trayvon Martin situation?

[Phoenix Dark]

http://news.yahoo.com/family-florida-boy-killed-neighborhood-watch-seeks-arrest-044537742.html

It's been spiraling for a few days now, I'd imagine most folks have heard bits or pieces of things.

Recently there's been some outrage over this


I don't necessarily interpret that as Gereldo blaming the victim here. It strikes me more as an observation of stereotypes and prejudices that are very real. My parents told me many times as a kid never to wear a hoodie over my head at night, for fear of someone calling the police. I walk home from school often at night, and if a white woman is a few feet ahead of me I know she's going to look over her shoulder multiple times, get on her phone, and eventually cross the street; because of this I often change my walking pace and take my hands out of my pockets if I'm wearing a jacket or hoodie. These are stereotypes I've lived with and have been re-enforced by society and as well as my family. It's not abstract or foreign to me, or many black males.

So while I certainly disagree with some of the language used in the video, the overall point he made is simply a reflection of our ugly reality. I definitely think a lot of the reaction to this, especially the various folks wondering whether a white person wearing a hoodie over their head look dangerous, miss the point. As does this nonsensical "I am Trayvon Martin" movement some white people have joined. No, you aren't - and that's the point.

---------------------------

I'd also like to point out It's a shame seeing people on both sides attempting to politicize this, although I think it's fair to say some on the right have taken things beyond politics into pure race whistle nonsense. Newt Gingrich's comments especially strike me as beyond the pale. Drudge is still heavily beating the "racial extremism" factor, attempting to somehow tie Obama to some racism or prejudice against whites because he...acknowledged the racial aspect of the story.
http://nationaljournal.com/2012-presidential-campaign/gingrich-calls-obama-comments-on-trayvon-martin-shooting-disgraceful--20120323

And on the other side, the ambulance chasers have arrived in full force: Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton make just about any incident they enter a circus.

It goes back to the point that unfortunately there is a segment of the country completely invested in denying any adult or non-partisan discussion of race. For years many on the right have essentially argued that by acknowledging racism exists - be it institutional or otherwise - liberals and blacks expose themselves as being the true racists. It's one of the many false equivalencies at work here. Reading comments on various sites I've seen multiple people insinuating Obama and the media are somehow racist for not covering black-on-white crime, specifically the recent case of black teenagers setting a white teen on fire. As if both cases are direct 1:1 comparisons outside of being race motivated crimes.

[Trent Dole]

[Positive Touch]

it's the "post-racial" bullshit that makes most white people think that by consciously trying to ignore race they are better people who are tearing down barriers or some shit.  of course if you point out that they still subscribe to all kinds of nasty racial beliefs they get all pissed off and act like you're the asshole for pointing it out.  pretending like racism doesn't exist makes people see shit as isolated incidents (hence gingrich's ignorant-ass "it could be any kid!" comment) and keeps them from connecting all the bullshit in their own heads.  then what you get is assholes who can't see their own problems and can only see racism as other people's faults (i.e. "they're poor because they just don't want to work!").

as far as trayvon and zimmerman, well i hope that fucker gets his brains pulled out his asshole in prison.  i also hope the local police dept gets tore up and everyone involved at least loses their job.  ideally this would spark a conversation about race and law enforcement that would lead to awesome reforms, but this is america so that ain't gonna happen.

[MrAngryFace]

[Himu]

my thoughts:

1. post-racial philosophy is a crock of shit.
2. as a black male ALWAYS carry id.
3. be careful who you are walking close to. if they are white - especially if they're a WOMAN -  back the fuck off, slow down, and if they treat you suspiciously say hi with a smile.
4. this entire situation is fucked
5. fuck florida

[Mandark]

Between this, the Robert Bales rampage, and the guy shooting kids in France, I've been avoiding the news more deliberately than usual.

[MrAngryFace]

Not to mention the election cycle- etch a sketches? Really?

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Are people assuming George Zimmerman's white half was responsible for the murder?  It's just that I've never seen conservatives so ardently defending an American hispanic before.

Anyway, what Zimmerman did was clearly murder and hopefully justice will be found by the Martin family.

[Dis]

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

There is an eye witness who says it was self defense, like the people who actually investigated the case said. It's so weird that they knew more about what happened than some jackass anchor on MSNBC.

[Himu]

Self defense from what? The kid only had tea and a bag of skittles. Zimmerman patrolled the "neighborhood watch" with a gun. Such extremes aren't necessary. Zimmerman was also told not to follow Martin when he phoned into the police.

The case is pretty clear cut.

Also, eyewitness testimony is never and should never be the end be all in any trial. The human eye is very deceptive. In trial, the only thing that can prove towards innocence is evidence.

[Timber]

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

There is an eye witness who says it was self defense, like the people who actually investigated the case said. It's so weird that they knew more about what happened than some jackass anchor on MSNBC.

cool first post bro

[Himu]

Idk man, I've heard all sorts of conflicting information. Some saying that basically Zimmerman started it all by tackling him, others saying Trayvon actually attacked Zimmerman after being approached and that there is physical evidence to back that up.

Why eyewitness accounts are never - EVER - definitive proof of anything, especially in a case like this.



My stance is that there's probably not enough evidence to convict, but I feel Zimmerman more than likely had no just cause to follow Martin in the first place. The man was even warned not to follow. Zimmerman also had a gun. Martin had a bag of skittles and ice tea. That's all I really need to know.

[Trent Dole]

Tea and Skittles are pretty gangsta.

[Great Rumbler]

This guy had neither the business nor the authority to confront anyone. And, as such, this terrible incident should never have occurred in the first place.

[Himu]

Add one more reason why I hate guns. It gives people a sense of authority and power.

[Phoenix Dark]

The Justice Department apparently has audio of Martin calling 911, which might fuck Zimmerman...

But yea, if they got into a fight and Martin was winning...who knows. It's clear Zimmerman started it, so if he got his ass beat and decided to shoot the kid then smh

[Himu]

Kid walking home from convenience store with tea and skittles.

Versus dude who called the police, told them he was going to follow because the person was suspicious and had a gun.

Who do you think initiated the confrontation?

I won't lay blame on the fight on anyone, because I wasn't there. But Zimmerman had no business following someone just because they have a hoodie on either.

[Phoenix Dark]

I've got a feeling Zimmerman is going to win the case and things will get crazy

[Himu]

I've got a feeling Zimmerman is going to win the case and things will get crazy

rodney king riots part 2

[Mr. Gundam]

I've got a feeling Zimmerman is going to win the case and things will get crazy

I've got the same feeling. 

[Great Rumbler]

In all likelihood Zimmerman, but that isn't definitive. What if Trayvon decided to take a swing at him for asking questions?

Given what we hear from the Zimmerman call, it's more likely that he was being threatening, asserting himself, and may have grabbed the kid to keep him from getting away. More so than just "asking questions," I would think.

[Phoenix Dark]

I've got a feeling Zimmerman is going to win the case and things will get crazy

I've got the same feeling. 

Also kind of makes me wonder about the impact a potential explosion in race relations could have on the election. We could be in for some ugly shit in the coming months. Consider Gingrich's comments, or this bullshit:

Obama and the White House had previously refrained from commenting on the case. Following demands by the New Black Panthers and others on scene in Sanford, Fla. that the White House get involved, Obama jumped into the fight.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/23/obama-comments-on-trayvon-martin-case-after-black-panthers-sharpton-ralliers-bemoan-wh-silence-video/#ixzz1q47hS7gs

[Verdigris Murder]

You're right about the politicisation of the whole matter, it's horrible enough for all involved without making it into something far worse.

It's weird for an outsider looking in, I always thought that the US is actually quite a well blended society when it came to race. In relation to the UK, here it's just bubbling under the surface, and the 'multicultural experiment' was pretty much a disaster. Anyway, I hope it doesn't mean riots for you guys.

[Dickie Dee]

http://tattletailzz.com/2012/03/investigators-are-reviewing-trayvon-martins-call-to-911/

Sooo...apparently we're just learning that Martin called 9/11 too. The evidence of Martin's thuggish behavior keeps mounting!

[Himu]

It's weird for an outsider looking in, I always thought that the US is actually quite a well blended society when it came to race.

Hell no. America is a country that decided that after the civil rights act was signed that racism and sexism was over and that the civil rights movement was dead, but never bothered to tackle these issues head on after that point. The current young adult generation is far more open minded and less racist than past generations because we're exposed to different cultures, types of thinking, and races regularly so long as you dont live in a bubble, but it's still ingrained and very dependent on location.

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

Sounds like murder to me. What's the big deal. Send him to Jail.

[Mandark]

Sounds like murder to me. What's the big deal. Send him to Jail.

The "big deal" is public pressure to get the authorities to do just that, after they had decided to let him walk.  Derp.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

What's up with libertarians and conservatives capitalizing nouns like that?  I think tennin brought this up back in the day.

[close]

[Dickie Dee]

Sounds like murder to me. What's the big deal. Send him to Jail.

The "big deal" is public pressure to get the authorities to do just that, after they had decided to let him walk.  Derp.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

What's up with libertarians and conservatives capitalizing nouns like that?  I think tennin brought this up back in the day.

[close]

Never saw this as a libertarian/conservative thing (almost just cap'd those) my capitization is all over the place - I notice it more at work though.

[ManaByte]

$10,000 bounty on Zimmerman from the New Black Panthers:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-24/news/os-trayvon-martin-new-black-panthers-protest-20120324_1_black-men-justice-new-black-panthers

[Mandark]

God I hope your wife somehow leaves you again.

[recursivelyenumerable]

Sounds like murder to me. What's the big deal. Send him to Jail.

The "big deal" is public pressure to get the authorities to do just that, after they had decided to let him walk.  Derp.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

What's up with libertarians and conservatives capitalizing nouns like that?  I think tennin brought this up back in the day.

[close]

Though I've been reading a lot of Hal Berenson's blog lately and he does the random capitalization thing, yet is a fairly cogent commentator on Microsoft/technology/business matters. I think he is some kind of libertarian and/or conservative politically though. So I have to revise my worldview. It is possible to be a person who does the random capitalization thing and yet provide some degree of intellectual value, at least in non-political fields.

I still kind of think he suffers from the overeagerness to divide the world into fixed categories I associate with that tic, though.

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

Seriously you guys?

[Phoenix Dark]

But starting in 2011, Zimmerman’s calls increasingly focused on what he considered “suspicious” characters walking around the neighborhood—almost all of whom were young black males.

On April 22, 2011, Zimmerman called to report a black male about “7-9” years old, four feet tall, with a “skinny build” and short black hair. There is no indication in the police report of the reason for Zimmerman’s suspicion of the boy.

On Aug. 3 of last year, Zimmerman reported a black male who he believed was “involved in recent” burglaries in the neighborhood.

And on Oct. 1 he reported two black male suspects “20-30” years old, in a white Chevrolet Impala. He told police he did “not recognize” the men or their vehicle and that he was concerned because of the recent burglaries.

Despite the frequency of his calls to the police, Zimmerman had only become a member of the neighborhood watch in September 2011. In fact, Twin Lakes’ neighborhood watch itself did not exist before then, according to Wendy Dorival, volunteer coordinator for the Sanford Police Department.

Dorival first met with Twin Lakes residents to give a neighborhood-watch presentation on the evening of Sept. 22. The meeting was initiated by a call from Zimmerman, she said.

“He was the one who contacted me at first to get it started there,” Dorival said.

Dorival recalled that about two dozen residents showed up to hear her speak about the responsibilities of neighborhood-watch volunteers.

“There were about three or four burglaries that had happened that people were upset about, and that’s what initiated me to get out there for them to start a neighborhood watch,” Dorival said.

Part of the instruction Dorival gives new volunteers, she said, includes when to call 911 and when to call non-emergency numbers. Both lines go to the same operator, Dorival told the Daily Beast, but the different numbers allow the operator to triage calls.

According to the instructional materials prepared by the Sanford police department, one of Zimmerman’s responsibilities as neighborhood watch coordinator was to act as a liaison between the Sanford police and the neighborhood-watch volunteers. A police slideshow (PDF) Dorival screened at her presentation says the neighborhood watch is “NOT the vigilante police.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/23/did-trayvon-shooter-abuse-911.html

[Dickie Dee]

Suspicious 8 year old, really

[MyNameIsMethodis]

http://t.co/G5wLUltl
rip sweet prince

[Phoenix Dark]

the pic is apparently fake.

[Himu]

Holy fuck @ suspicious 8 year old

[Dickie Dee]

Interview with witness of Sanford teen shooting death

worth watching the whole thing

[Madrun Badrun]

Man, if I get shot by a crazy I hope people don't dig up that picture of me in a trench coat and no pants.

[Joe Molotov]

Suspicious 7 year old 

[Verdigris Murder]

Muhammad said the group's national chairman, Dr. Malik Zulu Shabaz of Washington, D.C. is receiving donations from black entertainers and athletes. They hope to collect $1 million by next week, Muhammad said.

I find that bleakly hilarious.

Also Malik Zulu Shabaz. It's like he stuck his hands into a name tombola, and had temporal lobe epilepsy at the same time. Also probably not very bright.

[Great Rumbler]

the pic is apparently fake.

A reverse image search on Google only brings up a few obscure forums. All of which are seem quite full of racially-charged rhetoric, to put things mildly.

Edit: Looks like the image came from the Facebook page for a different Treyvon Martin, took a bit of digging to find that bit of information.

[Himu]

Muhammad said the group's national chairman, Dr. Malik Zulu Shabaz of Washington, D.C. is receiving donations from black entertainers and athletes. They hope to collect $1 million by next week, Muhammad said.

I find that bleakly hilarious.

Also Malik Zulu Shabaz. It's like he stuck his hands into a name tombola, and had temporal lobe epilepsy at the same time. Also probably not very bright.

You do realize that Malik and Shabazz are common arabic names, right? And Zulu is a common African name.

[Verdigris Murder]

Muhammad said the group's national chairman, Dr. Malik Zulu Shabaz of Washington, D.C. is receiving donations from black entertainers and athletes. They hope to collect $1 million by next week, Muhammad said.

I find that bleakly hilarious.

Also Malik Zulu Shabaz. It's like he stuck his hands into a name tombola, and had temporal lobe epilepsy at the same time. Also probably not very bright.

You do realize that Malik and Shabazz are common arabic names, right? And Zulu is a common African name.

Yep. But the context is all the fun.

[Phoenix Dark]

NBPP are pathetic, and sully the original Black Panther party name. I've dealt with them on two occasions (school related), each time was met with casual casual ignorance that I had to gtfo before getting too pissed

[Boogie]

I've got a feeling Zimmerman is going to win the case and things will get crazy

Reasonable doubt is a bitch.


Anyway, apart from the racial thing, this speaks once more to the poisonous effect of America's gun culture (moreso than just its gun laws).  America's gun culture has created these people who have such a hard-on for the idea of using their gun in self-defence, that it becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy that they will seek out such a scenario to use it.

You cannot (in a sane world) initiate a confrontation through unreasonable actions, and then claim self-defence when shit goes sideways on you.  From what I've heard on this (and like Mandark, I've been semi-deliberately avoiding too much about this and the French thing), this dude should be facing charges.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

So Boogie, are you saying that Trayvon Martin was a plant designed to get rid of guns in the United States, that he egged on Zimmerman to lose his shit and start shooting at him, and that Obama probably put Martin up to it?!?!?!?

[Boogie]

Yes.  Yes I am.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

As dumb and crazy as my last post is, we'll see a lot dumber and certainly more crazier posts like that when this thing rolls out.

So I'm just going to stand back, not touch the issue with a 10 foot pole anymore, and just see what happens.

[Boogie]

Here's another example of how fucked up American gun culture is.

We occasionally bring US officers up here for meetings and briefings and the like for joint investigations.  Obviously, because they have no standing in Canada, they can't bring their sidearms into the country.

There have been instances where the US guys are downright nervous and freaking because they're unarmed.  To just be sitting in plainclothes in a coffee shop in the suburbs of Toronto like anyone else and to be sweating because you don't have a gun on your hip.  That's fucked up to me.

I never carry off duty (for one thing, it's a bit of a grey area in Canadian law and policy), and I never give it a second thought.

(I acknowledge the difference in that America has higher crime and violence rates then us in Soviet Canuckistan, but I'm still never nervous when walking about on vacation in the US)

[Madrun Badrun]

ya but you're a bear-man who doesn't need a gun for protection so why would you be nervous unarmed?

[Boogie]

As dumb and crazy as my last post is, we'll see a lot dumber and certainly more crazier posts like that when this thing rolls out.

A year ago, we suffered through the "yeah, that's what you get for Pearl Harbour, Japan!" facebook and twitter posts following the earthquake and Tsunami.

I'm pretty sure that after that, there's no level of stupidity on the internet that can surprise me.

[Boogie]

ya but you're a bear-man who doesn't need a gun for protection so why would you be nervous unarmed?

Fair point.

[Boogie]

Pretty sure the vast majority of Americans feel comfortable without fire arms, kinda painting in broad strokes, my man.

No shit, Spencer.

I'm talking about specific aspects and examples of America's gun culture.

To say "America has a fucked up gun culture" isn't to say "every American has a hard-on for guns."

If anything, it sounds like a problem with American officers, not Americans.

And gun-toting American Neighborhood Watch leaders, apparently.

[Boogie]

Thanks for clarifying while not being a dick take a chill pill, friend

But I am a dick.  Don't try to change me, bro.

[Phoenix Dark]

Here's another example of how fucked up American gun culture is.

We occasionally bring US officers up here for meetings and briefings and the like for joint investigations.  Obviously, because they have no standing in Canada, they can't bring their sidearms into the country.

There have been instances where the US guys are downright nervous and freaking because they're unarmed.  To just be sitting in plainclothes in a coffee shop in the suburbs of Toronto like anyone else and to be sweating because you don't have a gun on your hip.  That's fucked up to me.

I never carry off duty (for one thing, it's a bit of a grey area in Canadian law and policy), and I never give it a second thought.

(I acknowledge the difference in that America has higher crime and violence rates then us in Soviet Canuckistan, but I'm still never nervous when walking about on vacation in the US)

A family friend of ours used to be a police officer in Detroit and had a similar story. He said he had to work with Canadian authorities alongside some guys from Ann Arbor, MI. The Ann Arbor guys took it as an opportunity to bug out because they couldn't carry their guns, while he was sitting there laughing. This is a guy who used to patrol the east side of Detroit, he's seen crazy shit. And yet Ann Arbor cops who basically help old ladies cross the street most of the day were shook about being in Canada.

[Boogie]

Can I quote this West Wing clip without it being taken as a smear against all Americans?  Or as me being a dick to Spencer?

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I grew up with guns laying around everywhere but never thought to touch them.  They've never really interested me I guess.

You know, I'm glad Kentuckybore is around because otherwise, I probably had the most redneck upbringing here.

[Madrun Badrun]

To be fair I know how Boogie feels.  It seems incredibly odd to me that there is no aspect of guns being a problem in discussions about this event.  If this had happened in Canada the discourse would have been about guns and racism not just the latter.

[Boogie]

I honestly don't have anything to say to that other than I guess it explains why you went into law enforcement.

 

If you knew me on the job, this would be hilarious.  I once arrested a dude in front of his wife and cousin, and five minutes later, they were shaking my hand and thanking me for how I treated them with dignity and respect.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that because I talk shit on the internet that it mirrors how I behave in a professional capacity.  Unless you believe that Drinky trolling ninthings on GAF is an accurate predictor of his social interactions IRL.  (okay, maybe bad example  )