Thoughts on the Trayvon Martin situation?

[Boogie]

I don't know Boogie, it's hard to reply to anything you say knowing you're probably about to change it.

Huh?

90% of the editing I do to my posts is just adding thoughts, not changing or deleting shit.

[Boogie]

Okay. But how can I judge you other than the way you portray yourself to me?

Spencer, sometimes I believe you post some stupid shit.  When you do, I say so.  As we have discussed before, I say the same to other members here, and they don't get all twisted and upset over it.

Sometimes I have posted stupid shit myself.  And when I do, I have gotten ridiculed for it as well.  But I get over it.

But The Bore is not a place I choose to play Sanitized Diplomat.


I don't hate you, I don't have a grudge against you.  I'm just not going to treat your posts with kids' gloves anymore than I would with anyone else.

Do you not feel you represent yourself as an officer just because you're not wearing your badge?

Does every post Billy Rygar makes have to be viewed within the lense of a sommelier?

Does every post Drinky makes have to be taken as representative of a Microsoft employee?

Does every post PD or FoC make have to be taken as representing budding accountants?

Do you take every post by The Business as representing an NCO in the United States Army?

No?

Didn't think so.

[Boogie]

Man, you certainly are confrontational for a keeper of the peace.

Dude, you must have been stoned as fuck during the Green Shinobi and Ichirou eras.

2012 Boogie is Calm Boogie in comparison to that shit.

[Mr. Gundam]

Call me naive but I really don't understand why anyone other than a police officer should be carrying a gun.  I know people say it's to deter criminals or something, but having grown up in Canada and now having lived in Japan, it seems to me the crime rates in both countries aren't wildly out of control with unarmed citizens.

I agree with you to some extent, but it's in our constitution, so good luck ever getting people to give them up here.

[Boogie]

Call me naive but I really don't understand why anyone other than a police officer should be carrying a gun.  I know people say it's to deter criminals or something, but having grown up in Canada and now having lived in Japan, it seems to me the crime rates in both countries aren't wildly out of control with unarmed citizens.

Let me be clear.  I do not necessarily believe outright that America's gun control laws (or lack thereof) are, in and of themselves, solely responsible for the United States having a homicide rate that is five times higher than EVERY OTHER FIRST WORLD COUNTRY.

But I absolutely believe that it has to be on the table as a factor for discussion on the subject.

As to your specific post:  I grew up in a relatively "redneck" area of Ontario.  Small farming town.  My grandfather, and several of my cousins, are deeply involved in hunting culture.  So I respect that.

But, outside of hunting weapons, I agree with you in broad strokes.  I don't see the need for a society to have anyone other than its law enforcement officers and soldiers armed.  Allow for hunters and collectors to own  firearms with appropriate safeguards.  Other than that, why consider firearms to be a "right", when we consider driving a car to be a "privilege"?

[Himu]

Call me naive but I really don't understand why anyone other than a police officer should be carrying a gun.  I know people say it's to deter criminals or something, but having grown up in Canada and now having lived in Japan, it seems to me the crime rates in both countries aren't wildly out of control with unarmed citizens.

It's in the constitution! You can't take away our guns!

That being said, that was all and well over 200 years ago so of course it still applies to us in 2012!

[Great Rumbler]

I've never felt the need to carry a gun on my person and I'm one of the most nervous worrywarts ever. I'd be too scared to actually draw and use the gun anyway, if I ever got into a situation where I'd need one. Not that I ever would get myself into a situation where I'd ever need one, because, despite what the media would have us believe, being attacked in the street or the local coffee shop in broad daylight isn't a common occurrence.

[Himu]

I'm a filthy hippie in that I don't think anyone really NEEDS to have a gun on their person - at least in a first world country - outside of police, soldiers, hunters in sanctioned hunting zones, and collectors.

Though I was always a solid marksman, I've never really been one for guns outside of water guns and guns that are in vidya. I didn't even like paintball growing up. I'm just a pacifist, I guess.

[Boogie]

I didn't even like paintball growing up. I'm just a pacifist, I guess.

Pussy.

[Himu]

Yup.

Paintball was okay. The first time I played my butt got hit. That stung.

I like laser tag, though!

[Boogie]

 Isn't a knife supposed to be more deadly within a certain range anyway?

It's not so cut-and-dry as that, but in training we are drilled that when faced with an edged weapon to create as much space as possible between you and the threat.

Or, put another way:  both are equally deadly, but the advantage to a firearm is that it is just as deadly at range.  Take away the distance, and that advantage is neutralized.


edit: enjoy your movie.

[Boogie]

Omg who fucking sits right behind someone in a nearly empty theater. Fml

 

spoiler (click to show/hide)

it's just a DEA agent that I tipped off to monitor your text messaging.  Pay him no mind. 

[close]

[Trent Dole]

Well this thread hit bin status pretty quickly. Honestly there should already be some rioting going on over this. The UK folks dealt with a similar situation to this one by lighting up everything in sight.

[Madrun Badrun]

Omg who fucking sits right behind someone in a nearly empty theater. Fml

Spencer you smell lovely.

[Himu]

Well this thread hit bin status pretty quickly. Honestly there should already be some rioting going on over this. The UK folks dealt with a similar situation to this one by lighting up everything in sight.

Right, and this situation has shown that violence, entitlement, and "justice" are the solutions to all of life's problems.

[Boogie]

Well this thread hit bin status pretty quickly. Honestly there should already be some rioting going on over this. The UK folks dealt with a similar situation to this one by lighting up everything in sight.

Suuuure, except  Mark Duggan was a drug dealer, a founding member of a London gang, and suspected of plotting a revenge attack following the fatal stabbing of his cousin, and was in possession of a gun when he was shot by a UK police officer.

Y'know, minor details 'n shit.

[Positive Touch]

Call me naive but I really don't understand why anyone other than a police officer should be carrying a gun.  I know people say it's to deter criminals or something, but having grown up in Canada and now having lived in Japan, it seems to me the crime rates in both countries aren't wildly out of control with unarmed citizens.

Let me be clear.  I do not necessarily believe outright that America's gun control laws (or lack thereof) are, in and of themselves, solely responsible for the United States having a homicide rate that is five times higher than EVERY OTHER FIRST WORLD COUNTRY.

But I absolutely believe that it has to be on the table as a factor for discussion on the subject.

As to your specific post:  I grew up in a relatively "redneck" area of Ontario.  Small farming town.  My grandfather, and several of my cousins, are deeply involved in hunting culture.  So I respect that.

But, outside of hunting weapons, I agree with you in broad strokes.  I don't see the need for a society to have anyone other than its law enforcement officers and soldiers armed.  Allow for hunters and collectors to own  firearms with appropriate safeguards.  Other than that, why consider firearms to be a "right", when we consider driving a car to be a "privilege"?

the u.s. just loves guns, period, but the majority of guns-for-protection crowd is driven by insane fears.  in some areas it's "omg the black/brown people!" and in others it's "omg the government!" and the closer you get to zimmerman-level crazy the closer you are to killing someone around you. 

add into that extreme wealth disparities and a fucked up judicial system with its priorities in the wrong places and hey you've got a culture that's really prone to violence

[Mandark]

C'mon Boogie, think of how much easier your job would be if you could farm out half the work to watchful, gun-wielding citizen deputies!  Don't be a wet blanket.

[Trent Dole]

Right, and this situation has shown that violence, entitlement, and "justice" are the solutions to all of life's problems.

Well they're not, obviously, I'm just sayin' is all.

Suuuure, except  Mark Duggan was a drug dealer, a founding member of a London gang, and suspected of plotting a revenge attack following the fatal stabbing of his cousin, and was in possession of a gun when he was shot by a UK police officer.

Y'know, minor details 'n shit.

Minor.

[Mr. Gundam]

I have no desire to own a gun, but the NRA has too much lobbying power here, it's not happening.

[cool breeze]

I carry around an unloaded gun to pistol whip attackers

[Madrun Badrun]

I have no desire to own a gun, but the NRA has too much lobbying power here, it's not happening.

It's not so much that it can't be done but rather that it isn't even a question to be asked on TV discussions etc.  That's the gun culture that Boogie is talking about.  People should be talking about guns in some way here and as far as I've seen it hasn't happened.

[Himu]

Right, and this situation has shown that violence, entitlement, and "justice" are the solutions to all of life's problems.

Well they're not, obviously, I'm just sayin' is all.

This thing has already blown racial relations out the water. Do you want to nuke them, too? How does rioting help anyone? Will it bring back Trayvon? No. Will it cause civil unrest and cause the police and fire departments to clean up after people? Yes. Will it cause people to be MORE hostile towards minorities which was probably one of the main things that caused this accident to begin with? Yes. Is it another case of people taking justice into their own hands, like what happened with this case? Abso-fucking-lutely. Will lives be lost? More than likely. Who do you think will likely riot? White people? lol. White people will see a bunch of black people on tv rioting, scared out of their minds, and become even more hostile when I'm walking behind them in broad fucking daylight.

Rioting has just cause under certain and specific situations. This is not one of them. Rioting will only serve to prove other people right and divide America further.

[Momo]

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/national/south/view/20120324trayvon_martin_cases_myths_half_truths

https://twitter.com/#!/adamsbaldwin/status/183934839261626368

[Verdigris Murder]

Omg who fucking sits right behind someone in a nearly empty theater. Fml

My favourite post of today.

[Mandark]

From my FB feed.  Debating whether to PM the guy letting him know it's fake, or do the smart thing and stay away.

[Mr. Gundam]

(Image removed from quote.)

From my FB feed.  Debating whether to PM the guy letting him know it's fake, or do the smart thing and stay away.

Rake the fucker through the coals publicly.

[Barry Egan]

It's cool that you keep your facebook open to people of every political persuasion but yeesh that is gross. 

[Phoenix Dark]

(another fake pic)

yup...I'm not letting any of that slide on facebook. Haven't seen anything stupid though, outside of white people posting pics of themselves in hoodies asking "do I look dangerous?"

[Joe Molotov]

You should post the super, for-reals Trayvon facebook pic that the LEFT-WING CONSPIRACY doesn't want you to see:

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

[MyNameIsMethodis]

just looks your neighborly friendly black person to me 

[Himu]

(Image removed from quote.)

From my FB feed.  Debating whether to PM the guy letting him know it's fake, or do the smart thing and stay away.

i like how he assumes that because they're black they clearly look alike because clearly black people only have one skin tone hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Joe Molotov]

(Image removed from quote.)

From my FB feed.  Debating whether to PM the guy letting him know it's fake, or do the smart thing and stay away.

i like how he assumes that because they're black they clearly look alike because clearly black people only have one skin tone hurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Obviously you haven't heard that the liberal media lightened his skin tone to make him look innocent!

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40108_Wingnut_Conspiracy_Theory_of_the_Day-_Trayvon_Photo_Was_Lightened_to_Make_Him_Look_Innocent

[Trent Dole]

yup...I'm not letting any of that slide on facebook. Haven't seen anything stupid though, outside of white people posting pics of themselves in hoodies asking "do I look dangerous?"

Tell them that they would if they had a bag of skittles and some iced tea. 

[tiesto]

There's just so much misinformation and overexaggeration going around from both sides of the debate that I have no idea what to believe anymore. Still, it's extremely sad what happened to the kid.

[Himu]

How has their been exaggeration by people on trayvon's side? Are you fucking kidding me

[Hock]

The guys in those pictures don't even look like the kid, wtf?

[MrAngryFace]

How many weirdo calls to the police about "suspicious" people before you're flagged as probably being a nutjob?

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

Some news sources are saying that Zimmerman might have been attacked and suffered a broken nose. That would change a lot in the case.

[Hock]

Some news sources are saying that Zimmerman might have been attacked and suffered a broken nose. That would change a lot in the case.

That is pretty pertinent info if true,  but why did it take this long for that to come out?

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

Some news sources are saying that Zimmerman might have been attacked and suffered a broken nose. That would change a lot in the case.

That is pretty pertinent info if true,  but why did it take this long for that to come out?

Probably because the whole ordeal is just a circus and a lot of the media is trying to paint some racially charged picture. It's an awful situation because a young boy died and another man probably won't get a fair trial.

[Himu]

Yes, a man is following you in his car, then chases after you on foot, finally confronts you after losing him. It really does change the situation completely, Martin didn't have any right to be defensive at all.

[Joe Molotov]

Some news sources are saying that Zimmerman might have been attacked and suffered a broken nose. That would change a lot in the case.

If some crazy, paranoid dude starts harassing you in the street and you pop him in the nose, that makes it okay to kill you?

[Himu]

Someone punches you, it's okay to take out a gun and shoot them.

[Himu]

Some news sources are saying that Zimmerman might have been attacked and suffered a broken nose. That would change a lot in the case.

That is pretty pertinent info if true,  but why did it take this long for that to come out?

Probably because the whole ordeal is just a circus and a lot of the media is trying to paint some racially charged picture. It's an awful situation because a young boy died and another man probably won't get a fair trial.

Race has nothing to do with this, I agree. People who are walking home minding their own business should always be considered suspicious. I'm sure that, if he were not black, Zimmerman would have just reason to find Trayvon just as suspicious.

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

I wasn't trying to take sides, just point out relevant info. I'm definitely not trying to make excusses for how Zimmerman acted.

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

Someone punches you, it's okay to take out a gun and shoot them.

Well if you fear for you life and it was unprovoked, I absolutely agree with the right to use deadly force to stop an assailant. Those aren't the conditions of this case, but I just wanted to point that out.

But they might be the conditions if there is more evidence that comes out.

I guess my point is that there is a lot that armchair lawyers here don't know about the situation.

[Himu]

Unprovoked? Did you get the part where the dude stalked Martin and continued to chase him for practically no reason? Despite the fact police told him they're on their way and there was no reason to follow?

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

Unprovoked? Did you get the part where the dude stalked Martin and continued to chase him for practically no reason? Despite the fact police told him they're on their way and there was no reason to follow?

The guy (Zimmerman) was definitely a dumb shit and overzealous, but being a dumb shit isn't illegal.

[MrAngryFace]

[Himu]

Someone punches you, it's okay to take out a gun and shoot them.

Well if you fear for you life and it was unprovoked, I absolutely agree with the right to use deadly force to stop an assailant. Those aren't the conditions of this case, but I just wanted to point that out.

But they might be the conditions if there is more evidence that comes out.

I guess my point is that there is a lot that armchair lawyers here don't know about the situation.

Zimmerman, 26, weighs over 100 pounds over Martin, who is 17 and skinny.

Zimmerman, is armed.

Martin had skittles and tea.

It does not take an "armchair lawyer" to deduce what happened, especially after the light of Martin's call to his girlfriend came about weeks ago.

[Himu]

Unprovoked? Did you get the part where the dude stalked Martin and continued to chase him for practically no reason? Despite the fact police told him they're on their way and there was no reason to follow?

The guy (Zimmerman) was definitely a dumb shit and overzealous, but being a dumb shit isn't illegal.

It should be when you refused arrest years ago and you're still legally allowed to carry a gun.

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

FoC, I agree one should consider all possibilities, but it seems pretty clear with the concrete evidence we do have that at the very least Zimmerman was a hammer out looking for a nail.

Oh, most definitely thats the case. But I was just pointing out that we DON't have all the concrete evidence and it's easy for us to make it out as a with hunt.

[Joe Molotov]

Unprovoked? Did you get the part where the dude stalked Martin and continued to chase him for practically no reason? Despite the fact police told him they're on their way and there was no reason to follow?

The guy (Zimmerman) was definitely a dumb shit and overzealous, but being a dumb shit isn't illegal.

Well, in some cases, yeah it is.

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

It sounds like Himu was there. Maybe he'll get called as a witness and shed some light for us.

[Himu]

We don't have concrete evidence?

Zimmerman calls the police, tells them that someone is looking suspicious and it's a kid. He just says that the kid is looking at houses. The kid isn't breaking into any houses, he's not vandalizing any cars. He's just looking at houses. And yet he looks "suspicious" and that "they always get away".

He's told to not follow despite being told not to.

He is carrying a gun and is a wannabe cop.

Martin is walking home with tea and skittles. It's raining, his hood is up.

Zimmerman follows and chases after Martin. Martin runs away. Clearly because he ran he must be up to no good!

Martin calls his girlfriend, tells her he met a crazy man who chased him for no reason. The call is interrupted by Zimmerman, she hears what's going on. "Why are you following me?" "What are you doing here?"

They scuffle. Gunshot.

Clearly, no evidence.

1. Zimmerman had a history with paranoia and racial profiling before.
2. Zimmerman has a history of a bad attitude, violence, gun obsession, and is a wannabe cop.
3. Zimmerman is told by the "neighborhood watch" group or whatever, NO GUNS.
4. Zimmerman is a paranoid maniac, calling 911 a total of 40 times in just a few years.
5. Martin was unarmed.
6. Zimmermand was armed.
7. Zimmerman stalked and chased Martin.
8. Martin calls his girlfriend, she hears what goes down.
9. Zimmerman confronts Martin for no reason. Hmmmm I wonder why.
10. They fight.
11. Zimmerman feels that it's his "right" to take out his gun. Not fire a warning shot. Not to intimidate, but to kill.
12. Martin cries for help.
13. Zimmmerman kills a 17 year old boy after pleaing for his life.
14. You and Spencer are fucking idiots.

[FlameofCallandorReturns]

Unprovoked? Did you get the part where the dude stalked Martin and continued to chase him for practically no reason? Despite the fact police told him they're on their way and there was no reason to follow?

The guy (Zimmerman) was definitely a dumb shit and overzealous, but being a dumb shit isn't illegal.

Here's the relevant part that was pointed out to me by a lawyer friend.  From the description of what was happening under Florida law it could just as easily be shown that Trayvon was acting in self defense, since he was being pursued by an armed assailant.

True, and I think that's an excellent argument.

[Dickie Dee]

Unprovoked? Did you get the part where the dude stalked Martin and continued to chase him for practically no reason? Despite the fact police told him they're on their way and there was no reason to follow?

The guy (Zimmerman) was definitely a dumb shit and overzealous, but being a dumb shit isn't illegal.

Here's the relevant part that was pointed out to me by a lawyer friend.  From the description of what was happening under Florida law it could just as easily be shown that Trayvon was acting in self defense, since he was being pursued by an armed assailant.

But he wasn't carrying a gun and therefore has no rights

[Himu]

Excuse me Bud, how am I a fucking idiot? I never once said I didn't think it was Zimmermans fault.

Someone punches you, it's okay to take out a gun and shoot them.

Well if you fear for you life and it was unprovoked, I absolutely agree with the right to use deadly force to stop an assailant. Those aren't the conditions of this case, but I just wanted to point that out.

You are clearly defending Zimmerman here, despite all evidence suggesting and even showing that he was originally chasing Martin. On the phone call he even admitted as such. If he had been attacked unprovoked and THEN gave chase? That'd make sense. But Zimmerman didn't even mention it on the phone call. He was chasing someone for looking "suspicious" who wasn't doing anything and yet you're defending an action about using lethal force if attacked unprovoked when all evidence shows that Zimmerman started the confrontation to begin with.

That is why you are an idiot.

FOC is an even bigger idiot by trying to convince people that no, race had nothing to do with this.

[Himu]

Also, no. Race has nothing to do with the fact that Zimmerman was not arrested.

Even if the situation WAS sketchy, he should have been arrested because he KILLED A MAN and a trial has to judge whether or not it was with malice or through self defense.

The fact that this man is not in jail now is indefensible.