Really good write up from the SSASS on Christianity

[Himu]

http://www.ssass.org/2012/07/christianity-isnt-immoral-its-amoral.html

Figured this would be good for some discussion. Don't normally post religion stuff here, but it'd be interesting read opinions on the piece.

[Freyj]

So be Catholic.

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Please don't

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[Atramental]

"It doesn’t matter what the rules are because you don’t have to follow the rules."

When I came to this realization that's when my Christian faith slowly started to deteriorate.

Christians in my social circle always stated how great it is that they are "saved by grace through faith and not by works." Yeah it's "great" because you can be a human piece of shit all of your life and still go to heaven because you believed that Jesus saved you. And on the flip side, you can cure AIDs, cancer, and defeat world hunger yet still go to hell because you didn't believe that Jesus was your savior.

It just blows my mind that people think that this is a good and just thing...

[Great Rumbler]

Yeah it's "great" because you can be a human piece of shit all of your life and still go to heaven because you believed that Jesus saved you.

But that's not what it says in the New Testament at all...

[Mandark]

Where's PD with one of those Did Not Read gifs he's been posting?

[Great Rumbler]

[Atramental]

Yeah it's "great" because you can be a human piece of shit all of your life and still go to heaven because you believed that Jesus saved you.

But that's not what it says in the New Testament at all...

Well... that depends how you interpret certain passages.

[Mr. Gundam]

"It doesn’t matter what the rules are because you don’t have to follow the rules."

When I came to this realization that's when my Christian faith slowly started to deteriorate.

Christians in my social circle always stated how great it is that they are "saved by grace through faith and not by works." Yeah it's "great" because you can be a human piece of shit all of your life and still go to heaven because you believed that Jesus saved you. And on the flip side, you can cure AIDs, cancer, and defeat world hunger yet still go to hell because you didn't believe that Jesus was your savior.

It just blows my mind that people think that this is a good and just thing...

I know you had a bad experience with Christianity, but you can be a good person who does good things and be a Christian. Shocking, I know.

I'm not a huge fan of organized religion, but I know plenty of awesome people who are religious.

[Eel O'Brian]

[Atramental]

"It doesn’t matter what the rules are because you don’t have to follow the rules."

When I came to this realization that's when my Christian faith slowly started to deteriorate.

Christians in my social circle always stated how great it is that they are "saved by grace through faith and not by works." Yeah it's "great" because you can be a human piece of shit all of your life and still go to heaven because you believed that Jesus saved you. And on the flip side, you can cure AIDs, cancer, and defeat world hunger yet still go to hell because you didn't believe that Jesus was your savior.

It just blows my mind that people think that this is a good and just thing...

I know you had a bad experience with Christianity, but you can be a good person who does good things and be a Christian. Shocking, I know.

I'm not a huge fan of organized religion, but I know plenty of awesome people who are religious.

I'm not denying that.

I'm just saying that it is possible (within the context of Christianity) to be a complete fuck up as a Christian and still be saved (i.e. the prodigal son) or you can be a complete fuck up throughout most of your life and have a death bed conversion.

This is what I was taught. You guys might've been taught differently because Christianity does have various sects with various doctrines, beliefs, and interpretations of scripture.

[Human Snorenado]

"It doesn’t matter what the rules are because you don’t have to follow the rules."

When I came to this realization that's when my Christian faith slowly started to deteriorate.

Christians in my social circle always stated how great it is that they are "saved by grace through faith and not by works." Yeah it's "great" because you can be a human piece of shit all of your life and still go to heaven because you believed that Jesus saved you. And on the flip side, you can cure AIDs, cancer, and defeat world hunger yet still go to hell because you didn't believe that Jesus was your savior.

It just blows my mind that people think that this is a good and just thing...

I know you had a bad experience with Christianity, but you can be a good person who does good things and be a Christian. Shocking, I know.

I'm not a huge fan of organized religion, but I know plenty of awesome people who are religious.

That's nice and all, but in my opinion these days it's not enough to be "a nice Christian that isn't a bigot and does good things for people" or whatever.  If you really want to start changing my very, very low opinion of your religion, I'd like to see you (note I'm not saying "you" as in "you, distantmantra" here) going out of your way to directly get in the face of and challenge the people who give your religion a bad name.

[Mandark]

Maybe.  But at some point you start getting into "WHERE ARE THE MODERATE MUSLIMZ!?" territory.

Which I know is different cause Muslims are a minority in developed countries and subject to being marginalized, yadda yadda.  But Christianity's big enough that you can self-identify and worship as a Christian without directly enabling the bigots, and life's enough of a bitch without being held responsible for the behavior of your co-religionists.

[Himu]

The problem with Christianity is that until recently, it really wasn't termed "Christianity". It was Evangelist, Baptist, Protestant, Catholic;etc. Now, people lump them all together despite having completely different beliefs and different resolves aside from the one single unification: Jesus Christ. So when Catholics start abusing young children and start getting away with it without any repercussions, people are going to label it as "Christian" and not prominently Catholic.

But this just reinforces Triumph's point about moderate Christians not really speaking up and letting extremists high jack their religion. I think a fair person would argue that most Christians - at least in the west - are of moderate principles and that fundamentalists are a minority, yet a highly vocal minority. Moderates claim to say and do one thing, but when shit hits the fan, and their voices are needed in light of people without faith, or of another faith entirely, they are nowhere to be seen.

Oh sure! You'll find the occasional church with a rainbow flag waving, but is that really enough of a statement? I don't think it is. I agree with Triumph in that moderates tend to be enablers.

And your point about moderate Muslims makes no sense, because there are plenty of moderate muslims in western countries and the difference between them and moderate Christians is that for the most part, they really do stand up for their views and principles in light of extremism. But a bulk of moderate Muslims, I've found, depending on country or culture of origin, makes some prejudicial claim against Jews.

[Mr. Gundam]

You guys need to come up to the North. Aside from Mars Hill, Seattle churches are mostly progressive, pro-gay rights, pro-environment, pro-social justice, etc. They protest, they make their voices heard against the haters.

You want an example of parishoners pushing back? The Washington Cahtolic Diocese is against Referendum 74, which would legalize gay marriage. Most Seattle Catholic church-goers are telling the leadership to go fuck themselves. They're also in support of the "crazy liberal nuns who destroy to the religious order," according to the dudes in charge.

Also, my wife (born and raised in the ELCA Lutheran church) and I are volunteering for Washington United for Marriage. This summer, we've stood on street corners with our daughter in support of Referndum 74. I've got the summer off, might as well do some good with it. She was too little for Pride this year, but we're marching with our gay friends next year.

Shit, I have Mormon friends who marched in Seattle Pride this year with their families in support of Gay Marriage in Washington.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Group-gathers-to-support-Catholic-nuns-152906555.html
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/seattles-best-christians/Content?oid=14030626
http://abcnews.go.com/US/seattle-churches-refuse-petition-reverse-gay-marriage-law/story?id=16140654#.UA4f-rRDySo


I guess we should just stop, cause it's not good enough.

[Himu]

I didn't say people should stop. I think those are very great things. I'm talking specifically about the public space, particularly in the media. Progressive Christianity like that rarely makes the news, or offers rebuttals to inane statements said by people with extreme views or even makes it known to many people that such a Christianity is our there. Maybe that's the media itself, which tends to go for bad apples rather than people with good intentions, but I don't think that progressive Christianity advertises nearly as well as the kooks which is one of the major reasons why young adults are turning away from Christianity in droves, I think. If they realized there was a more progressive, more tolerant option, I think they'd stick around.

[Mr. Gundam]

I'm not even a Christian, I just go with my wife to church out of respect.

[Mr. Gundam]

JESUS COUNTS YOU

He'd count me someday when some crazy Mormon comes along and baptizes me.






And you.

[Himu]

At least you'll be in heaven.

[Human Snorenado]

Gundam- keep in mind that myself and Himumu are from the south, so I'd say probably about 95%+ of our experiences with organized Christianity can be termed "fucking awful"

[Mr. Gundam]

Gundam- keep in mind that myself and Himumu are from the south, so I'd say probably about 95%+ of our experiences with organized Christianity can be termed "fucking awful"

Yeah, that's why I said come up North. Outside the city we still have crazy creepy mega churches with Sunday morning Christians, but here in the city it's wayyy better.

It's sad that a following based on loving and accepting each other has been hijacked by hatred and bigotry.

[DCharlieJP]

You want an example of parishoners pushing back? The Washington Cahtolic Diocese is against Referendum 74, which would legalize gay marriage. Most Seattle Catholic church-goers are telling the leadership to go fuck themselves. They're also in support of the "crazy liberal nuns who destroy to the religious order," according to the dudes in charge.

the problem is that you then have people chosing what to believe and - in this case - going what is dictated by the Pope/God.

If you don't follow the church's ideas, there IS no church. Just build communities around good social practices and abandon the wizard in the sky side of it all.

[Brehvolution]

It is important to me that my mental state exists into eternity. Sky wizard gives me this opportunity, plus I'm special.

[Eel O'Brian]

this is the kind of conversation that makes me excuse myself at parties to "freshen my drink" and then just never come back

[Himu]

i have never heard of anyone who brings up christianity being amoral at parties

[Eel O'Brian]

religion, politics, sure-fire partykillers for the senior troll

[Himu]

people never talk about religion or politics beyond praying at parties i go to. i'm lucky because if someone made some stupid political or religious fervor at a party I don't know if I could contain myself to strike down every thing they say.

[Eel O'Brian]

it's mostly political debate as you get older, and that's another great discussion topic which will have me in the driveway trying to inch around that asshole who parked right on my bumper

[Diunx]

[Momo]

[Stoney Mason]

I was recently in an xbox live party when a friend of a friend joined it. He was some young white kid from Georgia. (by kid I mean he was probably 17 or 18) Within 5 minutes, unprompted, he invited people in the party to whatever church he attended. 5 minutes later he asked if anyone minded if he used the n word.

I don't think you could sum up the South any better than that in a short time span.

[Shaka Khan]

The gifs

I see them coming from a mile away but I still get a kick out of them.

[Phoenix Dark]

I'd just point out the article discussion of the Old/New Testament is off. The Law was fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Christ. Works are no longer required for salvation, which is now strictly through the cross. Finally, the Law was given directly to the Jews, and Jesus' earthly message was exclusively aimed at the Jews.

When I went to church as a kid/teen the general take on this was that while you could never lose your salvation, if you were a bad ambassador for Christ your heavenly reward would be worse. The New Testament mentions heavenly awards basically being given to the most devout Christians, and interestingly most discussion I read/heard about this made it sound like real estate. The closer you were to god in life, the closer you would be in heaven, whereas if you were a fuck up you might be living in the ghetto of heaven. Some followers might be given dominion over existing angels as well.

Meh. Personally if there was a heaven I'd be glad to be there, whether my heavenly location resembled OC or Compton. I already won by getting into heaven, why should I care whether I qualify for a continental breakfast too

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[bdoughty]

Sometimes you just have to find the right place to join.

Divorced? No problem, my pastor was divorced.
Behavioral Issues? We had a Scholastic Institution so plagued with corruption that they had to create a death penalty for us.
Rowdy? Catholics drink beer in the back yard, we drink beer in the front yard.
War? Is bad, mmmkay.
Homosexual? We won't marry you but we love you. Heck you can even preach but you kinda need to keep celibate.


The United Methodist Church, might as well cover your ass just in case he is for real. 

[Himu]

surprised no one has brought up pascal's wager

[Himu]

I'd just point out the article discussion of the Old/New Testament is off. The Law was fulfilled by the death and resurrection of Christ. Works are no longer required for salvation, which is now strictly through the cross. Finally, the Law was given directly to the Jews, and Jesus' earthly message was exclusively aimed at the Jews.

When I went to church as a kid/teen the general take on this was that while you could never lose your salvation, if you were a bad ambassador for Christ your heavenly reward would be worse. The New Testament mentions heavenly awards basically being given to the most devout Christians, and interestingly most discussion I read/heard about this made it sound like real estate. The closer you were to god in life, the closer you would be in heaven, whereas if you were a fuck up you might be living in the ghetto of heaven. Some followers might be given dominion over existing angels as well.

Meh. Personally if there was a heaven I'd be glad to be there, whether my heavenly location resembled OC or Compton. I already won by getting into heaven, why should I care whether I qualify for a continental breakfast too

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[Human Snorenado]

Real talk, as a kid my mom took us to a Unitarian Church once for like 3 weeks or whatever and then we never went back.  My sister asked about it after a while and my mom was like "I thought they were too strict in their teachings"

[Pringo]

In Canada, religion isn't the taboo topic it was a couple generations ago.  Pretty much everyone is atheist, so it's rare to get a good scrap out of someone by accident.

Ehhh, I don't think that's really true. Based on the last census data from 2001 the percentage of nonreligious in Canada is 16.2% which is pretty far from almost everyone.

[archnemesis]

I guess it's similar to the situation here. 70% are still members of the Church of Sweden, but only a tiny few percent actually goes to church every Sunday.

Here are some numbers
Percentage of the Swedish population who were members of the Church of Sweden
1972 -- 95.2 Percent
2011 -- 68.8 Percent

Proportion of all newborns that were baptized in the Church of Sweden
1970 -- 80.6 Percent
2011 -- 52.9 Percent

Proportion of 15 year olds who were confirmed in the Church of Sweden
1970 -- 80.7 percent
2011 -- 31.8 percent

Percentage of all marriages that were married in the Church of Sweden
1970 -- 79.3 percent
2011 -- 35.7 percent

Proportion of all deaths that were buried according to the arrangement of the Church of Sweden
1970 -- 95.5 percent
2011 -- 81.0 percent

[Human Snorenado]

See what all of that GODLESS SOSHILIZM has gotten you? 

[Brehvolution]

There are 2 paths you can go by. But in the long run, there's still time to change the road you're on.

[DCharlieJP]

surprised no one has brought up pascal's wager

it's not come in because it's a steaming pile of bullshit.

Let's expand it out to a third option : Spagetti monster

HE offers :
- eternal life as a physical being floating around space in god mode
- infinite pasta
- infinite meatballs
- ability to do whatever you want

what do you lose by believing in spagetti monster? - it's INFINITE LOSS other than selecting The Truth.

I'm pretty sure Pascal's wager was completely crushed by more modern philosphers (Descarte maybe?) because it rests on a few semi-bullshit premisses.

Though hey, i know as much about philosphy as i do about sub atomic structures - so....

end of the day - it's a wager against a man made premise that -might- be true vs rejection of that premise where one has a reward and the other does not. It's like going to the fare and playing the Knock the Can Down game knowing the cans are all nailed down , then screaming WELL IF YOU DON'T THINK ITS A FAIR GAME THEN YOU CANT WIN A TEDDY BEAR!!!!

[Van Cruncheon]

pascal's wager is illogical because why do you favor a specific god and a specific dogma. it can be posited for infinite gods x infinite dogma, thus making it a worthless wager.

as a proof

for every possible god x and every possibly dogma y

let's assume that wager is 50:50 -- the god/dogma exists versus no it doesn't

if we assume ONLY the christian god AND your personal dogma versus YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG, we have an awesome 1/2^1! BUT!

those are not the ONLY options!

now, let's assume the christian god AND MY personal dogma versus the christian god and your personal dogma versus YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG x 2, and factor that in: 1/2^2. hmmmm.

repeat for all possible permutations of creator(s) and required observances. 1/2^(x * y)! THAT'S A LOT OF COIN TOSSES.

(of course, the real issue with pascal's wager is the implicit bias in the weighting of the choices. even assuming only TWO choices -- your god/dogma vs. no god -- what, STATISTICALLY, makes it a good wager? is there a 99% chance of the christian god? a 99% chance of no god? the REAL question is: how much does your cultural bias and existential dread overwhelm your rational capacity for analysis, and what's the tipping point for risk?)

[Himu]

pacal's wager is so bad and I used to subscribe to it because I was raised that people who don't believe will go to hell no matter what, because they reject god's existence, and that it is your job to turn them to the good side, and if they fail to cross over? welp. It takes an age and a lot of self reflection to knock that kind of thinking out of your mind.

[Mr. Gundam]

Let people believe whatever they want. I don't understand the need to evangelize and convert people either toward religion or against it, it just makes you creepy.

[Van Cruncheon]

i have no problem with belief. i do, however, dispute pascal's wager as a credible ARGUMENT for belief.

[Pringo]

Let people believe whatever they want. I don't understand the need to evangelize and convert people either toward religion or against it, it just makes you creepy.

While I do agree for the most part that people should be allowed to believe whatever they want there are often wider societal implications due to these beliefs that end up affecting everybody. Ex: Why have you been campaigning in support of same sex marriage if you don't think it's appropriate to evangelize your own views? I don't see anything creepy about that.

On the flip side isn't it the religious duty of some Christian denominations (Jehovah's Witnesses for one) to convert nonbelievers? I'm definitely not any sort of religious scholar so someone might have to correct me on this one.

[Mr. Gundam]

I know it's hypocritical based on my previous statement, but I take issue with bigotry and using your faith as a shield to hide behind (ie. gay rights). You can believe whatever you want, but your beliefs should'nt trump the rights of others. Especially when what they're doing has no impact on your life.

I'll just shut up now, since my mortal logic is not 100% airtight and infallible.

[Stoney Mason]

Let people believe whatever they want. I don't understand the need to evangelize and convert people either toward religion or against it, it just makes you creepy.

Pringo addressed this mostly but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents in there. I think this is a fine attitude to have when secularism has won in a society. Like Sweden or something. Or hell even California. I think its a different thing though when you live in the places where it hasn't. There are worse examples in the world but I think the modern day south is still a good example where secularism hasn't won exactly and religion intrudes into many spheres where it shouldn't. Whether it be science, certain laws, or just the social pressure that is applied to make religion so inundated in every day life. And politicians use this stuff to rally their bases because they know its red meat material for them.

So I thinks it fine to have a live and let live attitude. But the caveat is that the society needs to have reached a place where religion isn't still being used as a hammer. 

[Ganhyun]

as long as others adhere to it, i'm quite live and let live. 

This is my feelings on it.