Fixed
Her: taxation is theft. I support space travel but don't think the government should steal people's money to do it. Private enterprise should lead the way in space travel.
Me: Okay, assuming private sector funded space travel, where would they get their funds?
Her: From telecom businesses that need orbital technology for satellites, obviously. Plus there's space tourism. The Russian government has already charged a few rich people $20 million a pop to take them on flights outside the atmosphere. What's stopping private businesses from doing the same? Oh right, government regulations.
Me: You ride the bus, right? How do you think that bus was created and complementary to the city layout so that the buses operate to cover the entirety of the city?
Her: Engineers.
Me: Who paid the engineers to place the buses in the city streets and pay the urban planners to come up with a strategy of placing the bus systems?
Her: The designers and manufacturers of the buses were paid by various cities who were their customers. Oh, and before you sing the praises of urban planners, tell me who has worse traffic problems, modern American cities like Los Angeles, born in the era of central municipal planning, or old European cities, where the layouts were determined mostly by spontaneous private development? Hell, zoning, urban planning, and government housing are used to keep dirty poors away from the rich folks, all in the name of the common good. *snorts derisively*
Me: So what's the problem?
Her: Because the money for those buses was forcefully stolen via confiscatory taxation, whether you ever used the buses or not.
Me: If you are paying for something and using it as a resource, in what way is it theft?
Her: Assuming you are using it (which isn't always true), the problem is you had no choice in the matter. They just took your money. If you tried to stop them, they'd throw you in jail. If you tried to stop them from putting you in jail, they'd physically subdue you, cuff you, and lock you up.
Me: So how does the government merely allow 300 million people the option to choose to pay taxes or not? How do things like these buses and freeways get done?
Her: That's a loaded question. It's not government making taxes optional, it's about government halting confiscatory taxes for all but the most basic night watchman functions and letting people decide how they want to spend their money. You think without a public bus system that there wouldn't be demand for mass transit? That in a dense city where parking is really costly that people wouldn't be willing to spend money sharing a bus or train? And that if money was out there to be made that nobody would step in and satisfy that demand?
----------
Much later. As an aside, Himu makes some random points about moe anime, even though I never mentioned K-On.
----------
Me: Shouldn't the issue be the american government and not government systems as a whole?
Her: No, since by definition a government is predicated on the threat of violence to coerce people into actions they otherwise wouldn't take. If any person or organization not labeled a "government" did that, everyone would immediately recognize it for the outrage against human dignity that it so clearly is.
Me: You may not be a homogenous blob, but you're still citizens of the american people.
Her: Says who? Says the government itself, giving me no choice in the matter. It's only the US because the colonists won wars against the natives, then against their home country, and eventually the patriots defeated a secessionist group in a bloody civil war. That, and not some teary-eyed love of country, is what underpins the legal status of American citizens.
Me: Do you an example of any country in the world where libertarian principles have been used in a modern developed country?
Her: In 1775, could you give an example of any (then-)modern nation that used liberal democratic principles? That had full and equal rights for women? Our history as a species is a story of our slow, fitful progress away from our barbaric and oppressive traditions towards a future of individual rights and respect for the autonomy of our fellow man. To reject something because it hasn't worked before isn't just ignorance, but a denial of our very humanity.
Me: For the sake of standards, also Canada has never declared war on any nation ever.
Her: Yes it did, during WW2. Also, for many years it was part of the commonwealth of the British Empire, which invaded, dominated, and exploited people around the world. More to the point domestic violence is used to impinge upon its citizens's freedoms.
Me: What freedoms are you talking about?
Her: Working for an income without having a big chunk taken without my permission? Building a home wherever I own property, regardless of zoning? Practicing my chosen profession without jumping through the hoops of an arbitrary licensing process? All of those are subject to the threat of violence from the state.
Me: Who said anything about violence?
Her: It's implicit in the actions of a government that enforces laws and collects taxes
Me: I used an example of Canada, which is pretty anti-violence, for the most part.
Her: Criminey, you're not getting the point. War isn't the only use of violence. When someone is forcibly arrested and jailed, what do you think happens? If one person did that to another, we'd call it assault, kidnapping and confinement. Which Canada, like other governments, will do to people who have committed no violent acts themselves. Sure, you might not be hurt if you don't resist arrest, but "co-operate and don't get hurt" is the definition of how coercion works.
Me: I have not heard of one canadian who doesn't want healthcare. Who wouldn't want healthcare? And name any developed nation that does not tax.
Her: If they really all want healthcare then you can leave them alone and they'll all pay for health care. Why force people to participate in something you claim they'd volunteer for? And again, just because all or most governments do something does not make that any more ethical or moral. Apply that reasoning a few hundred years ago and we'd be stuck in the feudal system, something even you should recognize would be a blow to freedom.
Me: Are you fucking serious?
Her: Are YOU?
