Why is it that game makers cant replicate the awesomeness of SNES RPGS

[mjemirzian]

I can't think of any 16-bit tactics game I played that was awful for its time. Most of them are pretty good because they focus on combat and level design rather than sandbox grinding and fanservice.

There are a lot of lesser known 16-bit games I haven't tried, but the ones you listed are all pretty solid picks. Never played Warriors of Rome before but it looks like an RTS, so not really my specialty.

[Bebpo]

I think suikoden II is better than CT.

Best jrpgs IMO:

Chronic trigger
Suikoden II
Dragon Quarter
Valkyrie Profile 2
Persona 3/4
Final Fantasy XII
Dragon Quest V



I'd take all over these over CT but CT is no slouch.

Wow, this is a good post and Brandnew is too young to understand.

Suikoden II/BoFV/VP2/DQV = classics. 

I'd put SMT3 Nocturne in for sure as well (over P3/P4).  Same with Grandia.  And Shadow Hearts II.



I'm actually pretty intrigued by Oscar disagreeing with Himuro's statement that PS1/PS2 had the best jrpgs.  Sure there's good stuff in the NES/SFC era and good stuff in the current era, but jesus christ Saturn/PS1/N64/PS2/GC era is absolutely unmatched in quality rpgs.   Hell, if you count PC rpgs released during that 1997-2006 timeframe that brings in the Sora no Kiseki series, Oath too and just cements it.


It's pretty easy to see why this happened.  JRPGs took off in PS1 and started getting bigger budgets and more development teams.  This led to a wider variety of rpgs and lots and lots of high quality rpg titles.  Then the Japanese game market crashed with PS3/PSP/Wii/DS and budgets took a nose dive and everyone just wanted to make cheap as possible rpgs for DS/Wii, then slightly less cheap rpgs for PSP, eventually turning out some quality PSP rpgs (though most were still budget limited).   

[Himu]

Warsong  is one the prized Genesis games and it is a shame my only exposure to Growlanser was V - an absolutely putrid game. From then on I took any game suggestion from pancakesandsex with a very, very critical eye. I wish I could play the Saturn Langrisser games.

[Don Flamenco]

DDS' is based off of hindu and buddhism architecture, but a lot of it is a mix of modern and sci-fi.

DDS2 is the shit. 

I have some 2D rpg nostalgia, but i've played through the important ones and don't really replay RPGs...so now i'm catching up on PS1+PS2 rpgs, which is where things REALLY get interesting in the JRPG genre.  Gonna be sitting through some serious cut scenes and digging on some grainy CGI graphics that seemed like an impossible dream when I originally played them on the PS1

[Himu]

Bebpo: I respect Grandia. I really do. It has been too long for me to add it to my definitive list though. Smt3N counts. I was one of the unfortunate souls to not "get" Shadow Hearts 2. It is okay, but I don't think it belongs with the likes of Valkyrie Profile 2.

[Don Flamenco]

Bebs, I'm not arguing one generation vs. two, nor am I going to accept teams of FC/SFC vs. PS1/PS2.  All I'm saying is that overall, SFC, PS1, and PS2 are not substantially different in terms of across the board quality, and that any significant perceived difference from Western gamers is more owing to differing localization practices than anything else.

and there are so many fucking RPGs across these 4 consoles and they're all like 80 hours each, so who the fuck is even qualified to compare any of it?     

I am working on that qualification though

emulation

[Don Flamenco]

also FFXII International, even though I'm only 15 hours in, might just be the best JRPG I've played.   I don't know who any of these people are and I sunk 100 hours into the PS2 version.   But I can't fucking wait to start on Trial Mode. 

just pure gameplay. 


 :babylawd

[Don Flamenco]

Probably the only person I know who could is Aeana.

or red scarlet. 

She's always streaming some XII.  She's even got more time on it than Ulililia, who is getting each char to level 99 with the highest possible HP/MP bonus for every single level up. 

I remember some other posts of hers about putting crazy time into some JRPGs

[Himu]

Honestly this thread just reminds me why I loved jrpgs and it sucks I'm kinda down on the genre now unless it is SMT and DQ. I didnt even bother buying 13-2 and i dont plan on getting Lightning Returns either. End of an era for me I guess. I just don't see a point to be excited when Suikoden is dead but oh well. At least there's wrpgs and the the 3ds.

[Himu]

Probably the only person I know who could is Aeana.

or red scarlet. 

She's always streaming some XII.  She's even got more time on it than Ulililia, who is getting each char to level 99 with the highest possible HP/MP bonus for every single level up. 

I remember some other posts of hers about putting crazy time into some JRPGs

Scarlet isn't crazy about all jrpgs. Just her specific interests. She isn't like Aeana where she will play most rpgs.

also FFXII International, even though I'm only 15 hours in, might just be the best JRPG I've played.   I don't know who any of these people are and I sunk 100 hours into the PS2 version.   But I can't fucking wait to start on Trial Mode. 

just pure gameplay. 


 :babylawd

Don't get me hyped breh. I'm waiting for that FF12 international HD.

[Don Flamenco]

I was worried for the genre at the beginning of the gen, but now that I have a PC that can play all of these games from PS2 + Gamecube and on down, I realize I have enough forever.   And I'm still discovering new RPGs-- I just found out about Blood Omen yesterday (not a jrpg, but its an example of a PS1 RPG that totally went under my radar.)  Oh, no Xbox emulator...guess I'll miss out on Shin Megami Tensei 9 and Sudeki


edit: i'd be all over XII International HD.  But it's such a fucking good idea, that's S-E probably won't do it or fuck it up somehow.  But man, all they need to do is upres it, add AA, and put some trophies in it.  It's got more detail than a lot of current gen games, no redone art necessary for god's sake Square-Enix.

[Bebpo]

Bebs, I'm not arguing one generation vs. two, nor am I going to accept teams of FC/SFC vs. PS1/PS2.  All I'm saying is that overall, SFC, PS1, and PS2 are not substantially different in terms of across the board quality, and that any significant perceived difference from Western gamers is more owing to differing localization practices than anything else.

I still disagree after having played a lot of non-localized titles across the gens. 


Honestly I think PS2 has the most variety and the rpgs that still hold up the best today with quick gameplay, good interfaces.  But PS1 has a lot of the classics.  SFC has a good amount of classics too.  PS2 has a lot of mediocre games as it was also the start of budget issues downfall of many series (Grandia, Wild Arms, Suikoden, etc...), but it does have A LOT of great games.  Hell, the Tales series alone contributes to a lot of quality with ToDr, Abyss, and others. 

My absolute favorite rpgs are PS1 (Suikoden II, Xenogears, Tactics Ogre); but gotta be more objective and give the overall to the vastness of the PS2 library of jrpgs.

[Don Flamenco]

my bad, I was under the impression she played RPGs mainly. 

[Himu]

Scarlet plays whatever she likes. Whether it is Left4Dead or Final Fantasy or Persona. Doesn't matter the genre but she definitely has an itch for notably FF and is definitely the queen of Final Fantasy and puts Kagari in the kiddy box she deserves.

[tiesto]

PS2 era I started falling out of gaming a bit, now going back and discovering those games and there are a lot of good ones.

[Himu]

Don't pass on VP2. You'll thank me later.

[tiesto]

Don't pass on VP2. You'll thank me later.

You kidding me? I played that game when it came out in the states... VP is one of my all-time favorite franchises, yes I even loved the rather obscure DS one. Speaking of VP, have you played Resonance of Fate yet Himu?

[Don Flamenco]

look at that.  she's hiding the roundest, biggest hips and ass under that skirt :datass

[Himu]

Nope. Wanted to but I didn't understand the demo a lick so I didn't buy it. Was during my college poor days so I was more selective.

[Don Flamenco]

Nope. Wanted to but I didn't understand the demo a lick so I didn't buy it. Was during my college poor days so I was more selective.

i played about 5 hours and still didn't have the hang of the battle system.  either that or the game is just super difficult.

[Himu]

Reminded me of VP2 without focus. Either that or the demo just has a poor way if explaining things.

[magus]

Resonance of fate isn't hard to understand,you use machine gun to deal "scratch damage" then you use handgun to turn the scratch damage into real one,if you push the run button you consume 1 run unit but get more time to shoot at the enemy with your machine gun but as soon as you kill 1 enemy (or break one of their part) you get a run unit back so the idea is to run -> deal enough scratch to kill/destroy -> use the handgun -> repeat until everything is dead

Honestly I think PS2 has the most variety and the rpgs that still hold up the best today with quick gameplay, good interfaces.  But PS1 has a lot of the classics.  SFC has a good amount of classics too.  PS2 has a lot of mediocre games as it was also the start of budget issues downfall of many series (Grandia, Wild Arms, Suikoden, etc...), but it does have A LOT of great games.  Hell, the Tales series alone contributes to a lot of quality with ToDr, Abyss, and others.

for me the ps2 era will mostly be about the rise of N1,FFX and the release of this and that odd rpg (like radiata stories) oh and getting into a lot of arguments about how i don't really like that much dragon quarter/valkyrie profile 2/persona

[Himu]

Since you dont like rpgs for gameplay it is no surprise you don't like those games Magus.

[magus]

Since you dont like rpgs for gameplay it is no surprise you don't like those games Magus.

yup yup,setting is the most important thing in an rpg,i don't really care if you have a big map or a fancy faux-SRPG like system... like i know everyone says it's boring and repetitive and well i guess it's true but for me odin sphere will remain one of the game i'll remember for the system

that doesn't mean i won't enjoy gameplay in an rpg if you push the right buttons,put a focus on equipment,make your battle system fast (really important) and try to have a unique spin that catch my attention
that's why i usualy suggest people to play mana khemia,it fills all of the above,of course then i have to explain them that "yes it's good even if there is a cat girl"
the hard life of a weeaboo

[Bebpo]

Reminded me of VP2 without focus. Either that or the demo just has a poor way if explaining things.

RoF is soooooooooo good.

You really need to play it ASAP.  It's about on par with VP2.  But don't take the story seriously plz.

[Bebpo]

Since you dont like rpgs for gameplay it is no surprise you don't like those games Magus.

yup yup,setting is the most important thing in an rpg,i don't really care if you have a big map or a fancy faux-SRPG like system... like i know everyone says it's boring and repetitive and well i guess it's true but for me odin sphere will remain one of the game i'll remember for the system

I met someone whose favorite game is OS.  You're not alone in that magus!

I still need to give it another shot.   I never even finished the first story.  Gorgeous art/music, but gameplay felt stiff and it wasn't very exciting to me.

[Powerslave]

The PS2 made me lose faith in gaming in general. The direction games were heading was truly disappointing. Platformers and RPGs lost their way. My 2 favorite genres.
In the end the PS2 was only a GTA and Metal Gear machine to me. Speaking of another major letdown, the Metal Gear franchise lost substantial amount of respect from me after the incredible first game. Not that I disliked MGS2 for reasons that most people complain about, but the tides had turned. MGS2 blew my mind, literally. I was amazed at the ending for days and remember telling it to people who couldn't give a crap about it. But the voice acting and the whole blockbuster angle is offputting.
But yeah RPGs. It all started with FFX. That game threw out the godly world map element in RPGs, had infuriating voice acting, entirely addressing Tidus and Yuna with this and was too focused on the story and had a little overall fun aspect in terms of humor and lightheartedness. With all this FFX marked the end of RPGs' (well, definitely the FF franchise if not all RPGs) focus on exploration and the whole aspect of a videogame knowing that it's a videogame.

[Momo]

I hope the next gen will be a bit better for jrpgs on console I miss having my favorite genre front and center on home console

[magus]

Since you dont like rpgs for gameplay it is no surprise you don't like those games Magus.

yup yup,setting is the most important thing in an rpg,i don't really care if you have a big map or a fancy faux-SRPG like system... like i know everyone says it's boring and repetitive and well i guess it's true but for me odin sphere will remain one of the game i'll remember for the system

I met someone whose favorite game is OS.  You're not alone in that magus!

I still need to give it another shot.   I never even finished the first story.  Gorgeous art/music, but gameplay felt stiff and it wasn't very exciting to me.

for me the most memorable part of the game is the ending... not the actual ending mind you,you see when you reach the final part,you have to fight 5 bosses but you have to pick the right character for each boss otherwise you get a bad ending,each character has their own bad ending (some of them actualy have 2 bad endings!) and some of those bad ending are awesome! actualy i don't even know how to describe them without sounding like a tool

[recursivelyenumerable]

Nowadays the issue I have with JRPGs (which hasn't actually gotten any worse, it's just that I'm less tolerant of it) is mostly that they just feel padded and a waste of my time. I feel like most 40 hour RPGs could be compressed to ~15 without losing much, given fewer repetitive battles and tighter visuals and storytelling.

[Himu]

I'm not kidding about anything here. I have a disconnect when people shit on experience games but have no issue liking games like ct which are about the experience. I'm mostly trying to understand triumph's logic here which may come as trolling ct and other snes rpgs - which I desperately love.

[Momo]

Himu, you know I like you but I agree with Oscar here, of late there have been quite a few things I disagree with you about but I decided not to pursue a dialogue because it was about things you like (and you go strange places I am unwilling to go when there is emotion behind it )

[Himu]

Have no clue what we are even arguing about now. I'm fine if someone thinks snes rpgs are better than psx and ps2 rpgs. What I don't understand is how people think rpgs have gone down in quality and that snes rpgs are untouched. I also can't wrap my head around people loving ct but hating on similar games with similar difficulties as being "non games".

[Momo]

My statement is outside the scope of the disagreements in this thread. What I said isnt bad btw, it's the reason I like you, but also the reason I have to abort thread when I'm caught in the whirlwind.

[Damian79]

I suppose that I just didnt get vp2?  I dunno, maybe i need to seep people playing the game to figure things out, i think i was probably splitting the xp too thin like i usually do in games.

[Himu]

I suppose that I just didnt get vp2?  I dunno, maybe i need to seep people playing the game to figure things out, i think i was probably splitting the xp too thin like i usually do in games.

Great thing about VP2 is tactical rpg gameplay with turn based (or action based) system.

You can split party members to distract enemies, blind side them.

Environment (lava, ice, cliffs) play a factor in strategy.

Open-ended battles in the form of sealstones that enhance battles and create interesting handicaps.

Positioning is important.

Game just owns. If only the story were up to snuff, would probably be GOAT jrpg.


Example:



Game fully rewards skill for playing well.

[Damian79]

I jsut bum rushed that boss and got more reward.  Hmm.

[Himu]

Probably took less time. Dude barely got hit.

[magus]

I jsut bum rushed that boss and got more reward.  Hmm.

same

[magus]

fact: kingdom hearts was the last time i was excited for a squaresoft game,that was back in 2002



square-enix should just get their shit together,do kingdom hearts 3 for ps3/360 and be done with it instead of just dicking and prancing around it with every single stupid spinoff they can think off considering at this point i fear an Ios game starring jiminy cricket or chip & dale and the gummiship at any point

[hampster]

Final Fantasy 9

I've been playing it on my vita. Three hours in and I've already made it to Lindblum, solved the mystery of that village with the info on Vivi's past and lost a dear friend :'( Poor Blank :'(

I've forgotten what a perv Zidane is Grabbing Dagger's ass, hitting on waitresses, getting rejected

Seeing the Torment success makes me jealous there aren't Japanese creators making old school jrpgs. Nothing against the kickstarter stuff, I was just playing consoles in high school so I don't have the same nostalgia for them.

[demi]

They are making old school JRPGs though?

Just this year we got Ni No Kuni. We also get Tales of Xillia, Kingdom Hearts 1.5 HD (2 games in 1, even)

You also get those frilly crap ones like Time and Eternity.

It's not like these games set the standard for JRPG. You bop things with a stick, and you level up.

[Himu]

They are making old school JRPGs though?

Just this year we got Ni No Kuni. We also get Tales of Xillia, Kingdom Hearts 1.5 HD (2 games in 1, even)

You also get those frilly crap ones like Time and Eternity.

It's not like these games set the standard for JRPG. You bop things with a stick, and you level up.

.

[tiesto]

Seeing the Torment success makes me jealous there aren't Japanese creators making old school jrpgs. Nothing against the kickstarter stuff, I was just playing consoles in high school so I don't have the same nostalgia for them.

From what I hear, Kickstarter isn't available to Japanese people, so there's that. Also, the portables make it a bit easier to get oldskool RPGs through (just look at all the 8/16bit-esque RPGs on DS and PSP) - there's actually Japanese publishers who would back 16-bit style RPGs and commercially release them on the handhelds. There's a Japanese scene for RPG Maker but it seems like a lot of these are graphic adventures/VNs rather than straight-up RPGs... Corpse Party, ib and Yume Nikki are the most famous examples.

[magus]

They are making old school JRPGs though?

Just this year we got Ni No Kuni. We also get Tales of Xillia, Kingdom Hearts 1.5 HD (2 games in 1, even)

You also get those frilly crap ones like Time and Eternity.

It's not like these games set the standard for JRPG. You bop things with a stick, and you level up.

eeeeeehhhh it's not the same,during ye olde day you had capcom,konami,square-enix and they would all make big effort toward the genre,nowadays all you see are rehash on 3DS,nobody wants to give a fuck anymore,even level 5 one of the few developers who still feels like giving a fuck seems to be almost at their wits end
it's like with polar bears,sure they aren't extinct but you can see the polar cap melting

Seeing the Torment success makes me jealous there aren't Japanese creators making old school jrpgs. Nothing against the kickstarter stuff, I was just playing consoles in high school so I don't have the same nostalgia for them.

yeah that kickstarter drives me crazy too,there isn't even what looks like an actual software house behind it,it's just a bunch of names associated with an ancient game that i know nothing about other than the internet says "IT'S THE BEST STORY EVER" there aren't even any screenshots about how the game looks and yet *BAM* 1$ millions,i'm totaly bamboozled

[demi]

inXile is a software house. They've made plenty of commercial games.

[demi]

They are making old school JRPGs though?

Just this year we got Ni No Kuni. We also get Tales of Xillia, Kingdom Hearts 1.5 HD (2 games in 1, even)

You also get those frilly crap ones like Time and Eternity.

It's not like these games set the standard for JRPG. You bop things with a stick, and you level up.

eeeeeehhhh it's not the same,during ye olde day you had capcom,konami,square-enix and they would all make big effort toward the genre,nowadays all you see are rehash on 3DS,nobody wants to give a fuck anymore,even level 5 one of the few developers who still feels like giving a fuck seems to be almost at their wits end
it's like with polar bears,sure they aren't extinct but you can see the polar cap melting

Ye olden days, ye olden days... there you go again.

[hampster]

I was more referring to the specific creators. Sure, there are a number of cool games these days but telling me Hiroyuki Ito or Matsuno needs my money to make a game like they made 10+ years ago would make me happy in the same way hearing Chris Avellone makes others happy

[Great Rumbler]

Seeing the Torment success makes me jealous there aren't Japanese creators making old school jrpgs. Nothing against the kickstarter stuff, I was just playing consoles in high school so I don't have the same nostalgia for them.

From what I hear, Kickstarter isn't available to Japanese people, so there's that.

Production I.G and Masaaki Yuasa had an anime Kickstarter [Kick-Heart] last year, although I believe they ran it through the company's American branch.

[recursivelyenumerable]

þe olden days, þe olden days, þe olden days. lrn2þrn.

[magus]

inXile is a software house. They've made plenty of commercial games.

oh? i automaticaly assumed there was nothing behind it when i saw himuro asking "who's behind it" in the first place,what did they do?

During ye olde days, Capcom pretty much made one RPG series, and 4/5 of felt rehashy and generic even in its time.

yeah rather than mentioning capcom because of rpg they did,i mentioned capcom because they were a big name who did tons of shit & stuff without giving a fuck,like i love the misadventures of tron bonne because it's such an unconventional games which has this 80 anime atmosphere about it,they made this fighting game about anime trope's fighting each other for no other reason that it was an awesome idea,that's how ye olde days feel,tons of small studio's doing shit & stuff without giving a fuck like grandia,lunar,wild arms... even sony throwed their hat in with legend of dragoon (even though it was poop) now it just doesn't feel like this anymore,everybody seems to have fallen in a rut,like you see konami and they gave castlevania to a bunch of hobo's,you see square-enix and they are clinging like desperate to final fantasy to the point it's starting to look silly even to me,you think of a small developer and you think of idea factory instead of game arts

i don't know to what rpg saint to pray anymore,other than N1 and level 5 and even N1 is once again doing disgaea as their next game

magoose's big problem is his irrational hatred of Atlus, which would certainly dampen the present RPG scene.

as long as they stick to the scheme i don't want anything to do with any sequel of etrian odyssey,persona or any other SMT spinoff they can think of,if you want to do SMT4 do it properly,nocturne was freaking amazing and when you re-use the old artwork that you've reused a tons of time it just looks cheap and you are doing a disservice to nocturne (though truth to be told i don't know much about the game,are they introducing any new idea or are still sticking to turn press?)
 
if you make any cool shit unrelated to games i already know like radiant historia then i'm totaly down for it

[Great Rumbler]

oh? i automaticaly assumed there was nothing behind it when i saw himuro asking "who's behind it" in the first place,what did they do?

The Bard's Tale, Hunted: The Demon's Forge, Choplifter HD, some iOS games, and they're currently working on this:

[Himu]

During ye olde days, Capcom pretty much made one RPG series, and 4/5 of felt rehashy and generic even in its time.

Konami still does an RPG here and there, but they're rarely localized and the loss of the Suikoden guy after 5 is certainly felt.

magoose's big problem is his irrational hatred of Atlus, which would certainly dampen the present RPG scene.

He departed after 3. 5 they picked up a new writer and he was great.

[Joe Molotov]

Magus, you need to buy a PS3 and join us in the 21st century, man. We have Ni No Kuni.