Xbone Reveal Official Thread

[mjemirzian]

If you think this is bad, wait till you see Windows 9 when MS gets really desperate:

1. Only runs on MS approved PC hardware. To be licensed, the hardware needs to block the running of any other OS such as Linux.
2. Only MS approved software is allowed to be run, and of course MS gets a cut of any sales.
3. Mandatory periodic internet checks required. "Always online"
4. Windows updates are mandatory and can't be refused.
5. Critical parts of the OS are run server-side, making offline use impossible without a reverse engineered server emulator.
6. All licenses are subscription based. No license transfers, of course.
7. Comes with a mini-Kinect sensor which is mandatory, always on, and always listening and watching. Metrics are reported "anonymously".

[Smooth Groove]

^kinda sounds like Apple

[Rufus]

Game Over?

What's the worst thing they could get away with? Having to call support?

[pilonv1]

So what actually happens if you haven't been connected at least once every 24 hours? Because my internet was crapping out a few months ago.

Please understand

[maxy]

http://kotaku.com/the-five-possible-states-of-xbox-one-games-are-strangel-509597078

Caveat: this Xbox One development info was circulated by Microsoft to its partners at the beginning of this year. It may have changed, but based on what we saw this week, probably not in any major way.

Running: The game is loaded in memory and is fully running. The game has full access to the reserved system resources, which are six CPU cores, 90 percent of GPU processing power, and 5 GB of memory. The game is rendering full-screen and the user can interact with it.

Constrained: The game is loaded in memory and is still running, but it has limited access to the system resources. The game is not rendering full screen in this state; it either is rendering to a reduced area of the screen or is not visible at all. The user cannot interact with the game in this state. System resource limits in this state are four CPUs, 5 GB of memory, and 45 percent of GPU power if the game is rendering to a reduced area of the screen, or 10 percent of GPU power if the game is not visible.

Suspended: The game is loaded in memory but is not running, meaning that the system has stopped scheduling all threads in the game process. The game has no access to CPUs or to the GPU processing power, but it still has the same 5 GB of memory reserved.

NotRunning: The game is not loaded in memory and is not running, and the system has no game-history information about the previous execution of the game. A game would be in NotRunning state in any of these three scenarios: -The game has not been run since the console started. -The game crashed during the last execution. -The game did not properly handle the suspend process during the last execution and was forced to exit by the system.

Terminated: The game is not loaded in memory and is not running, which is identical to the NotRunning state in terms of system resource usage. Terminated state, however, indicates that during the last execution of the game, the game process was successfully suspended and then terminated by the system. This means that the game had a chance to save its state as it was suspended; the next time the game is activated, it can load this previous state data and continue the user experience from the same position. A game, for example, can start from the same level and position in the player’s last session without showing any front-end menu.
Got all that? Suddenly, saving and pausing games seems so pedestrian, doesn't it?

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I'm less worried about people who can't AFFORD internet - though to be fair, it'll suck when it's the tail end of the gen and someone's mom brings them home an xbox one for 150-200 bucks and they can't use it due to internet but that is becoming increasingly more and more unlikely. I'm more worried about people who can afford internet but don't have ease of access due to living in the country and they don't live near the main road. People only live in cities apparently!

I can see it.

Microsoft believes that the measures they take to curb used games and piracy will bring in more money to them than someone without much money or someone who lives in a rural area.  It's a big fuck you to those potential customers.  Basically Microsoft's target market for the Xbox One is upper-middle class (and higher) Americans in urban areas who think it is a good idea to piss away $400-500 plus paid subscription on a glorified cable box that occasionally plays dudebro shooters.  Sounds like a solid business strategy to me

[Himu]

"Suddenly, saving and pausing games seems so pedestrian, doesn't it?"

:xbone

[Rufus]

haha, the worst thing?  your system becomes a brick until you connect again.

There's no way in hell they're that far gone into Lala-land.

[Himu]

Basically Microsoft's target market for the Xbox One is upper-middle class (and higher) Americans in urban areas

Yup. That's why I called the thing classist. Which probably isn't a good word but fuck was it on my mind at the time.

[maxy]

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/05/how-the-xbox-one-draws-more-processing-power-from-cloud-computing/

While Tuesday's Xbox One presentation answered some questions about Microsoft's upcoming system, it left just as many or more unsettled. Luckily, Ars got a chance to sit down with General Manager of Redmond Game Studios and Platforms Matt Booty to try to get more answers. While he wasn't able to answer some of the most pressing questions about the system, he was able to dive deep into some of the technical details.

Our first question had to do with the 30,000-server cloud architecture that Microsoft says the Xbox One will use to help support "latency-insensitive computation" in its games. What does that mean exactly, and can laggy cloud data really help in a video game where most things have to be able to respond locally and immediately?

"Things that I would call latency-sensitive would be reactions to animations in a shooter, reactions to hits and shots in a racing game, reactions to collisions," Booty told Ars. "Those things you need to have happen immediately and on frame and in sync with your controller. There are some things in a video game world, though, that don't necessarily need to be updated every frame or don't change that much in reaction to what's going on."

"One example of that might be lighting," he continued. "Let’s say you’re looking at a forest scene and you need to calculate the light coming through the trees, or you’re going through a battlefield and have very dense volumetric fog that’s hugging the terrain. Those things often involve some complicated up-front calculations when you enter that world, but they don’t necessarily have to be updated every frame. Those are perfect candidates for the console to offload that to the cloud—the cloud can do the heavy lifting, because you’ve got the ability to throw multiple devices at the problem in the cloud."

Booty added that things like physics modeling, fluid dynamics, and cloth motion were all prime examples of effects that require a lot of up-front computation that could be handled in the cloud without adding any lag to the actual gameplay. And the server resources Microsoft is putting toward these calculations will be much greater than a local Xbox One could handle on its own. "A rule of thumb we like to use is that [for] every Xbox One available in your living room we’ll have three of those devices in the cloud available," he said.

While cloud computation data doesn't have to be updated and synced with every frame of game data, developers are still going to have to manage the timing and flow of this cloud computing to avoid noticeable changes in graphic quality, Booty said. “Without getting too into the weeds, think about a lighting technique like ambient occlusion that gives you all the cracks and crevices and shadows that happen not just from direct light. There are a number of calculations that have to be done up front, and as the camera moves the effect will change. So when you walk into a room, it might be that for the first second or two the fidelity of the lighting is done by the console, but then, as the cloud catches up with that, the data comes back down to the console and you have incredibly realistic lighting."

Does that mean that Xbox One games will feature graphics that suddenly get much more realistic as complex data finally finishes downloading from the cloud? "Game developers have always had to wrestle with levels of detail... managing where and when you show details is part of the art of games," Booty said. "One of the exciting challenges going forward is a whole new set of techniques to manage what is going to be offloaded to the cloud and what’s going to come back.”

And what about those times when a gamer doesn't have an active Internet connection to make use of the cloud's computational power? Microsoft has confirmed that single-player games don't have to be online to work, but all this talk of cloud computing seems to suggest that these games might not look or perform as well if they don't have access to a high-speed connection.

"If there’s a fast connection and if the cloud is available and if the scene allows it, you’re obviously going to capitalize on that," Booty told Ars. "In the event of a drop out—and we all know that Internet can occasionally drop out, and I do say occasionally because these days it seems we depend on Internet as much as we depend on electricity—the game is going to have to intelligently handle that." Booty urged us to "stay tuned" for more on precisely how that intelligent handling would work, stressing that "it’s new technology and a new frontier for game design, and we’re going to see that evolve the way we’ve seen other technology evolve."

Bold claims.

Cloud

[Barry Egan]

cloud processing huh? the more things change...

[Great Rumbler]

[Rufus]

I don't really see any other way it would work.

Temporary brick that has you call a hotline after which they either remotely unlock it give you a code or something to do it yourself. There wouldn't even have to be a human on the other end.
I can't imagine they'll brick your system permanently or have you send it in or something, that would be incredibly stupid.
edit: Wait, I read your post wrong... I need sleep. Yeah, that is probably how it works. Now I'm wondering if they only lock you out for games you don't have a disc for, but I guess that would allow you to lend people games and that's clearly evil... Hm.

[cool breeze]

what the game cases look like



there's no reason to buy retail games, is there? I'm under the impression that it works like retail PC games.  The only advantage is that you won't be downloading the data, but with preloading games, the timeliness aspect isn't an issue; and with the cloud, you better hope you don't have data caps.

[pilonv1]

Game Over?

What's the worst thing they could get away with? Having to call support?

haha, the worst thing?  your system becomes a brick until you connect again.

It's called "Wii U mode"

what the game cases look like

(Image removed from quote.)

there's no reason to buy retail games, is there? I'm under the impression that it works like retail PC games.  The only advantage is that you won't be downloading the data, but with preloading games, the timeliness aspect isn't an issue; and with the cloud, you better hope you don't have data caps.

If you live oustide the US there probably is. UK & Australia usually have new releases at least 20% off recommended price instead of the full price for the digital version.

[Huff]

With the Xbone being complete shit, and knowing the PS4 will have at least half of the same dumbass stuff, I've lost all excitement of "next gen." Wake me up for next next gen.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'll be asleep forever

[close]

[Flannel Boy]

With the Xbone being complete shit, and knowing the PS4 will have at least half of the same dumbass stuff, I've lost all excitement of "next gen." Wake me up for next next gen.

Everyone wants to avoid next gen, but Nintendo avoided it first.

[DCharlieJP]

I'm confused at the confusion, but i'm probably just tired :

you buy a game and install it - then it's registered as being owned by you "in the cloud" via a game+user id association.

You brick your machine and you get a replacement and then you can redownload the games you already have a license for - just like steam. If you kept the disks you reinstall and it knows you already have a license for that game and doesn't attempt to charge you. I suspect this might all be done with activation codes a la PC too - it's the easiest way. New physical games then act -just- like PC games, second hand games go "please enter your code - if you don't have one, please click here to purchase one"


Also - when Steam gets brought up it misses one big thing - you buy something on steam , it's yours forever and, until a -major- architecture shift happens in PC land, will remain that way for a long time. MS and Sony have both pulled shit where previous -downloaded- games are no longer playable on the next iteration of hardware so this is -not- the same as Steam.

edit :

haha, the worst thing?  your system becomes a brick until you connect again.

i've missed this part it seems - so they are going to ask you to log in every 24 hours to validate games you've already validated? I don't understand why that would be. I suspect there might be something more to it that there is some mechanism to try and force the online connection for cloudy/experience related shit (translation : upload usage data so they can market to you more agressively)

[thisismyusername]

It's DRM. Plain and simple. They're having the console phone-home every 24 hours to make sure your installed games code or whatever printed on the disc hasn't been found on another X-box within said 24-hours without the used game fee "pass" allowing it.

[DCharlieJP]

Isn't it just this ?

You go to someone elses place and you log in as you
you then download Forza 5 - which they don't own - and you play away
you logout because you want to go home and play it yourself
the X1 then , after 24 hours, invalidates any licenses on any account that has not been logged in to that machine.

?

It's DRM. Plain and simple. They're having the console phone-home every 24 hours to make sure your installed games code or whatever printed on the disc hasn't been found on another X-box within said 24-hours without the used game fee "pass" allowing it.

i guess my point is why would they even want to do it that way? Once the code is registered -once- it's already in the system - simply cross check that number of the list. I don't see what automating the bejesus out of things gains them. I guess perhaps introducting "please type this in" might piss off some customers? Anyways. If that's really how they are doing it , it just seems the was a much easier way to accomplish it.

[helios]

Everyone keeps saying 24 hours, but Phil Harrison wasn't even sure that was it

[Rufus]

Well, I'd assumed this would be cleared up at E3, but some MS person non-answered a question by saying that the system isn't going to be launched for months implying that we might not know until shortly before then. Won't affect me either way but I'm really curious now.

[Himu]

Everyone keeps saying 24 hours, but Phil Harrison wasn't even sure that was it

Then why did he open his big fat mouth?

[Don Flamenco]

  "why did the chicken cross the road?"

:xbone "I do not know human." 

    "To get to the other side! LOL!" 

 :xbone   "AHAHAHAHAHAH Tell it again!"

[Sho Nuff]

[maxy]

I'm confused at the confusion, but i'm probably just tired :

you buy a game and install it - then it's registered as being owned by you "in the cloud" via a game+user id association.

You brick your machine and you get a replacement and then you can redownload the games you already have a license for - just like steam. If you kept the disks you reinstall and it knows you already have a license for that game and doesn't attempt to charge you. I suspect this might all be done with activation codes a la PC too - it's the easiest way. New physical games then act -just- like PC games, second hand games go "please enter your code - if you don't have one, please click here to purchase one"


Also - when Steam gets brought up it misses one big thing - you buy something on steam , it's yours forever and, until a -major- architecture shift happens in PC land, will remain that way for a long time. MS and Sony have both pulled shit where previous -downloaded- games are no longer playable on the next iteration of hardware so this is -not- the same as Steam.

edit :

haha, the worst thing?  your system becomes a brick until you connect again.

i've missed this part it seems - so they are going to ask you to log in every 24 hours to validate games you've already validated? I don't understand why that would be. I suspect there might be something more to it that there is some mechanism to try and force the online connection for cloudy/experience related shit (translation : upload usage data so they can market to you more agressively)

You buy bunch of discs,activate them online and go offline.

Then you give/sell them to friend/GameStop.Licences gets deactivated from your account but since your machine is offline those games are still perfectly playable(as long as you stay offline).
That can be solved by asking for the disc to be inserted if 24h limit is passed.

The above is not a problem if the second user pays full fee for a new key(no need for first user deactivation).But what about used game sales,how will that work?

hmm...I need a coffee

[DCharlieJP]

Ah Right - i was clearly tired so ... even though you buy the license when you then sell it on, you no longer have the right to use it and you have to keep the disks/not sell them on and the other person has to buy a game at pretty much full price anyways.

[Sho Nuff]

The whole talk about doing stuff like lighting computation / cloth simulation in the cloud is the most lolworthy thing those idiots have said yet

[Cerveza mas fina]

Streaming gaming like Gaikai/Onlive already has latency issues in some sense but at least it's very straightforward and works because of this.

Cloud computing where part of the work is done elsewhere is impossible because how will you be able to implement that processed stuff into what is being done locally if you take into account latency? YOU CANT.

If your xbox would do 60% of the math locally based on real time input, and 40% is done in de cloud with 50/150ms latency this simply can't work. It's one or the other.

Maybe this will be used in a different way where some things are streamed in and the xbox is already loading "the next stage" to create a smooth experience.

[maxy]

Ah Right - i was clearly tired so ... even though you buy the license when you then sell it on, you no longer have the right to use it and you have to keep the disks/not sell them on and the other person has to buy a game at pretty much full price anyways.

Speaking about disc side only,

Who will have the rights to unbind the licence?

1.Your account on original console?
2.Your account remotely?
3.Gamestop?
4.All of the above?

Assuming that Gamestop trade-ins will be possible,what if somebody steals yours discs and comes to Gamestop?

[chronovore]

Assuming that Gamestop trade-ins will be possible,what if somebody steals yours discs and comes to Gamestop?

Holy crap, that's a good question.

But I'm guessing it's the same as having your CDs stolen from your apartment: it's on you and your insurance.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Yeah it's just like any theft. But just with a stupid thief this time cause they are basically handing themselves in.

[maxy]

Xbox Live.

Insert a disc in any X1 connected to Live.

[chronovore]

Because of Microsoft's "Azure" registration system, in which they are required to participate, in order to be a valid reseller. Apparently. This is just what's going on in the "Used Games Thread"...
http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=40143.msg1691872#msg1691872

[maxy]

Okay, I'll ask again.  With asterisks for clarity.

How is *Gamestop* going to know if a disc is bound or unbound?

Gamestop will insert X1 disc into X1 or some device provided by MS.Internet connection required.

[pilonv1]

Gamestop will insert X1 disc into X1 or some device provided by MS.Internet connection required.

Could even something like scanning some code printed on the disc and have it checked against their licence table.

[pilonv1]

Can't speak to the US but every EB Games (owned by Gamestop) store in Australia has an internet connection and database connection to their head office.

Will be interested to see what the response is when this results in less new games sold, they will probably be incredibly confused.

[AdmiralViscen]

Unless things have dramatically changed since the last time I was back home, a very large amount of Gamestops don't have internet connections.  But the Azure cloud thing explains it. 

Now, the better question is, why the fuck would Gamestop agree to any of this? 

God, these game companies are greedy fucks.  Doctrine of first sale applies to everyone except their special snowflake asses.  I hope the whole fucking parade of suits that came up with this horseshit (and all the other crap that's ruined the fucking industry) end up answering for all of this when the dust settles, instead of getting away scot-free while the largely blameless developers are left holding the bag of flaming dogshit.

I hope, but I know otherwise.

Steve Ballmer has been in charge of MS for like 13 years. Nobody is getting fucked for anything

[Cerveza mas fina]

Unless things have dramatically changed since the last time I was back home, a very large amount of Gamestops don't have internet connections.  But the Azure cloud thing explains it. 

Now, the better question is, why the fuck would Gamestop agree to any of this? 

God, these game companies are greedy fucks.  Doctrine of first sale applies to everyone except their special snowflake asses.  I hope the whole fucking parade of suits that came up with this horseshit (and all the other crap that's ruined the fucking industry) end up answering for all of this when the dust settles, instead of getting away scot-free while the largely blameless developers are left holding the bag of flaming dogshit.

I hope, but I know otherwise.

Vote with your wallet Oscar. Don't buy these new consoles.

[pilonv1]

I dunno about the US either, but Canada (perhaps understandably, we're a bit behind on Internet stuff outside of major metropolitan areas) dials in for a database connection each morning but does not have a regular internet connection. 

That's how it was here until about 2006/07

[helios]

Everyone keeps saying 24 hours, but Phil Harrison wasn't even sure that was it

Then why did he open his big fat mouth?

Because he is an idiot

[Himu]

A gamestop near me the other day acted as a wifi spot for my 3ds the other day while I was Starbucks. Yes I know that is the biggest first world privilege statement ever and unlike the rest of the thread of people with limited worldviews I'm not going to say that it isn't a big deal just because  a local gamestop in the fourth largest city in USA has fucking internet in it.

[Don Flamenco]

I dunno about the US either, but Canada (perhaps understandably, we're a bit behind on Internet stuff outside of major metropolitan areas) dials in for a database connection each morning but does not have a regular internet connection.

yeah, well, tell those dirty poors to get out of the boonies and start living like actual people.  The cloud need not be sullied by the dirt under a peasant's fingernails.  If entire communities don't have good internet, then maybe they shouldn't spend $999 on a Xbone. 

[cool breeze]

(Image removed from quote.)

I like the wild dystopian ideas people are coming up with using these required cameras.  Like, to watch a movie, the camera will sense how many people are in the room and change extra per person.  Xbox One will watch you smile and your heart rate race during moe moe pantsu 3 and call the cops.

Kinect 2.0 stuff is nuts.  I thought it would be a Wii remote to Wii motion plus jump, where it simply delivers on the original promise.  But it's doing and tracking stuff beyond what's been demoed.  For actual games, you could do some gimmicky neat stuff like close your left eye to aim down sights.

[chronovore]

A gamestop near me the other day acted as a wifi spot for my 3ds the other day while I was Starbucks. Yes I know that is the biggest first world privilege statement ever and unlike the rest of the thread of people with limited worldviews I'm not going to say that it isn't a big deal just because  a local gamestop in the fourth largest city in USA has fucking internet in it.

It's not a big deal.

 

[Himu]

So the only things that are a big deal are things that affect you personally. Gotcha!

[Himu]

I dunno about the US either, but Canada (perhaps understandably, we're a bit behind on Internet stuff outside of major metropolitan areas) dials in for a database connection each morning but does not have a regular internet connection.

yeah, well, tell those dirty poors to get out of the boonies and start living like actual people.  The cloud need not be sullied by the dirt under a peasant's fingernails.  If entire communities don't have good internet, then maybe they shouldn't spend $999 on a Xbone.

Fuck them.

Wait, Microsoft is trying to block used games?! Fuck THEM. But also fuck those other guys I don't care about too. I'm the one being inconvenienced, not them.

[MCD]

You are more invested in this shit than me, a MS shill, himu.

Kick back, relax and watch the industry go down.

[Flannel Boy]

First parties

First Party

United States

    343 Industries – Halo series
    Connected Experiences – Untitled Project – Design Large scale multiplayer title and help other first party studios
    Good Science Studio – Kinect Adventures, Kinect Fun Labs
    Kids and Lifestyle Entertainment – Next generation fitness project - Original IP
    Microsoft Studios – Los Angeles – Next generation core cinematic title
    Microsoft Studios – Mobile Gaming – ilomilo
    Microsoft Studios – Redmond Publishing – Overseeing and co-developing multiple projects in conjunction with third party development studios based in the Americas and Canada
    Platform Next Studios – Next generation core title
    Playful Learning – Next generation family project
    Skybox Sports – Next generation sports project
    Turn 10 Studios – Forza Motorsport series
    Twisted Pixel Games – The Gunstringer, LocoCycle
    Xbox Live Productions – South Park Let's Go Tower Defense Play!, South Park: Tenorman's Revenge, Avatar Kinect

Europe

    Lionhead Studios – Fable series, Black & White series, Unannounced MMO-like New IP - (2 team studio - Concurrent development of Fable: The Journey, Fable Heroes and an unannounced next generation title)
    Lift London – Multiple Cloud Based gaming projects
    Microsoft Studios – EMEA Publishing – Overseeing and co-developing multiple projects in conjunction with third party development studios based in Europe, Middle East and Asia regions
    Press Play – Max: The Curse of Brotherhood[27]
    Rare Ltd. – Banjo-Kazooie series, Viva Piñata series, Perfect Dark series, Kinect Sports series- (3 team studio - Concurrent development of various titles)
    Soho Productions – Kinect Sesame Street TV

zzz

So PS4 will have better first party games, more Japanese games, and better versions of third party games (bububu cloud). Why would anyone choose the xbone over ps4?

[huckleberry]

MCD is right...this is all you can do at this point.


** anecdotal but the two biggest CoD and NFL/NBA/whatever is on fucking tv fans I know both shook their heads when I asked them about the Xbone.  One buddy asked me if it was a DVR and when I said no he responded "then whats the point in that shit?".  These two are a sample of the supposed audience that MS is going after.....good fucking luck.

This ship is sinking like the Lusitania and we all have seaside seats.

[Himu]

So basically MS has mostly first party?

[Flannel Boy]

So basically MS has mostly first party?

Sorry, that was just a list of first parties. I edited.

[Rufus]

I like the wild dystopian ideas people are coming up with using these required cameras.  Like, to watch a movie, the camera will sense how many people are in the room and change extra per person.

[fistfulofmetal]

I like the wild dystopian ideas people are coming up with using these required cameras.  Like, to watch a movie, the camera will sense how many people are in the room and change extra per person. 

Well the system DOES have the ability to do that.

[Human Snorenado]

So PS4 will have better first party games, more Japanese games, and better versions of third party games (bububu cloud). Why would anyone choose the xbone over ps4?

TV BITCHES

[Human Snorenado]

Some people that I would consider "normal dudebros" that I've talked to are pretty excited to get an xbone.  These are both guys in their early/mid 30's, dads, 360 owners, who watch a shit ton of tv and basically play shooters and sports titles.  Obviously this is completely anecdotal, but maybe MS knew what they were doing after all.

[Rufus]

I don't know that they should laser focus on that particular segment, but I assume the numbers check out...

[Shaka Khan]

Who's maxy on GAF? PM if its supposed to be a secret.

[etiolate]

from RPS, this gave me lols

The Xbox One is set to get 15 exclusives over the course of its first year. But what of PC versions? Last time I checked, Xbox and Windows were playing for the same team, so why not? Here’s what Booty told Shacknews:

“The Windows 8 gamer is certainly going to participate in some of that content… We have got everything from very, very casual games, like our very much improved and reimagined Solitaire, all the way to graphically complicated games like The Harvest.”

The Harvest was originally a cell phone game.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

is Solitaire one of the 15 Xbox One games? XD