Author Topic: Let's teach ourselves a language!  (Read 38882 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

DCharlieJP

  • the ex-XFE, now 3rd in-line for SFE
  • Icon
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2013, 01:06:44 AM »
I've been hitting japanese with private lessons from my father in law - i've since had two interviews for jobs at Japanese firms, one of which were preparing an offer before i declined so i'm headed in the right direction.

I'm under no delusion though, my Japanese is still pretty awful but it's took an upturn.

The biggest thing that i'm enjoying is having someone teach me how to write with a bit less of a cack hand so now everything looks a bit more stylish rather than the robotic stensil laughable shitfest it was.
I'm hoping to get in on a job where i am forced to use Japanese day in day out so i can add Japanese to my abilities before i am way too old to learn anything else.
O=X

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2013, 02:51:26 AM »
Did Katakana tonight. God that shit is hard. I want to know both kanas as well as the English alphabet by half way through June. I think a week of reading  and anki will help me achieve that.
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #62 on: June 02, 2013, 03:02:35 AM »
Good blog post on finding good reading materials for beginner Japanese speakers.

http://www.tofugu.com/2012/08/28/japanese-reading-practice-for-beginners/
IYKYK

Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #63 on: June 02, 2013, 12:20:21 PM »
Katakana isn't too hard, but I do remember it being a big paradigm shift after getting hiragana down pat. It's super useful, though. Especially if you ever visit Japan. Being able to read katakana really helps navigate around the big cities.

The opposite happened in Japan after I arrived; even the smallest effort to speak was rewarded, and the only American Japanese guy I knew here was frequently inconvenienced when his language skills weren't perfect.

What progress I have made in Japanese can be attributed to the patient of my hosts in Japan.

It's pretty amazing how forgiving Japanese people are to foreigners like myself who try their best but don't mean to butcher the language. On our honeymoon Em and I went to dinner at this little tempura restaurant (ie. one table for two and a bar with three seats) in Yanaka run by a husband and wife in their 70s. He spoke probably two or three sentences of English, so I did my best to speak with him in Japanese. Once I was able to explain that we just got married and were on our honeymoon, they started bringing out the expensive watermelons (for free) and celebrated with us. Also helped when I explained to him that Em doesn't like shrimp. He just laughed. I still can't believe just how patient and friendly he and his wife were.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 12:26:28 PM by Mr. Gundam »
野球

Robo

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #64 on: June 02, 2013, 12:52:05 PM »
el hombre come una manzana  :mynicca
obo

Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #65 on: June 02, 2013, 01:03:18 PM »
Himu, you made flashcards, right? Flash cards/drill and kill is what got me to memorize both hiragana and katakana.
野球

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #66 on: June 02, 2013, 01:34:58 PM »
Yeap. I have flash cards on my phone and on my computer. They're helping. I think it'll take 2-3 weeks of consistent study to nail them completely. I honestly just want to start working on vocab, but I see I got ahead of myself a bit.

I'm telling myself I should give myself a break for today because yesterday, between doing Remembering the Kana (katakana section), studying three anki decks, and trying to decipher native children's stories material I probably "studied" for 10 hours yesterday. But no surrender! Kana first, vocab second, sentences last! I will reward myself with Game of Thrones and Mad Men.

ギーム の おい!!!

Gundam, what makes katakana a challenge are all the similar characters.

シツ ソ ソ  are the best examples of this.

That's without mentioning フスヌラヲクタワウ.

Thankfully my learning method is imaginative memory and mnemonics rather than pure brute repetition and memorization. Makes things a lottttt easier.

ラ is ra because the keyword is RAmen! See? The horizontal slash above the ramen noodle cup is the top just like a ramen cup!



ヌ is nu because the keyword is Noodle! See? The noodle is sticking out of the bowl!

フ is a fu because the keyword is FOOd bowl! See? It looks like a half a bowl of food! Draw the other half and you'll make a full bowl!

Very fun.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2013, 01:57:11 PM by Formerly Known As Himuro »
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #67 on: June 02, 2013, 02:10:27 PM »
Speaking of mnemonics, Gundam you say you struggle with kanji? Have you done Remembering the Kanji?

Sample from a page:

IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #68 on: June 04, 2013, 02:33:04 AM »
Jesus Christ this shit is so fascinating.

http://thejapanesepage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=15495

Halfway done with fully memorizing kana and I cannot WAIT to get to kanji. :noah
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2013, 04:49:01 AM »
Thought I'd update. I've mastered kana, I think. I can automatically tell what a kana is just by looking at it and not thinking it in English now. Pretty impressed with the results.

I'm now concentrating on learning phrases, beginniner vocab, accent, listening comprehension, and talking. I've been doing a language learning technique called "shadowing" for the past week and a half to learn to speak Japanese rather than read it and I'm getting very good results.



In short, you take a piece of audio and a original language transcript. You "blind shadow" for a couple of days by repeating every thing they say, verbatim,   until memorized. You do this while walking to help keep the brain in an 'active' state for memory retention. I do it while on a daily walk. You memorize the phrases, then later, you reference the original audio with a transcript and translation to know exactly what they're saying. You already know the words, now you after reading it, you understand the grammar and vocabulary.

It's a very unique and helpful thing for learning to speak a language.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 04:50:42 AM by Formerly Known As Himuro »
IYKYK

Rufus

  • 🙈🙉🙊
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2013, 07:03:54 AM »
Wah, mean.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #71 on: June 20, 2013, 09:54:26 PM »
Really feel I'm getting closer to my goal after only a month. :) I can look at Dragon Quest pictures and discern dialogue just through the kana. I may not know what all the words mean but I can read what they're saying. Doing this gives lots of confidence.
IYKYK

nudemacusers

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #72 on: June 20, 2013, 09:55:12 PM »
I want to learn french. and uguu.
﷽﷽﷽﷽﷽

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #73 on: July 30, 2013, 03:45:48 PM »
I love kanji.

Read the word 劇場 while doing daily Japanese practice without a hint. Just read it straight. Feels so good knocking the kanji out. Apparently it's げきじょう, which is a theatre. The cool part about learning kanji is learning what the kanji pictographs mean, before learning the actual word. Like 劇 is a drama whereas a 場 is basically a place, or a place where people greet for formal activities. Put two and two together, and you get a theater.

Currently at 100 kanji memorized, about 500 vocab/phrases memorized.
IYKYK

Polari

  • Hello darkness my old friend I come to talk to you again
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2013, 09:08:33 PM »
Back on Duolingo the last couple of days. Adding all those gaffers was a good idea, I feel like Rocky climbing those steps or some shit every time I overtake one of them on the list.

Polari

  • Hello darkness my old friend I come to talk to you again
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2013, 09:14:39 PM »
Also Japanese looks waaaaaay too hard brehs. I've been realising just how long it would take me if I was actually gonna figure out all this French shit. It's not even the words as much as the grammar. Duolingo is way better than Rosetta Stone in that sense I think though as it doesn't let you slip at all. Also I think Japanese might be launching on Duolingo in October. They have a teaser image which is red and white with an egg cracking like it could be Godzilla or something (Godzilla's like eggs right?)

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #76 on: April 12, 2014, 08:29:09 PM »
Update:

Remembering the Kanji 1 completed. 2000 kanji "learned". I say "learned" because I know like half the puzzle. I know what the kanji mean in English but not in Japanese. Restarting Core2k vocab to fix that. Since I know the kanji now, that will make things easier.

Now that I'm done with the core 2000 kanji, time for textbooks to work on grammar!!




Also MANGA:



IN ITS ORIGINAL LANGUAGE. :lawd :rejoice

Act like you can stop me. 8)

The goal to be intermediate in Japanese before the end of the year continues!
IYKYK

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #77 on: April 13, 2014, 06:41:03 PM »
I'm glad you're sticking with it!

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #78 on: August 09, 2014, 02:40:00 AM »
So!

I've been doing this for a year. I'm really proud of myself! I always wanted to learn Japanese and now I think I can honestly say I am now lower-intermediate level! :noah I can beat DQ1 now without any trouble in Japanese. And it's short enough to replay and test language ability. Something like Pokemon screenshots in famitsu makes me scoff. I can even do a more story oriented title like FFIV. I didn't beat it, because my goal was to test language ability, but I did make it ten hours into it and I felt that was enough.

I'm going to be reviewing materials in this post. I have tried and experimented with a lot of techniques this past year but the best is diligence! HOWWWWWever, I think we all learn language differently, but I still think there are some core principles everyone needs to go through to drill the language into your head while MAKING IT FUN! When we were kids and we learned the abc's we made it fun. We were taught a song. We colored in big cartoon shaped letters. We read colorful books. We watched tv. We played games.

1.


First things first I suggest starting with Learning the Hiragana/Katakana by Heisig. It's easily the best and most fun way to drill the basic kana into your head. If you're not in Japan, however, you cannot immerse yourself. So if you don't practice you will lose your kana knowledge like I did in the past. You can do Remembering the Kana in two days. Three hours each.

2.

 After you finish RTKANA, I highly suggest picking up a game that has a lot of Japanese in its scenery.  Play the game in English. Playing or reading Japanese now at this level will be painful and frustrating. But say, a game like Yakuza 4 has Japanese all over the place and since you're not in Japan it's a great substitute. You'll see kana all over the streets in Yakuza games.




"Hey! I can read that!"

You'll be using context to learn new words. You'll see that that hiragana for that cart clearly says Miku, while the English translation is meat. HEY. I LEARNED A NEW WORD. Keep plugging in an drill in your head what these characters are to the point where they become as a part of you as the abc's. If you forget some kana, go back to RTKANA and do the parts you're struggling with over again and try again. Eventually you'll get it. This is THE BEST WAY TO MASTER KATAKANA BASICS.

3.

Read Japanese The Manga Way. This book uses manga as examples of everyday Japanese and correct grammar use. It is a very helpful tool that makes learning Japanese grammar and sentence structure easy, fun, and just a joy to read. Don't sweat the kanji that's present in the manga examples. Stress emphasis on the kana and the books contents and internalize Japanese sentence structure.



See? Even here is great kana practice! Even though you don't know the kanji, you should be able to read "ri masen deshita" in the above pic.  Japanese The Manga Way is one great way to internalize kana.

See?



4. Now that you've internalized or are pretty :obama at kana, let's move on to kanji. Immediately. Keep playing Yakuza or whatever game with lots of Japanese in its games environment. Why start on kanji so fast? Because it's essential as fuck. Romaji when learning Japanese is essentially useless. I don't even KNOW how to use romaji anymore because I think of the characters in Japanese and not in Latin characters. Learning kanji will help tons and help you closer to your goal. It'll also be THE first huge testing ground for your dedication towards learning the language. I suggest picking Heisig's Remembering the Kanji 1.



In this book you will go over the 2000 core every day use kanji and their most common meanings. It doesn't tell you the Japanese WORD for the kanji because that's extra information and too much for now. However, it does teach you how to decipher and read kanji. It teaches kanji so that it no longer scary, but beautiful. You go from learning basic one stroke kanji for the number 1, to 20 stroke kanjis you can decipher and draw with ease. You become a monster. All it takes is 10 kanji a day, diligence, and hard work. Eventually, whether it will be three months or six months depending on your rate, you'll have those 2000 kanji under your belt. For the record, it took me six months.

I suggest using RTK ios app (which is pretty great, shame I didn't have ios when I completed it) in conjunction with an RTK Anki deck. Practice every day. Even 3 new kanji is better than none.



I suggest taking a break at 1000 kanji. From there the road is TOUGH. And you deserve a break. Re-read Japanese the manga way and see if you understand the kanji more now. You will. Start to read Japanese news sites that interest you and see if you can parse articles and headlines. You will.
At this point, I suggest starting a Japanese text book suck as Assimil's Japanese with Ease or Genki's. I suggest BOTH.





Use the textbook like you would a regular one. Get the beginner book for both. I suggest starting on Genki. Do this while working on the final 1000 kanji.

5. You've now finished all 2000 everyday use kanji in less than a year. You've made people who pay for four year Japanese classes tremble! SUCH IS POWER! Maybe you're still on your textbook. Keep at it. Again, it's break time. Play a game in Japanese. See how you can understand even without knowing all the vocab. You'll understand a surprisingly lot depending on the level. I suggest playing something light that has dialogue. Mega Man X. Dragon Quest III or IV. Final Fantasy I. Pokemon. Maybe even a Tales game. Come on, baby. You can do this!







Go back to Japanese the Manga Way. Read the manga samples and see which ones you understand completely. Import those manga either from the INTERNET SHOP or yesasia.com. Some manga I've imported that are very good at this level: Crayon Shin-chan (must have), Yotsubato (must have), One Piece (must have), Kimagure Orange Road, Dragon Ball.





Any word you don't understand? Look it up in a Japanese dictionary. Add it to a personal Anki vocab deck.

Continue to review your kanji so you don't forget in Anki. But more than that, it's time to start learning vocab.

6. Download the Core2k vocab Anki deck. Those 2000 kanji you know? You're going to learn the Japanese word. Yes, you know that kanji that looks like a key (fortune teller; one horizontal stroke, attached to a long vertical stroke, attached to a square) is uranai in Japanese. You'll filling in your vocab for both kanji and kana. Combined with practicing with Japanese media (news, comics, games, movies and shows preferably with Japanese subtitles) and two text books, you'll be fine.

By the time you've finished the core, you should be done with both Genki 1 and Japanese with Ease 1. Now, revisit those Japanese the Manga way and check out how far you've come. You've gone from what the fuck is that? To,"oh, sono toki o nirande ima kara junbi o shinakereba osoi n desu", kanji and all. You may not be perfect. You  will mess up a lot. You may and will have to look stuff up. But you're over the hump and it is incredibly satisfying.

All of this is can be done in less than a year. With diligence, 6-9 months. You can do it you fucker!!! I may not understand all the dialogue for FFXII in Japanese but dammit I WILL. Eventually! You need a passion and love for the language to do all of this I think. It can be hard and brutal. But if you love the language you'll be having fun the entire fucking time.

Now for Genki II and Japanese with Ease II!!!
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 03:28:00 AM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #79 on: August 09, 2014, 11:52:44 AM »
Great going, Himuro! I'm so impressed with how you've stuck with the plan and how much you've picked up. I am surprised that you're able to get through something like DQ, as I've had trouble playing Japanese video games, because it feels so forced and like work.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #80 on: August 09, 2014, 02:51:38 PM »
It helps that the main reason I started learning the language is because goddamit, I'm sick of tired of games I want to play not coming over in English and me being left in the dark while my online buddies that know Japanese get a piece of the pie. It just so happens these games are rpgs.

DQ I'm very, very familiar with. I've played DQ1 and 3 across two different systems (snes and gbc). so I know how to play it, and I know what to do.

I suggest playing a game in Japanese that you love, and are VERY familiar with. I posted Ocarina of Time up there because I know that game by heart. If you know a game by heart, it's PERFECT for learning a language, personally. You'll pick up vocab faster because you're familiar with the game, it'll be less of a struggle, and you'll be having fun because it's that game you like in a brand new way. I suggest playing something that's nice and slow - something you can take your time with. Something that's not too busy. So NOT something like GTA for instance, which has a lot of voice acting and text.

Dragon Quest - at least early DQ - ain't bad actually!

Isn't DQ mostly made so that kids can play it?

Can you read this?





I find DQ really helps. Under no circumstances am I saying I understand everything all at once. I'm not fluent, of course. I still look words up, I sometimes still struggle. But it becomes easier and easier. While it may seem tedious. I suggest buying ONE volume of a manga at first, and try to stick to a small selection of games. Re-read and replay those. See how far you can get. Then, the more you study, revisit them, and see how far you've come and see how far you can get THIS time. It may be tough, but the results speak for themselves.

When are the next N tests? Do I have to start on N5? Or can I just go straight to N4 test?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2014, 02:57:14 PM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2014, 04:03:01 PM »
I'm actually jealous of people who aren't learning Japanese but are learning something with similar characters as English like Spanish, Italian, French, or German. These people don't have to spend almost upward of a year learning new characters. :maf All they have to do is pick up a great textbook, get some anki cards, some comics, movies, and games in their target language and go to town. Fuck these people. :tocry :brazilcry Especially people who want to learn Spanish. Most dvds/blurays have spanish voices or subtitles. You can pick up a comic in Spanish with ease. Most games have a Spanish text mode in America, they even have French and Italian and German due to Europe. These people have far more better and easier ways to get resources for their target languages and I hope they take advantage of this.

The bright side is I don't think there's an equivalent to Japanese the Manga Way for other languages. Truly the GOAT grammar book. :bow
IYKYK

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #82 on: August 09, 2014, 04:10:33 PM »
I learned (i.e. read and write) Arabic's abjad in maybe 6 weeks? You just picked a language with an absolutely fucked writing system.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2014, 04:38:46 PM »
I learned kana in a week.

Kana is the native writing system.

Kanji can be blamed on China. Kanji's not that bad, though. It just takes a long time until you can get into the meat of the language.
IYKYK

Rufus

  • 🙈🙉🙊
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2014, 05:01:38 PM »
I've heard some people learn the radicals (the common strokes that many kanji share), rather than kanji themselves. Supposedly that's easier in the long run, since you can puzzle out new kanji with some success, rather than having to learn them individually.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #85 on: August 09, 2014, 05:16:57 PM »
The Heisig method is the best method I've seen. You start from one stroke to 20+ strokes. You see the patterns that makes them easy to identify. That makes learning the core 2000 kanji much more simple because you now see them as shapes rather than just strokes.
IYKYK

Rufus

  • 🙈🙉🙊
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2014, 07:33:47 PM »
Seems like it's pretty much what I'm talking about, only he calls them "primitves" (and it's not just radicals, apparently). I've definitely seen those books before.

Hm. Hmhmhm.

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #87 on: August 10, 2014, 12:09:05 AM »
I can read the characters in those pretty easily. It's just not fun for me. I have better luck with manga.

Olivia Wilde Homo

  • Proud Kinkshamer
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #88 on: August 10, 2014, 07:36:40 PM »
I wanted to learn Spanish.  Coming from an HR/Management perspective, saying you know Spanish on a resume is meaningless but if you have an Associates Degree from some Community College for Spanish, it gets taken more seriously than someone who just used Rosetta Stone.  So I tried to find ways to enlist into Spanish courses nearby where I live but there are no options for doing so, in spite of several local community colleges.  So I might have to break down and do the Rosetta Stone/flash card thing.

I'm also tempted to learn French.  Some of the big money Oil and Gas jobs that start off at over 300,000 Euros require fluency in English and French for some reason.  For that kind of money, it seems like it is worth a serious look.
🍆🍆

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #89 on: August 10, 2014, 08:07:13 PM »
A lot of African countries are francophone, I imagine that might be why.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #90 on: August 10, 2014, 08:21:37 PM »
I can read the characters in those pretty easily. It's just not fun for me. I have better luck with manga.

Hmmm makes sense

what can you tell me about the N tests?
IYKYK

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #91 on: August 10, 2014, 08:51:22 PM »
I can read the characters in those pretty easily. It's just not fun for me. I have better luck with manga.

Hmmm makes sense

what can you tell me about the N tests?

I didn't realize those questions were directed at me earlier, sorry. I can't tell you anything -- I have never taken a Japanese test, and I've only had 2 semesters of formal Japanese study. Everything else has been learned on the ground over the 14 years I've lived here.

Atramental

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #92 on: August 10, 2014, 09:06:49 PM »
I think the only thing that's stopping me from becoming proficient in another language is that I'm still trying to decide what country I want to move to once I have the means to do so. I was thinking about Germany.

Then again, there's Canada and Australia. No need to learn another language for those two.

Probably still need to do some more research and actually travel to these places before I make a decision.

MyNameIsMethodis

  • QUIT
  • Ebola Carrier
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #93 on: August 10, 2014, 09:32:48 PM »
I tried to learn French for a month but got bored  :'(

Avec vous un histoire? Non, je suis desolee. :(
USA

Kara

  • It was all going to be very admirable and noble and it would show us - philosophically - what it means to be human.
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #94 on: August 10, 2014, 09:43:06 PM »
*une

**idk your gender (sorry), but your inflection on desole may also be wrong.

e: nvm it's wrong, I looked at your profile. :stasi

French is OK if you never have to read / write it (it's English tier in its orthography) or go to Paris or Quebec.

MyNameIsMethodis

  • QUIT
  • Ebola Carrier
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #95 on: August 10, 2014, 09:55:05 PM »
that month sure paid off :fbm
USA

HyperZoneWasAwesome

  • HastilyChosenUsername
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #96 on: August 11, 2014, 02:59:54 AM »
A lot of African countries are francophone, I imagine that might be why.
I work with a French African dude, his accent is so think that I think that everybody, at best can understand 70% of what he's saying at any given time.  But he really does rock that française like a champ.

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2016, 06:05:00 PM »
Working on an updated guide to getting past the hurdles of beginner Japanese and into lower intermediate if anyone is interesting in reading. If not I will not post it. It will be more detailed and could possibly help people who are learning other languages.
IYKYK

Positive Touch

  • Woo Papa
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #98 on: June 01, 2016, 06:20:37 PM »
i would absolutely like to know whatever you're willing to teach. i haven't progressed beyond learning hiragana
pcp

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #99 on: June 01, 2016, 09:05:33 PM »
Okay.

1. Learn Kana asap. If you're dealing with any language that doesn't use romanized lettering, whether it's Arabic, Japanese, Chinese, whatever. Learn the writing system first to avoid romanized teaching. If your target language is Japanese, you should avoid any learning material that teaches via romaji (roman transliteration of Japanese) instead of the actual Japanese language. There are exceptions, but the rule proves to be true.

You can learn kana - both hiragana and katakana - within a few hours to a few days. One resource for this is Heisig's Remembering the Kana. You can find it on Amazon here, or just get it from the internet shop. You learn both syllaberies in three hours each as the book advertises. So if six hours isn't worth paying for, don't buy it, but I personally find it to be a worthwhile investment. Plus, it's cheap and quality should be paid for.



https://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kana-Reading-Japanese-Syllabaries/dp/0824831640/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464822662&sr=8-1&keywords=remembering+the+kana

If Heisig doesn't work for you, there's a tons of other resources online that do the job such as Tofugu:

https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-hiragana/
https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/learn-katakana/

2. After learning Kana buy a game or movie in your target language that has a lot of signage in your target language using the writing system you just learned. Signage is a great way to replace immersion if it's not available to you. If you're learning Spanish and you need signage, if you're near a local Spanish place just go to there and practice reading in Spanish. This step is mostly beneficial for languages that do not have Romanized lettering. Thankfully, Japanese is great for this because it's one of the top nations in the world for producing media, especially games, that allow you go at your own pace and immerse yourself in the details of the environment. Doing this for romanized languages is much harder. For example, there's lots of games that take place in France or Italy (Assassin's Creed) but how much signage do they have compared to modern settings? Very little. On the other hand, the benefit of these languages is you generally have wider access to those languages if you live in Europe or America, especially if your L2 (language 2) is Spanish.

Games that take place in Japan and have Kana:



Yakuza games are great at this. There's lots of signage of modern Japanese and you can use this as practice for your kana to help instill them. This allows you to start reading stuff in Japanese from literally day 1. Just from this image alone you should be able to make out words with kana. Whether you know what they mean or not is irrelevant, what matters is that reading this hardens the kana in you after learning them so you can recall them as easily as our own ABC's.

Other games with lots of kana all over the place are Shenmue:



Surprisingly, there's not a lot of Japanese games that take place in modern settings and have lots of kana in them.

If playing a game for a learning purpose isn't your style, you can just read websites that interest you. You can simply go to www3.nhk.or.jp/ or www.famtsu.com and practice reading kana. You should be able to make a few things out with practice, especially katakana-based words. I suggest games instead though because you can play them at your own speed and while it costs money, you don't have to feel like you're overwhelmed by a shit ton of incomprehensible text.

3. Download Anki. http://ankisrs.net/

Anki is a website and app that teaches via SRS flashcards.

What is Anki?

Quote
Anki is a program which makes remembering things easy. Because it's a lot more efficient than traditional study methods, you can either greatly decrease your time spent studying, or greatly increase the amount you learn.

Anyone who needs to remember things in their daily life can benefit from Anki. Since it is content-agnostic and supports images, audio, videos and scientific markup (via LaTeX), the possibilities are endless.
For example:

    Learning a language
    Studying for medical and law exams
    Memorizing people's names and faces
    Brushing up on geography
    Mastering long poems
    Even practicing guitar chords!

It has a large community and one of its main purposes is language learning. If you're learning a language, seriously just go to Anki and download a deck. For now, you're going to want to download a Kana deck and do those kana to drill them into your head.

One of the great things about Anki is you can make your own decks too. So if you're watching a tv show and don't quite understand a word, you can just write it down on a piece of paper, get a dictionary and find the translation. Then when you're finished watching, enter the word and the translation/context into your very own Anki media vocab deck and review later so that when it comes up again you'll know it.

Anki costs 25 dollars on the iOS app store but I swear to you it's fucking worth it. Using it right, you will have exceeded over 25 hours using that app within just a few weeks. It is free on Android.

4. Buy Assimil's Japanese With Ease and Heisig's Remembering the Kanji.

You can do these two in any order. You can do RTK before JWE or JWE before RTK. Maybe both at the same time. Just stick to your day to day schedule.

I personally suggest doing both at the same time if possible.

Japanese with Ease is a textbook. Remembering the Kanji is a method to help you learn the meaning of, how to write, and remember all of the regular use (joyo) kanji as directed by the Japanese Ministry of Education which is 2,136 characters as of 2010. Heisig's method is a revolutionary way of maintaining Kanji knowledge and is one of the most respected and highly praised models of teaching the writing system today. The course for RTK should last upwards between 3 months to 6 months depending on your rate. On average, most people do between 20-25 kanji per day. Some do 10 per day. Doing 25 per day should get you finished with the book in three months time with a daily and regular schedule. Doing RTK is a good litmus test for Japanese learners because it weeds out people who don't have that much of an interest in learning the language and makes it a full on daily investment.

Example of RTK:





Amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Kanji-Complete-Japanese-Characters/dp/0824835921/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464824752&sr=8-1&keywords=remembering+the+kanji

It should be obvious that you should use Anki as an assistant for this book. Download a deck for the most recent version of RTK and go to town. Anki will help you review the kanji you learned that day and the ones before that too.

I suggest Assimil over the most oft mentioned Genki because Genki's main purpose is that of a grammar book. While Genki is great, it's a college textbook mostly aimed for college students. If you're taking a college class on Japanese, chances are you're using Genki. But Genki isn't made for self learners. Assimil is. Assimil is also better.

Assimil is made of a passive stage and an active stage. The passive stage lasts 50 lessons. The active is another 50 lessons. The reason I suggest Assiil over Genki is because Japanese with Ease comes with cds that tie to its lesson plans. Each lesson begins with and is entirely about the audio on the cd. The cds contain ZERO English. Only Japanese. The point is to listen to the cd audio, look at the translation, then look at the Japanese in the textbooks, and repeat what they're saying. A description of the Assimil method as per Dutch With Ease's explanation:

Quote
1. Listen to the text with the book closed. It does not matter if you do not understand what is said. You will gain a general impression of the sounds, hearing the pronunciation without being influenced by the spelling.

2. Listen to the recording a second time while looking at the English translation.

3. Read the Dutch text aloud (with the aid of the phonetic transcription if necessary). Be sure you understand the meaning of each sentence, comparing it with the translation as required.

4. Now read the Dutch text again, but this time without looking at the translation.

5. Listen to the recording twice, once while looking at the English translation, and once while looking at the Dutch text.

6. Listen to the recording again with the book closed. At this point you should understand what is being said.

7. Listen to the recording once more. Stop the machine after each sentence, and try to repeat it aloud.

8. Carefully read the comments several times. Examine the Dutch sentences being explained. These notes are very important.

9. Read the exercises. Repeat each sentence several times. The exercises review material from the current lesson and from preceding lessons. If you have forgotten certain words, consult the English translation.

10. Examine the examples of sentence structure. They show how words and phrases are combined in Dutch, which is not always the same as in English.

As you can see, this is thorough. Personally, what I also did is after learning what each thing means, I listened to the audio again, and I translated it into English. Then I look at the English translation I made, and I translated THAT into Japanese writing it in kana without listening to the audio. This made me really, REALLY, good at not only listening comprehension, but also translation, writing, and memorizing kana. The audio also is done by native speakers so when you repeat, you're going to sound like those native speakers. Great for speaking practice too.

One Assimil lesson is fine a day. Two at most during the passive stage. During Active, you're going to go through so much shit that one lesson is enough per day.

One of Japanese with Ease's weaknesses is that it comes with romaji. But it eventually knocks it off and the wheels come off. Someone who already learned the kana from the previous kana practice should be ignoring the romaji at all costs. Some people even black it out. Fuck romaji. FUCK ROMAJI.



For seeing how fucking effective Assimil is for language learning, just check this out:



Assimil has been around since the early 1900's. If you're learning any language, look into the At Ease series for that language. If it's good (not all of them are apparently good), then you can thank me later. Seriously.

One reason I suggest doing both at the same time is because I remember early on, I did this and one of the first kanji you learn in RTK is 早 which means early. The first lesson of Assimil uses this character. It's actually the first fucking word. That was amazingly satisfying, reading a kanji like that. Just like that, and knowing what it meant. But in this case, it meant hurry, not early. The word also was はやく(hayaku). While RTK does not teach what words mean in Japanese, only in English, and only one meaning (the most common one), doing Assimil side by side or even after RTK will help you fill in the blanks.

Unfortunately, in a lot of the western world, Assimil isn't exactly widely known. This can make it rare to find and sometimes expensive. But it's worth it. If you cannot find or afford it, the internet shop offers a great alternative assuming it's the latest edition.

5. Finishing Assimil and RTK should give you a base knowledge to start going at native material. After you should finish RTK, you should start doing the Core series, which is vocab. There's Core 2k, Core 4k, Core 6k, Core10k;etc. and doing this will help you fill in what those kanji actually mean in Japanese. Doing Assimil should also help greatly. Download Core via anki like usual and set your daily minimum limit. This is where the real work begins, because even at this point, native materials pose a challenge.

To help supplement this you need to fill in gaps of knowledge and have a firm understanding of Japanese grammar. Assimil should help with that, but extra is great too. Buy Japanese The Manga Way. It's a grammar book that uses manga to teach Japanese grammar. It's also the best grammar book ever and should be the basis for all grammar books in language learning going forward. Unfortunately, not every language works like Japanese though. In English for instance, comic writing is stylized and weird and normal people don't speak like that. But manga - depending on the genre - is spoken like actual every day Japanese. Also again, ignore the romaji.



The Tofugu review of JTMW is pretty clear on why it's so essential:

https://www.tofugu.com/reviews/japanese-the-manga-way/

One of JTMW's weaknesses though is that it has no tests or quizzes or work. Thankfully, some people have made Anki decks for it. Anki fucking owns: https://ankiweb.net/shared/decks/jtmw

Going through JTMW should you seal your understanding of Japanese sentence structure. Now pick up Graded Readers.

https://www.amazon.com/Japanese-Graded-Readers-Level-Vol/dp/4872177118/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1464827487&sr=8-1&keywords=japanese+graded+readers

This series in particular is fantastic. It goes from levels 0-4. 0 is suggested on where you should start. They come with their own stories and cd's. The cd's should be listened to along with the stories. Read that shit. Any vocab you're not familiar with, add it to a deck.



More actual Japanese from excellent native sources:



https://www.amazon.com/Read-Real-Japanese-Fiction-Contemporary/dp/1568365292?ie=UTF8&ref_=redir_mobile_desktop&ref_=s9_simh_gw_d0_g14_i1



https://www.amazon.com/Read-Real-Japanese-Essays-Contemporary/dp/1568364148/ref=pd_bxgy_14_img_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=6V11Y3ZFDPQPPETX4W0H



https://www.amazon.com/Breaking-into-Japanese-Literature-Classics/dp/1568364156/ref=pd_sim_14_2?ie=UTF8&dpID=51qm7gZSHWL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR110%2C160_&refRID=32GJT0CQ6Q0W5CAH9JWG



https://www.amazon.com/Shadowing-Speak-Japanese-Beginner-Intermediate/dp/4874243541/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1464827754&sr=1-1&keywords=shadowing



http://www.yesasia.com/us/yotsubato-1/1036602702-0-0-0-en/info.html

Surprisingly, I don't suggest reading children's books because they lack any kanji and the words run together and as someone who can read kanji at that point, it's just tedium. Some of the aforementioned titles include children's stories but with adult writing. By learning kanji, you're learning how to read and speak Japanese like an adult. Remember that how we speak English as adults is a lot different than how children are taught to speak. Japanese works similarly. Don't even bother unless there's kanji IMO. There's much better sources for learning at that point.

6. If you want to practice writing and reading your target language (any language), join Lang-8 and Skype.

http://lang-8.com/

It supports multiple languages. It's a social network meets language study. You make friends with natives of your target language. The point is you write something in your target language, and one of your native friends who knows that language corrects what you wrote and makes suggestions. Then you help people learn your native language. It's a give and take process. Some people (like me) write what what they're thinking in their native language so someone trying to learn English can read what I'm writing and then read the Japanese version I wrote. That way they can compare and help themselves too and we can help each other get better. It's an amazing resource. You can use Lang 8 with Genki if you get Genki. Genki is made for a classroom setting and one of the things about that is that there's homework to be graded. You obviously can't grade your own homework on your own. So one way to use Lang 8 is writing your Genki homework in Lang 8 and having someone correct it. The main issue with Lang 8 is it is entirely dependent on that persons level of language. We obviously all don't use the same rules and styles of the same language, but it's generally an amazing resource no matter what language you're learning.

Skype will allow you to talk directly to natives who speak your target language. There are programs on the internet that people do and speak to each other to help listening comprehension, speed, vocab, whatever.

7. Read Japanese sites regularly, still review your Anki decks, play games in Japanese. You've made it past the hump.

While playing Dragon Quest 7 iOS any time there was grammar or vocab I didn't understand, I'd stop what I was doing. Grab a piece of paper and pen and write it down. I'd look at a translation on Jisho (THE premiere Japanese online dictionary - found here - http://jisho.org/) and then write that down too. When it came time to review in Anki, I'd add it to the personal vocab deck and make sure I got it. Same applies to those other native materials mentioned above.

Learning Japanese isn't as hard as people make it. It just takes a lot of diligence and you have to really want it. I tried learning Spanish recently and learning the basics and getting past beginner Spanish is pretty easy. But past the beginner phase and into intermediate it's totally different and gets overly complicated and annoying. I don't like it at all. Japanese is the opposite for me. Getting past beginner is a battle. But once you're intermediate it's smooth sailing for the most part. For example, Japanese grammar and sentence structure is fucking easy compared to Spanish or especially English. Its biggest obstacle is the writing system and once you've got that you're good. I originally did this because I was sick of waiting for DQ7r. I beat DQ7 iOS and I met my initial goal. Now I'm working on getting even better. Just ordered Shadowing Intermediate to Advanced and some other materials (another textbook) such as Tobira. I'd like to become advanced so I can use it as a possible career move and possibly work in Japan for a while to make a name for myself.

Doing RTK should take 3-6 months depending on your rate. Assimil should take 100 days (one per lesson) for both phases. Core 2k doesn't take too long after doing Assimil which fills in the gaps. After that, you've got a good foundation in becoming good at the language. Personally it took me three years to be able to get this far since I made this thread. IMO, if you've got the drive you can do it in one or two with three or four hours per day of studying. But remember, even one to two hours is better than zero and showing up is actually 100% of the work. With doing something rather than nothing, you'll get to your goal no matter what it is.

You just have to want it and enjoy it.

Don't learn a language because you think you need to. Do it because you enjoy it. The language to learn is the one you're passionate about.

Queen out.

« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 09:21:36 PM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

bork

  • おっぱいは命、尻は故郷
  • Global Moderator
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #100 on: June 01, 2016, 09:37:49 PM »
I'm going to draw on my own experiences on this.  For background, I took Japanese all during my university days and went from the beginning to the level "3000" classes.   My professor was awesome; she was a Japanese national holding a dual citizenship, and she had multiple degrees and doctorates from more than one university, including Harvard.  She was a Japanese AND English language master and even taught some English grammar courses on the side. 

Starting with katakana is good.  It uses foreign loan words, so it's a good way to not only memorize the symbols, but also to start getting the pronunciations down.

The 1000 level classes we took started out with just katakana the first semester.  Of course, that's just the reading level.  The other huge part of this is getting the grammar and sentence structure down, and there's vocabulary.  You can do self-study...but you're going to need to be able to communicate with other speakers to really get this down. 

The 2000 level stuff had us full into hiragana and the start of kanji.  The latter is tough for me to memorize.  I don't have books for it...there's plenty of good flashcard apps you can get for your phone or tablet.  Queen is absolutely right when it comes to romaji-- I hated it and it made things harder when we switched over to full-on Japanese textbooks after convincing our professor to do so. 

3000 level was more vocabulary and kanji like a motherfucker.  I can't remember exactly what happened, but I believe I got a D in the class -just couldn't get it all memorized at the time- and had to take something else in its place. 

But where I really learned stuff?  Japan.  I mean, makes total sense, right?  Being immersed in the language you're learning is what really helps.  I've retained a decent amount of the language thanks to being married to a native speaker, but even then my language skills have diminished a bit while she has only improved in English.  But it's still an awesome feeling going over there and being able to get around and communicate without the use of any kind of translation material.

One thing I don't agree with?  Not reading or watching children's books/comics/shows/movies.  That is absolutely worth doing and good for beginner and intermediate levels and something my professor used in class.  One thing I loved doing was translating a full Rakudai Ninja Rantarou episode.  I didn't just translate it...I full-on LOCALIZED it and my professor was really surprised at how well I did versus the rest of the class.  I need to really brush up on things and I'd love to do some manga translation sometime.

Finally, Queen, if you want to do something in Japan...you're gonna want to actually test yourself, which is something else that self-study probably isn't going to be very helpful with.  Want to do translation work?  OK...go pass the top level JLPT first.  It's now five levels (was previously four).  During my last year living there, I debated going into full-on study mode and devoting myself to passing it, but ultimately decided to go back to school and start doing the IT thing in 'Murica.  I'd move back over there in a heartbeat if I could find a good job, though.  But I hear IT jobs there pay like half what they do here and have longer hours on top of it.  :-\
« Last Edit: June 01, 2016, 09:45:11 PM by bork pls »
ど助平

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #101 on: June 01, 2016, 09:46:47 PM »
I do not plan on doing translation work at all. For more information, pm me.

I have not done my JLPT's yet. I think I'm at least N3. I want to be N2 before I try to go to Japan but it will be a few years because I have other goals in mind first.

I didn't say ignore everything children. Just a lot of children's books for a young age.

Yotsbato for example is for children, but I still suggest it. I'm talking about really really young stuff. Like nursing rhymes and stuff like the equivalent of Japanese Itsy Bitsy Spider. I think stuff aimed at children ages 7 and up is fine.

Anyways, this seems like a lot, but you will KNOW if you're right for it while doing Assimil. Translating the audio into English and then into Japanese was so fun, I couldn't wait for the next lesson but I had a one lesson per day rule. That's how I knew I found my L2. If you're having fun with it, stick with it. It will bear fruit.
IYKYK

bork

  • おっぱいは命、尻は故郷
  • Global Moderator
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #102 on: June 01, 2016, 09:55:35 PM »
I do not plan on doing translation work at all. For more information, pm me.

Graphic design?  I'd probably bump the Japan thread and ask Chronovore, but getting work over there that's not eikaiwa or at a foreign company is gonna be tough...especially without the proof (I.E. JLPT N1 and the like) to back it up.  But it can be done.  One of my buddies is finding steady work over there and hasn't passed any tests IIRC. 

A lot of people also don't like it.  You definitely need to make your way over there and see how you like being there for an extended period of time.  I saw too many JETs go home during my time there. 

Quote
I have not done my JLPT's yet. I think I'm at least N3. I want to be N2 before I try to go to Japan but it will be a few years because I have other goals in mind first.

If you can do N3, great, but based on what you've posted...my concern would be the listening comprehension sections.  Anyway, what you're doing is awesome.  :)
ど助平

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #103 on: June 01, 2016, 10:04:42 PM »
Er.

Most of the stuff I suggest come with audio cds. The books like Contemporary Fiction and Graded Readers all come with audio cds that read what is being said and they're FAST.

This is in the Shadowing beginner book.



Assimil itself is an audio based teaching tool and it gets really fast. I've covered wide amount of bases. I even suggested talking to natives via Skype, which I have done. What I've suggested is the real deal, buddy.
IYKYK

Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #104 on: June 02, 2016, 12:31:09 AM »
Anyone else on Duolingo these days? My only friend still active is my mom and she is crushing me. I don’t have time to beat a retiree doing 10 lessons a day.  :'(

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #105 on: June 02, 2016, 12:56:47 AM »
Anyone else on Duolingo these days? My only friend still active is my mom and she is crushing me. I don’t have time to beat a retiree doing 10 lessons a day.  :'(

I'd love to buddy up, but Duolingo doesn't have Japanese.  :-\

Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #106 on: June 02, 2016, 12:58:54 AM »
Sounds like it’s time to learn Swedish!

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #107 on: June 05, 2016, 06:32:39 AM »
Thought I'd add some stuff.

If you can hack RTK and Assimil. You're almost over the hump tbh. You can dive right into native material. There's two camps after that point. There's people who think Core vocab sucks because there's no context. And they emphasize learning vocab and words through native material so they learn stuff they find useful. Then there's people who feel looking up words every few minutes or seconds to know what it means is tedious and stress pre learning vocab absence of context. But Assimil gives a great base in vocab and will teach you some 1800 words. Another reason I stress using it. So I emphasize both. That's my personal method. You can go with whatever.

I don't suggest play JRPGs in Japanese at that point unless you can really stomach taking out your phone and looking up a word in a dictionary every few minutes. If you do go with a jrpg, do something you are very, very, VERY knowledgeable on. I'm talking knowing inside the fuck out. Its story, its characters, its systems. If you know FF4 like the back of your hand and can stomach looking up words now and then, do FF4 in Japanese. Personally, FF7 was my first jrpg,  and it's a game I know like the back of my hand, so I went with that.

But to get the most out of post RTK and post Assimil, I really suggest sticking to stories like I posted above, manga aimed for children and general audiences like Yotsubato or something. Watch an anime aimed at children like My Neighbor Totoro or Whisper of the Heart. Watch them in Japanese with Japanese subtitles. But watch it with English subs first so you know the story if you haven't seen them. Then when you watch in Japanese, take advantage of digital features and get a Subs2SRS thing which converts Japanese subtitles for movies or anime and turns it into an anki deck to study its vocab. The point is that once you've got a good base, it is going to be a SLOG no matter what you do so you might as well limit how much of a slog it is. But it's worth it if you value this.

The reason I said not to get into material that is TOO young is because for someone starting out, nothing but kana is confusing as fuck. Remember, Japanese has no commas. Kana blends together and for the novice it's hard to know where words end and begin. This is the genius of kanji. Kanji is a word and the kana acts as either grammar add on (hiragana) or a foreign loan word (katakan). Japanese without kanji is tedious as fuck. If you finish RTK kanji will no longer be intimidating and you will embrace kanji. So stuff aimed at kids with no kanji knowledge will just make your head explode.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 06:50:01 AM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #109 on: June 05, 2016, 08:14:10 AM »
That depends on how you're doing it and honestly, it sounds like you're doing it wrong.

When I taught myself the jouyo via Heisig, I thought the opposite.

The story is all you need to know. What I would is have a dedicated kanji notebook. When I studied RTK, I'd first write down the word in English. Then I'd read the story and apply a visual in my head. Then I'd write the story down. If the story did not work for me, I went online for one someone came up with that was even better. Then I'd write THAT down. Then I'd write the kanji, once and only once. Then I'd go and do the next kanji. Once I was finished, I'd look at my lesson plan for that day and learn all of them by getting a visual on the story and learn that kanji. Again, having only written the kanji once and only once. Then I'd take a break and fuck around the internet or draw or watch tv. I'd come back and review what I did on Anki.

A week later, I don't remember the story. All I know is the kanji.

Applied correctly, you shouldn't remember a story.

Let's take the character for eye. 目 It is an eye rotated vertically and squared up. This is a literal pictograph.

The story for something like shellfish (貝) is that of a shell fish on the bottom of the sea. It has the character for eye (目) in it. It has the primitive for animal legs on it. So the story is imagining a shellfish that has a giant eye on its shell scaring people on the beach with its wiry, spider like legs. After putting that to a visual, it's easy to recall the character. Not only has it helped seal your knowledge of the character for eye by attaching it to a visual, but it also does so for the primitive of animal legs by doing the same thing. Now after this character it's impossible to forget eye, shellfish, or the primitive animal legs.

After a specific amount of time that story is going to go with the wind, and the only thing you should know about that character is that it means shellfish.

Nothing I have written is rote memorization. It's simple visual recall.

If you cannot recall kanji due to the stories, either you are

1. writing the kanji over and over and not emphasizing the story.

2. not applying the right story that works for you.

3. someone who has very poor visual memory

or

4. doing the method wrong.

Maybe it's because Heisig's method doesn't work for you, but 9 times out of 10, the reason someone doesn't or can't remember stuff from RTK is because

a. They're speeding and doing like 40-50 a day when Heisig literally says 20-25 should be ideal in the intro and that you're doing too much to allow the story to settle in your brain.

b. they're writing the kanji over and over and over even though they have been told as per the intro not to.

c. they're only relying on Heisig's stories, and not using the internet and its wonderful amazement as a resource to find other stories that work for other people.

or

d. they're not reviewing their stuff or they're learning when they should be reviewing, which usually is because of a combination of a and b. It's going to feel like rote memorization if you haven't already learned the kanji via the story, and you're trying to force yourself to learn it (b) or not giving yourself time to learn it (a). So when it comes to review time, when you should have already learned the kanji, you're learning and reviewing at the same time, making up a bulk of excess and tedium.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2016, 08:30:20 AM by Queen of Ice »
IYKYK

Olivia Wilde Homo

  • Proud Kinkshamer
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #110 on: June 05, 2016, 08:33:18 AM »
Anyone else on Duolingo these days? My only friend still active is my mom and she is crushing me. I don’t have time to beat a retiree doing 10 lessons a day.  :'(

I used Duolingo all the time last year.  I would do 10 lessons also so I'd get the 100 points.  I've really been thinking about starting up again.
🍆🍆

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #111 on: June 05, 2016, 01:25:59 PM »
It isn't practical to do 2000 times if you don't find it practical to learn Japanese. However, kanji is Japanese. Practical has nothing to do with it. If you want to learn how to swim, you hold on to the edge and learn to hold yourself up by kicking rapidly. You are going to start from zero either way and no route will be easy. The other alternative is to write each individual Jouyo kanji 5000 times till it's drilled into your head. Now which one is practical? It's only not practical if you don't value learning Japanese. And going by your words "cutting corners" etc you don't value learning Japanese.
IYKYK

Himu

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #112 on: June 05, 2016, 03:31:41 PM »
:beli

Anyways last post on this and it's pretty on the nose. My friend wrote it and I completely agree. I have completely taken Core vocab out of my schedule.

http://learnjapaneseonline.info/2015/05/10/core-japanese-vocabulary/

It's quite true too. When you read One Piece it has a totally different vocab than something like Asashi Shimbun. It's got "pirate" language and dialects. But of course reading One Piece will also make reading Asahi Shimbun easier as well. But learning 10k vocab words probably won't give you the grounding to read One Piece. So it's an interesting balance and why I emphasize native material out the gate once you have a core foundation.
IYKYK

chronovore

  • relapsed dev
  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #113 on: June 15, 2016, 04:32:09 PM »
And Evangelion, which is full of pseudoscience and religious jargon.

I hope those translators were paid extra.

Mupepe

  • Icon
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #114 on: July 26, 2016, 07:42:39 AM »
I think I want to learn German.  Is there a good app or a good series of books (or something) I can use via audio on my way to work.  A round trip of 2 hours can get in a lot of study time.

archnemesis

  • Senior Member
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #115 on: July 26, 2016, 08:06:58 AM »
Duolingo is always a good way to start. You will have to combine it with many other sources if you want to go beyond the basics.

There are several Learn German audio books available on Spotify.

Mupepe

  • Icon
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #116 on: July 26, 2016, 08:14:39 AM »
Duolingo is always a good way to start. You will have to combine it with many other sources if you want to go beyond the basics.

There are several Learn German audio books available on Spotify.
Awesome!  Looks like I'll either throw an Audible credit to a german audio book or get spotify.  I also downloaded duolingo

Mupepe

  • Icon
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #117 on: July 26, 2016, 08:26:39 AM »
Not really much at all.  But I figure I'll start finding something.  German movies or tv or something.  Maybe watch a lot of Inglorious Basterds :doge

Mupepe

  • Icon
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #118 on: July 26, 2016, 08:34:56 AM »
Considering watching or listening to a ton of German media before bothering to learn anything. You can learn right away if you want, but exposure will make everything easier. You'll get a good feel for how the language sounds and most importantly hearing the same words over and over pronounced slightly differently so you'll be able to understand different accents, etc. There's a ton of accents in English for example.

I wish I could recommend something but I also need some stuff recommended to watch. :'( Preferably a TV show.

You could start watching some German movies. There's a ton of great German films out there.
Yeah.  I think a google for "best german movies" or something will probably yield some results.  Germans make some f-ed horror movies and I dig those so I'll try that too.  Thanks.

Cerveza mas fina

  • I don't care for Islam tbqh
  • filler
Re: Let's teach ourselves a language!
« Reply #119 on: July 26, 2016, 08:38:56 AM »
why german though mups