RUMOR: MS having eSRAM yield problems on Xbox One, downclocking GPU

[Cerveza mas fina]

Straight from Neogafssss.

Apparently the CPU is getting wee downgrade.

I guess all of E3 will be running on two ducktaped boners.

Basically they create a large circular silicon wafer  and put the conducting pathways for the (processor or memory) chip on it. (http://www.geek.com/chips/from-sand-...s-made-832492/ if you want to know how it works)

 On one of these wafers they can fit many chips which they then cut out (like baking a pizza and cutting it into identical slices)

 There will however be defects on the wafer, the chips that occupy the areas that have the defects on them are either useless or can be used as lower end parts by disabling part of the chip
 (like if a gpu has 18 compute units you could only use 16 if the defect is on one of the others, ps4 already does this by only using 18 out of 20 cus so they can have two for redundancy to improve yields)

 Not all of them come out as well as the others and some can handle more voltage than others, so they can be higher clocked.

 Now the problem is that when you have really large chips.
 The larger the chip the bigger the chance that each chip will have a defect. (exponentially much so)
 If you have 10 defects on your wafer but you fit 100 small dies on the wafer then only at most 10 , so ten percent, will be throwaway or salvaged as low end part, but if you only fit 10 on there then it's likely that many of them may have one of those defects.
 You could easily have to throw away 30-50 percent or even all of them.

 Xbox one uses APU which is a really big die that needs to house the cpu, gpu AND in xbox one's case also the ESRAM which takes up a huge amount of transistors and therefor physical space on the chip.
 They end up with little hardware power yet a huge (5 billion transistor) die, so they have low yields.
 Normally low end hardware only takes a tiny little die so yields are good, but for some reason that either MS engineers or suits/beancounters can only know they decided to go for this huge ass APU with esram.

 From my limited knowledge Sony ended up with a lot more bang for their buck... they put their die space into a bit more gpu power and didn't design their apu around needing esram (since they didn't cheap out on the vram, which is a collection of seperate chips that are embedded on a PCB and connected to the APU through a memory bus)
 Meanwhile MS seems to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater.

[Himu]

[Momo]

.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

But the Xbone uses the "infinite power of the cloud" ... and ∞/2 is still ∞.

I don't see the problem here.

[ManaByte]

[maxy]

You can't beat the cloud.

[ManaByte]

Xbone games are going to look like N64 games compared to the PS4.

[Flannel Boy]

Xbone games are going to look like N64 games compared to the PS4.

But then what are N64 games going to look like?

[Tasty]

Xbone games are going to look like N64 games compared to the PS4.

What does that make Wii U, Colecovision?

[Sho Nuff]

I get the feeling that PS4 exclusives are going to dominate the shit out of multiplatform ports

[Flannel Boy]

I get the feeling that PS4 exclusives are going to dominate the shit out of multiplatform ports

This combined with Sony's superior, though nevertheless overrated, first-party titles makes me wonder why anyone would rather buy an xbone.

[fistfulofmetal]

i fucking love the beginning of a new console generation

[Tasty]

I get the feeling that PS3 exclusives are going to dominate the shit out of multiplatform ports

This combined with Sony's superior, though nevertheless overrated, first-party titles makes me wonder why anyone would rather buy a 360.

This is eerily familiar, lol.

[maxy]

i fucking love the beginning of a new console generation

It reminds me of PS3 pre/post launch.

Every day there was some rumor about something going into the wrong direction.Fun times...

[Howard Alan Treesong]

Please underclock.

[Flannel Boy]

This combined with Sony's superior, though nevertheless overrated, first-party titles makes me wonder why anyone would rather buy [an xbone].

This is eerily familiar, lol.
[/quote]
Shoot. I meant xbone.

[Tasty]

Woosh.

[MCD]

Office 2013 with every X1 purchase.

I've got this

[TakingBackSunday]

[Flannel Boy]

Woosh.

Something did go over my head. When was the last time a console-maker was the power-king with superior first-party titles? N64? But the cartridges negated any advantage from its power advantage over the psx. 

[Cerveza mas fina]

Yeah I always thought WHAT IF the N64 had cd's what could Nintendo could have done then?

But then the subsequent 3 gens showed that the N64 was just Nintendo's peak and it wasn't CD's holding them back. Their games have never really evolved beyond N64 levels as far as production values go.

[Flannel Boy]

Mario Galaxy has N64 production values?

[Himu]

jesus christ lager

[mjemirzian]

So on top of the 24 hour checks and forced kinect, it's going to look much worse than PS4? Even more reasons not to ever buy one.

[ManaByte]

Yeah I always thought WHAT IF the N64 had cd's what could Nintendo could have done then?

But then the subsequent 3 gens showed that the N64 was just Nintendo's peak and it wasn't CD's holding them back. Their games have never really evolved beyond N64 levels as far as production values go.

The media wasn't the N64's problem. Its 4k texture cache was.

[hampster]

Yeah I always thought WHAT IF the N64 had cd's what could Nintendo could have done then?

But then the subsequent 3 gens showed that the N64 was just Nintendo's peak and it wasn't CD's holding them back. Their games have never really evolved beyond N64 levels as far as production values go.

Once this year is over you'll find the Wii U having an installed userbase between 8 and 10m once Nintendo release the likes of NSL U, Pikmin 3, The Wonderful 101, Wii Fit, Game & Wario, Wind Waker HD, 3D Mario and Mario Kart 8 between now and Christmas, and there's a good chance they'll give it a $50 price cut too imo.

Thanks to Nintendo's surprising forward thinking with regards to console architecture developers are going to find it a great deal easier to port between the Wii U/PS4/720 than it currently is and has been to port between the Wii U/PS3/360. We've already started to see this being confirmed by Ubisoft developing Watch Dogs using the PC as the lead platform and porting between the current gen platforms with the PS3/360 SKUs being developed independently.

With the marketshare advantage that the Wii U is going to have after a year's head start you'll see publishers making developers code for the Wii U as the lowest common denominator. They're not going to leave that sort of money on the table now that Nintendo have released a console with a standard rendering pipeline.

So, no, you won't have the One holding the PS4 back...you'll have the Wii U holding the PS4 and One back unless a publisher wants to seriously piss off shareholders.

spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=61463117#post61463117

Which one of you is this?

[close]

[Cerveza mas fina]

Mario Galaxy has N64 production values?

Thats the only game nin folk ever bring up. As if its an example of nintendo output. Its the sole exception.

See anything else from them.

[Tasty]

Mario Galaxy has N64 production values?

Thats the only game nin folk ever bring up. As if its an example of nintendo output. Its the sole exception.

See anything else from them.

Xenoblade?

[Bebpo]

Forza dude is spouting off that "resolution is not actually that important to games"


Seems like downgrade is coming and 1080p will be tough for Xbone :|

[Cerveza mas fina]

Sounds like a nintendo fan

[Shaka Khan]

So on top of the 24 hour checks and forced kinect, it's going to look much worse than PS4? Even more reasons not to ever buy one.

Historically speaking, tech limitations have always bred creativity and innovation. We're one step closer to Halo Galaxy, as far as I'm concerned. Spin your body to shoot enemies.

[ManaByte]

Forza dude is spouting off that "resolution is not actually that important to games"


Seems like downgrade is coming and 1080p will be tough for Xbone :|

What will happen when Xbone can't do 1080p, but Wii U can...

[Shaka Khan]

Forza dude is spouting off that "resolution is not actually that important to games"


Seems like downgrade is coming and 1080p will be tough for Xbone :|

Which Forza dude?

[ManaByte]

Forza dude is spouting off that "resolution is not actually that important to games"


Seems like downgrade is coming and 1080p will be tough for Xbone :|

Which Forza dude?

http://www.videogamer.com/xboxone/forza_motorsport_5/news/forza_5_will_run_at_60_frames_per_second_confirms_microsoft.html

Forza Motorsport 5 will run at 60 frames per second, Microsoft Studios corporate vice president Phil Spencer has told Edge magazine.

Confirmation of the smooth frame rate will come as a great relief to series fans who have been left wondering since the game's announcement last month.

Official word came as the Microsoft Studios chief revealed there will be no minimum performance requirements (such as resolution or frame rate) set for games released on Xbox One.

"There were games that shipped on 360 that were less than 720p," said Spencer. "It's important we give creators the best tools to create the best experience possible and I don't think that platform holders can dictate what the internal frame buffer size should be.

"Forza 5 runs at 60 frames per second, but other people will make different trade-offs. I think it's important - maybe because I'm a studio guy - that you give freedom to the creator because today, through lighting techniques and post effects, resolution is not the thing that maximises beauty."

Spencer concluded: "Some of the most beautiful games of this generation are not dictated by how many pixels they're pushing to the screen. Motion blur, antialiasing, lighting: all of these things come into play. We just give developers the tools and let them make the right creative decisions."

[Great Rumbler]

That dude is a moron. Higher resolution makes EVERY game look better, regardless of whatever kind of lighting, AA, and motion blur they're using.

[Cerveza mas fina]

I cant believe even before the gen starts they already need to go sub 1080.

[Steve Contra]

That's actually a crazy reasonable thing to say.  Way to go Manabyte.

[MCD]

Phil Spencer is a cool dude.

He is right, it was fun laughing at Halo 3 and some shoddy ports here and there but now I am too old to care about counting pixels.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Apparently he tweeted again to confirm its 1080p

[MCD]

https://twitter.com/smcinnis/status/342397669832015874

Not Spencer but some gamespot dude.

X1 got a lot of issues but this isn't one.

[Cerveza mas fina]

I heard x2 will solve all issues

Please buy nokia shares

[Bebpo]

Yeah, 720p with good IQ isn't going to be the end of the world next gen.  Hell, if we get games like that this gen we're frothing at the mouths.  I play all my PC stuff 1080p on my tv, console stuff 720p and the 720p doesn't make me go blind or anything.  It's usually the jaggy IQ that's the main annoyance.


But that being said, I just find it a little sad people are already damage controlling expectations to sub-1080p before the consoles are even released. 

[Howard Alan Treesong]

Yeah, 720p with good IQ isn't going to be the end of the world next gen.  Hell, if we get games like that this gen we're frothing at the mouths.  I play all my PC stuff 1080p on my tv, console stuff 720p and the 720p doesn't make me go blind or anything.  It's usually the jaggy IQ that's the main annoyance.


But that being said, I just find it a little sad people are already damage controlling expectations to sub-1080p before the consoles are even released.

I actually run most of my media PC games at 720p with better IQ ... I can't tell the difference on my projector at the distance I sit, and insane frame rate + IQ is better than quasi-janky 1080p for sure.

[DCharlieJP]

Forza dude is spouting off that "resolution is not actually that important to games"

yes it is in a wider context - if the swirling rumours and whispers end up coming out how would THIS one look -if true-

"Third party games will look the same, but possibly 30fps on Xbone, 60fps on PS4"

i mean - most people on the streets maybe wont tell the difference, but surely unless you REALLY love X1 exclusives it's off to Sony land -IF- that turns out to be true.


Bebpo, Treester : This gen has been going on since 2005. 720P is just about okay and, to be honest, if you've been running PCs even 1080P is probably going to start eeking out. This gen might last another 7-8 years. 720P/60fps is a pretty meek target.

[cool breeze]

Between resolution and frame rate, I think frame rate is more noticeable by the common person (once you hit 720p).  Whenever I see games at friends', the picture isn't calibrated and it's all blurry and ugly.  But these same people will say "call of duty feels smoother than battlefield" and refer to frame rate without specifically calling it out.  They don't notice the screen tearing either, which is a gift as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, I can't imagine a difference in frame rate.  It has far more bearing on the gameplay than resolution (again, once you hit 720p).  Lots of 'if's and 'maybe's but if the difference is that pronounced, maybe we'll see 1600x900 vs full HD.  Or, using current PC games as an example, it'll come down to quality of effects (ambient occlusion, post-AA, etc) or something

[mjemirzian]

I'm not a serious tech person, but how is 1080p 60fps possible with that kind of hardware? Are they just going to kill the effects and poly count?

Forza looks cool but no amount of exclusives will make me buy an Xbox One, esp. if they're all games I ignored this gen anyway. (Forza, Halo, Fable, etc.)

[DCharlieJP]

I'm not a serious tech person, but how is 1080p 60fps possible with that kind of hardware?

1080P at 60fps with a 7950 class GPU should be pretty straightforward, no?

[pilonv1]

I'm not a serious tech person, but how is 1080p 60fps possible with that kind of hardware?

1080P at 60fps with a 7950 class GPU should be pretty straightforward, no?

But it will be a downclocked 7950, some guy on a forum told me so its TRUTH

[Purple Filth]

Damn the xbox fans on GAF are coming out in full force 

[mjemirzian]

1080P at 60fps with a 7950 class GPU should be pretty straightforward, no?

Sure on medium settings, forget very high or ultra. Although I guess your average CoD gamer doesn't care much.

[Verdigris Murder]

So does this pretty much mean that they'll release this year and then refresh in the next?

[archnemesis]

If the yields are low they might limit the 2013 release to a single region.

[Cerveza mas fina]

I meaaaan it all depends on the assets of your game, talent, etc etc. There were 1080p 60fps games on the PS3, they were just Super Stardust HD status.

Wipeout hd too I think.

[maxy]

I'm pretty surprised how quickly people take some things for granted,just based on few numbers.It's not like there are tons of publicly available game development papers,game post-mortems,etc etc

TL,DR;
Internet forums are fully packed with game rendering experts,Prole should quit his job and start selling chewing gums

[maxy]

I'm not mad,tech is tech and I love tech.I think they have some very interesting solutions inside that (overheating)box.

Business decisions on the other hand...hmm

[MCD]

stfu maxy

we don't comment on rumors, remember?

[Sho Nuff]

Maaan just you guys wait for E3, 17-BIT got something for all y'all

[MCD]

PLEASE DON'T PORT OUR ONLY WP EXCLUSIVE DON'T DO THIS SHO NUFF

[Purple Filth]

TL,DR;

Maxy's "team" is pulling some SEGA-esque fumbling and he mad

Aren't you basically rubbing salt in his would also 

[maxy]

Maaan just you guys wait for E3, 17-BIT got something for all y'all

Probably something iOS