Triumph rejoice: WoW is dying (for real this time)

[etiolate]

modern mmos a little diffrerent tho

[Cerveza mas fina]

Thats a pretty narrow view.

Plus how are people douches? Fps multi is about shooting people in the face.

Mario Kart is ok, but there is too much lick involved with the power ups for it to be something you can play online, its only good in splitscreen.

[Human Snorenado]

From what I've been able to figure out, fps multi is about 14 year olds letting you know they're racist and that you suck because you have a job and can't play the game 10+ hours a day.

[Cerveza mas fina]

If youre good you dont need to play 10 hours a day.

Not being able to play 10 hours a day is more something for loot based games where this creates inequality beyond skill comparison. Exactly the type of games you like!

Also there are things like matchmaking which for a big part negate difference in skills so you are pitted against people that are in your bracket.

Worrying about 14 year olds is weird as you can mute people with a click.

Lot of misinformation man!

[etiolate]

I farm other players for loot in WvWvW. Best of both worlds.

[Rufus]

Lot of misinformation man!

Leave the old man be, he's set in his ways.

[Human Snorenado]

GET OFF MY FUCKING LAWN

I would say that I don't tell you guys how to enjoy your games, but I totally do, constantly

Oh shit wait, mmos aren't really games, so yeah, again, EAT ALL OF THE DICKS

[Rufus]

Hey, I don't like MMOs either, but for different reasons (the grind and before f2p the fact that they were sub based). With the exception of raids and very involved crafting (which I don't care about), ARPGs scratch the progression and loot itch much better. Tiered MMO loot sucks. 

[Human Snorenado]

SO MUCH VINEGAR

[Human Snorenado]

WoW is just a terrible game all around. Everything about the gameplay mechanics and design were awful.

But you got to experience that terribleness TOGETHER!  WITH OTHER PEOPLE!   

[fistfulofmetal]

I played WoW for about 4 months a 2 years ago. It's not bad. I enjoyed my time overall.

[Freyj]

It's going to be exceeding difficult for anyone to try to explain the allure of the genre as it was before social interaction went out the window in favor of being able to log in for 30 minutes a day, mark off the checklists, and log out to someone who never experienced it and has no interest in it.

It's not about replacing social interaction in real life, it's about having social interaction be a part of slaying dragons. It's supplementing the gameplay with social interaction in lieu of heavy handed story. Sure, there were fucktards a plenty prior to LFG / CrossRealm / whatever, but there were social consequences for being a fucktard or stealing shit or fucking people over. You needed other people to progress whatever goal you were after, and if you made enough of an ass out of yourself you weren't going to have much luck with that. All of this leads to the formation of guilds and friendships by process of elimination. I can't describe it because there really isn't anything like it anymore, but doing world bosses at 3am with a group of 15 or 20 people that you actually like playing with while in direct competition with guilds and players you don't was crazy amounts of fun.

It's like the difference between going to a bar to watch the Stanley Cup Finals with 4 or 5 friends that you enjoy doing shit with and going to a much shittier bar by yourself surrounded by people constantly trying to stick their dicks in your ears while you desperately try to ignore them and just enjoy yourself.

[Himu]

I really enjoyed my time with WoW circa 2009. Best mmo I ever played. Not interested in mmos now though. Too much of a time sink, requires too much dedication, and I'm sick of people asking me to join their mmos. No Pancakes, I am not going to play FF11 with you. FUCK.

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

I've never played an MMO ever.  I avoid playing MOBAs for the same reason.

[Phoenix Dark]

It's a fun game, raiding can be some of the best fun you'll have in a game. It can also be the most work/frustrating thing you'll do.

Triumph would have been a hardcore raider, no fucking doubt in my mind.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Triumph would have been a healer

[etiolate]

PSO is a borderline MMO like Guild Wars 1 was. GW1 called itself a CORPG aka Co-operative RPG and that's what I'd call PSO as well. A step up from the interaction of Diablo but not a full blown world.

To go along with what Freyj said, this is an expereince I had last night playing MMOs. In GW2, I was trying to beat the hardest difficulty of The Canidate Trials with a Guildie. A couple of days ago, I did the Trials solo past tier 3 but couldn't beat the last tier alone. He hadn't gotten to the last tier, so we grouped up that day with a couple of others and made our way to the last tier through some trial and error. Last night, he switched to his theif and managed to solo Tier 4. He  then messaged me asking if I wanted to try it to beat it with two people. So I'm like yeah, let's beat this thing.

The Trials are basically a horde mode where you're trying to protect some treasure from wave after wave of enemies spawn. The key part is killing the Plunderer mobs before they get to your treasure, steal some and return back to their spawn. As long as you have treasure left over when the timer runs out then you succeed. The common approach to beating this is to hide behind the spawn point of the Plunderers and pick them off before they reach the treasure or the larger group of enemy mobs. If you go too far in then you'll aggro the other waves of mobs and they'll eventually jack you up. So this is what we were doing. THe Plunderer would spawn, he would use a theif skill to pull them back and we'd burst the Plunderer down. Eventually we'd have to split since the Plunderers have two spawn points. I would try to keep killing the left hand side with brusting and snares/stuns, while he'd kill the right hand side with a pull and burst. We failed the first couple of times, so I decided to change weapon and traits. New weapon didn't work, so I switched back and stopped using a trait that had been creating aggro problems. We still can't beat it, so we try killing the Plunderers on their way back, but this requires bursting them faster. I change off-hand weapons again and use a weapon with an AOE pull. This doesn't prove to be a problem because the only other nearby mob doesn't care if it gets yanked around. This almost works, but everything falls apart at the end. We try a few more times and I actually switch to another class to see if its better at pulling and snaring the Plunderers. We end up doing this for 2-3 hours without success.

If this was some stranger that queued into my group, they'd quit after we failed the second time. They wouldn't have communicated or tried different strategies. Basically, though it was the same game and I had gathered a group conveniently and automatically, it wouldn't  have worked as well because you need someone who you know and who will strategize with you. Even though we didn't succeed, it was enjoyable to try to beat it. The social element matters.

[Human Snorenado]

I wish I could burn this thread and everyone in it to death

[Human Snorenado]

THANK YOU BASED GROUCH

[Cerveza mas fina]

More complex then 40 people?

 

[Cerveza mas fina]

Go back to pokemons

[Cerveza mas fina]

Its no surprise to me that the people with very outspoken opinions about mmos have never been in the endgame of one.

While many mmo players have in fact played lots of single player rpgs too.

What have you raided oscar?

[Cerveza mas fina]

Ill go out on a limb here and say ive finished more single player rpgs, this gen, then the amount of times you and triumph combined have been on a raid in the endgame of any mmorpg.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Tldr: you're just repeating what other people say, since you have no experience in it.

[etiolate]

I don't think it's much of a surprise that most hardcore MMO players have little experience with the single player RPG genre.

This is where the disconnect comes from.  If you've played a ton of more mechanically complex games in the mother genre, playing MMOs is a bit like going from Civ to FarmVille.  The social aspects just can't make up for the staggering drop in complexity in all aspects.

Not really sure single player RPGs are more complex. I grew up with Squaresoft RPGs and moved on to MMOs later. There are some complex, stat crunchy console RPGs, but there's also some real stat crunchy stuff in MMOs.

The really big difference is how quest structure works and the difficulty of telling a heroic narrative in a MMO environment. If you have a villian die for one person it must still exist for the players who haven't beat that villain.

[Human Snorenado]

[Cerveza mas fina]

You want a list of games I played?

[brob]

If someone dislikes MMOs why would they ever play one long enough to reach the end-game?

[Steve Contra]

http://www.thebore.com/forum/index.php?topic=40518.msg1730119#msg1730119

[etiolate]

In other words, oscar has played one MMO and is speaking for all MMOs and MMO players. It's totally cool cuz it's what the cool people do.

[CajoleJuice]

From what I've been able to figure out, fps multi is about 14 year olds letting you know they're racist and that you suck because you have a job and can't play the game 10+ hours a day.

says the guy who played d3 about 200 hours the first month

[etiolate]

In other words, oscar has played one MMO and is speaking for all MMOs and MMO players. It's totally cool cuz it's what the cool people do.

I've played more than that, but that's the only one I did endgame in, which is what he asked.

Tell me, would you classify yourself as a heavy single player RPG fan?  Surely if I'm wrong, more than half of the MMO players at a hardcore place such as the Bore will be big single player RPG fans, right?

I like single player rpgs, but the ones I've played lately have been western rpgs for the most part. I'm not as heavily into them as say you or tiesto, but I did once really like them. I just had some of them burn me out on the genre. In the past year, I've played Skyrim, Witcher 2, Costume Quest and Bastion. There's simpler single player RPGs among that group. I want to try out Ys and some of the little indie retro titles like Evoland.

In the online arpg territory, I've played D3 beta, T2 beta, and Path of Exile in the past year. In the past year, I've played GW2, Tera, The Secret World and Rift. I guess the amount of single player RPGs to MMOs is a smaller difference than I was expecting, but I've put way more hours into the MMOs.

[Phoenix Dark]

I've played many western RPGs, many mmos, and I love ARPGs mainly. And I can honestly say the most fun I've had in an "RPG" was in end game WoW. Not gonna get into a dick waving contest over it, everyone likes different shit. But I agree with etiolet that it's rather disingenuous to make blanket statements about MMOs when you have little experience with them, much less with good MMO content.

I'll take hard mode Ulduar over most stuff listed in this thread *shrug*

[Rahxephon91]

MMOs are just as fun as single player rpgs. Thats my stance.

[Phoenix Dark]

From what I've been able to figure out, fps multi is about 14 year olds letting you know they're racist and that you suck because you have a job and can't play the game 10+ hours a day.

says the guy who played d3 about 200 hours the first month

dat click fest/social client

[Human Snorenado]

If someone dislikes MMOs why would they ever play one long enough to reach the end-game?

bu bu bu what about the Oligario KIRBY AIR RIDE defense of, "it gets good after 40 hours, trust me!"

[Human Snorenado]

From what I've been able to figure out, fps multi is about 14 year olds letting you know they're racist and that you suck because you have a job and can't play the game 10+ hours a day.

says the guy who played d3 about 200 hours the first month

dat click fest/social client

Most of it SOLO, none of it with anyone more than one degree removed with me, and NEVER, fucking EVER in a public game.

Also, guess who just preordered the PS3 version of D3 and GAVE NO FUCKS WHILE DOING SO. 

[Phoenix Dark]

In 2012 you was getting chased through hell mode
Whispering my crib and I ain't even give you my friend code

[Human Snorenado]

DON'T EAT THE POUTINE, GROUCH

DON'T DO IT

[Human Snorenado]

[Himu]

Have a great wedding Oscar.

[brob]

I don't know what poutine is but internet social media has conditioned me enough that I grimaced at poutine pizza.

[Himu]

I also gotta agree with Oscar on his analysis of mmo's here.

If we are arguing mechanics I think it kinda falls along here:

Wizardry and its clones (this includes SMT), roguelikes, Infinity Engine games, Diablo 1-3, dungeon crawlers (not to be confused with roguelikes and wizardry-likes, though there is some overlap) -> mmos -> most mainstream rpgs ranging from Square stuff, Nintendo rpgs (though the main story in Poke'mon only), Bioware rpgs, Bethesda rpgs, Obsidian rpgs, about anything mainstream and successful.

I haven't played Ultima games aside from 4 so I can't argue its mechanics.

mmo's main appeal comes out when you're in a group. As a soloist, I find them fairly boring, and just tedious affair, though WoW had good moments as a Rogue where I had to sneak around Alliance places without getting caught, and that was great.

But when we get into story, plot, worlds, those single player rpgs blow mmo's out of the water.. Though games like Diablo and Titan Quest suffer tremendously here.

I think the one thing that mmo's do better than most single player games is the sense of scale and adventure. Traveling in an mmo's world, and finding new places, and the allure of being ABLE to survive making it to a new place is, aside from the social aspect, the only major thing that ever appealed to me in mmo's. I love the sense of scale of mmo's, they do that wonderfully.

[Barry Egan]

Dude there's poutine PIZZA now.  Gonna die happy, aww yeah.

stuffed poutine man.  don't ask, just order it. 

[Freyj]

I don't think it's much of a surprise that most hardcore MMO players have little experience with the single player RPG genre.

This is where the disconnect comes from.  If you've played a ton of more mechanically complex games in the mother genre, playing MMOs is a bit like going from Civ to FarmVille.  The social aspects just can't make up for the staggering drop in complexity in all aspects.

Complexity with regard to coordinating 10/25/40 people versus complexity with a single person. Solitaire vs Hockey. Apples and Orangutans.

And it isn't as though XI is the best example in any case here considering its fanbase is an advocate of slow methodical auto attack based combat systems that allow for heavy conversation breaks mid battle. I've played my fair share of it as well.

[D3RANG3D]

 

[Human Snorenado]

[etiolate]

Alright, just one last question, then I have to go pack.  When you play an MMO, what's the best part?  Is it the deep mechanics and/or character growth, the story, or is it the amazing thrill of coordinating with a team to overcome a crazy obstacle?

I suspect it's the latter.  For me, in FFXI, it was the latter.  If it's the latter, you have to understand that that is not only something that has little appeal to single player RPG fans, but actually repels many of them. 

Anyway, I'm more or less off to Canada.  See you fegs in two weeks.

It depends on the MMO. WoW was probably about being first Ally guild on our server to down a raid boss and it was the triumph of finally downing it that was a great high. Along with that, it was pushing for being the first people Ally side on our server to do a successful Bear run on Zul Aman as a friendly PUG. For Guild Wars, it was coming up with PVP builds and then watching those builds become very popular. For LOTRO it was playing with irl friends and hopping about hobbit lands. For GW2, it's a collection of things. I play it mostly for the combat and the world, but it helps a lot of have a great guild to play with which I do. I play The Secret World for the investigation story missions and atmosphere.

Honestly haven't seen shit in a single player RPG that compares to the depth of GW1 builds. And GW2 isn't a bum in that regard either. It's just toned down a good bit and coupled with amazing combat.

[Cerveza mas fina]

Fair enough Oscar I'm happy you've actually played FFXI so you kind of know whats up, although I'm not sure about end game in FFXI since I never reached that.

 As far as MMO's go I played some FFXI before WoW came out, not too much but enough to understand the game, made it out of the dunes and what not. Then I played WoW on and off for 4 years (Druid), doing major raiding in vanilla and tons of PvP later on. I've also played many other MMO's just to see whats up. Star Wars, Eve etc.

Single player RPG's it's all the major suspects. I dabbled into Baldurs Gate and Planescape as a kid but didn't get far. Played Pokemons on my GB, played most of the Final Fantasies, also most of the Square stuff in the 32 bit days (Xenogears, PE). Actually I played lots of jrpg's then like Lunar, Vandal Hearts. On the western front I was playing Fallout 1 and 2, diablo 1 and 2, Kotor, Jade Empire. This gen it was mostly western games Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Oblivion, Skyrim, Fallout, Witcher etc.

[Cerveza mas fina]

What makes mmos so good too?

http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/7/28/4565558/eve-online-biggest-space-battle-in-history

[Rufus]

Nothing besides maybe Ultima Online produces as interesting stories. I'll never play the thing because its Spreadsheets in Space, but the way people interact there and what you can do (pretty much anything, if you orchestrate it right, it seems) is just fascinating.
Oh and it's subscription based, fuck that as well. Although I hear experienced players never actually pay for it because play-time is a commodity as well.

[Great Rumbler]

What makes mmos so good too?

http://mobile.theverge.com/2013/7/28/4565558/eve-online-biggest-space-battle-in-history

Yeah, it's really cool reading about that, not quite as cool actually spending the thousands and thousands of hours required to actually be a part of such an event.

[brob]

If you want to dedicate your life to excel go into accounting or something, at least there you get paid.

[Phoenix Dark]

Excel

[Human Snorenado]

Excel is GOTY for every year

[etiolate]

I wouldn't tell someone who hates playing with others to go out and try an MMO, but there is a lot of generalizing of what MMOs are by people. There's a lot of different MMOs and they aren't all WoW.

Also, to emphasize the Massively Multiplayer Aspect and because I've been wanting to post videos:

This first one is my server. I may actually be in this video. It seems real familiar and I recognize a guildie in voicechat. I just can't find myself in the massive amounts of people.



These next two are more WuvWuv just to demonstrate the massive fights. Also, all the loot that drops. Farming other players.




And yeah some people take WvWvW way too seriously.

This is a dragon fight:

#t=179s

It is an experience you can't get elsewhere. If you hate playing with others then you won't like it, but the concept of Massively Multiplayer Online is as what the name says. It's not just a shitty RPG you play with your friends. It is massive amounts of people playing together.