Entitlemen culture in gaming

[Cerveza mas fina]

Was just looking at a FB post from Blizzard about Hearthstone. There were so many people complaining that they would play it if blizz would release it now but they wont if its any later.

Growing up in the 90's i dont remember this kind of sentiments existed. I know this isnt gaming related but wtf has happened and when did it start?

[MCD]

lazy devs

[Rufus]

Talk is cheap.

[Sho Nuff]

Here at 17-BIT I'm gonna drink some forties and get some pizza for lunch, then grab a growler of apricot ale for the afternoon and maybe make a spaceship BUT ONLY IF I FEEL LIKE IT

[chronovore]

I think it is the Internet culture of being able to run one's mouth, not only with relative anonymity, but also no accountability for one's pseudonymous claims.

In this case, the proclaimers will be lining up for virtual foil packs on day zero, like little sycophants, despite their claims. And no one will say anything cross about their bullshit.

Back when there were only usenet and BBS systems for nerds, the communities were smaller and marginally more accountable. Or so it felt to me.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

it sucks and is killing the game industry by driving otherwise sane people out

people like me

I was working on Hearthstone!

[chronovore]

You should post that article about creepers threatening gamers.

Oh, wait, I found it:
http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/swimming-in-a-sea-of-shit-the-internets-war-against-creatives

The truth is, I've left the industry before, and come back to it. I could leave again, and am seriously considering that. There are easier ways to make more money. And those ways don't commonly have fans, which is short for "fanatic," which is a clue about the missing rationality common to the breed.

[Howard Alan Treesong]

You should post that article about creepers threatening gamers.

Oh, wait, I found it:
http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/swimming-in-a-sea-of-shit-the-internets-war-against-creatives

The truth is, I've left the industry before, and come back to it. I could leave again, and am seriously considering that. There are easier ways to make more money. And those ways don't commonly have fans, which is short for "fanatic," which is a clue about the missing rationality common to the breed.

sometimes I think I'd like to get back in - I relaunched the GIA in part as an outlet to help me curb that enthusiasm

[chronovore]

You write really well, and you are a careful thinker. I get happy just reading your stuff and watching how you think. I think the GIA is a great outlet for your creativity, and staying immersed in the industry's progress.

If you want convincing to stay away from the industry, just go read NeoGAF.

[Phoenix Dark]

I'm more shocked that people exist who think Blizzard releases stuff in a "timely" fashion. It'll be done when it's awesome, chill the fuck out young nerds.

[Great Rumbler]

It'll be done when it's awesome

So when's Diablo 3 going to be done?  :xbone

[Rufus]

As someone who hasn't created anything that's been scrutinized by more than a handful of people, does the negativity wear you down that much?

[Phoenix Dark]

It'll be done when it's awesome

So when's Diablo 3 going to be done?  :xbone

 

[Human Snorenado]

It'll be done when it's awesome

So when's Diablo 3 going to be done?  :xbone

HEY

 

[Rufus]

Come on, I'm pretty sure you yourself have said that D2 wasn't good until LoD came out in response to the internet-wide whinging about D3. 

[Human Snorenado]

Truth.

I don't like to bring that up around Lager though, as he had never played LoD and still was making the claim that D2 >>>> D3.

(all the while never even having made it to Inferno, I think)

[Joe Molotov]

Because the Internet.

[Phoenix Dark]

Truth.

I don't like to bring that up around Lager though, as he had never played LoD and still was making the claim that D2 >>>> D3.

(all the while never even having made it to Inferno, I think)

[Mr. Gundam]

You should post that article about creepers threatening gamers.

Oh, wait, I found it:
http://penny-arcade.com/report/article/swimming-in-a-sea-of-shit-the-internets-war-against-creatives

The truth is, I've left the industry before, and come back to it. I could leave again, and am seriously considering that. There are easier ways to make more money. And those ways don't commonly have fans, which is short for "fanatic," which is a clue about the missing rationality common to the breed.

That article doesn't really address the fact that Fish couldn't take the shit that he was so happy to dish out on a frequent basis. It also states that he's not crazy.

Otherwise, good article.

[Positive Touch]

i'll never forget hearing jeremy blaustein say that the crappy story in silent hill 3 and the crappy combat in silent hill 4 were done because they listened to internet whiners. of course, they are kind of dumb for ever listening to internet whiners or assuming that they are a large part of the fanbase and should be catered to, but still

[Stoney Mason]

I'm never quite sure what point people are quite making on this topic.

The reality is that people are more cynical and negative than they've ever been in most cases and that goes for nearly everything not just games. So this "war on artists" thing strikes me as overstating the situation. It's not just game makers. People are cynical about everything. If you love the thing you do though, I don't understand giving up that thing strictly because the of the vocal crazy minority

I find internet videogame nerds to probably be more annoying than other niche nerds I guess but to me its because the relationship is also wrong. I don't think developers should be out there as the face of the product on twitter constantly talking about their product because all that does is encourage the psychos to hunt you down and pretend they have a relationship with you by constantly communicating with you. I think there should be separation between a creator and his fans and twitter violates that imo.  And people willingly enter into this situation when they overly engage their fans to communicate with them via such means.

Or if you are going to do that, you should know up front you are going to need the skin of a rhino.

I use to like forums and talking about games with other people but something has poisoned that concept with me over the last 5 to 10 years. It is worse in many ways than it was before and I think that is largely because gaming has increasingly added all the annoying things surrounding making a lifestyle choice versus just being a hobby you happen to have. Same thing happened to me with rap music I noticed a long time ago.

[chronovore]

Stoney, I agree.

I do wish that there could be some acknowledgment of creators, and some sense of celebrity for those who want it (I don't), though I don't know what shape that would take. Fans of movies know who the stars are, and in some cases the director and even the soundtrack composer, but rare do fans care who the costume designer was, or the cinematographer (which is a big shock to me), production designer, etc.

As someone who hasn't created anything that's been scrutinized by more than a handful of people, does the negativity wear you down that much?

It is pretty disheartening when people call devs "lazy," especially fans who theoretically know we're working 60 or 80 hour weeks. It's also sad-making when people judge based on the game they'd been expecting in their head, instead of the game we shipped. That happens a lot, even with games journalists reviewing something, and going entirely off in some weird direction.

It's also annoying to work on a franchise, and be caught in the double-bind of changing something from the previous iteration. People claim we're shipping the same game year after year if we don't change a given feature but, if we do change it, a whole 'nother group will take up pitchforks.

The truth is, though, every one person who writes in to tell you that they enjoyed your game negates ten complaints, and any mail claiming the game helped them through a rough time or introduced them to a friend or otherwise influenced their life, that's worth at least a hundred complaints. Those notes can buoy us above a lot of crap.

[etiolate]

blizzard fans are insufferable

News at 11

[Cerveza mas fina]

But where did this cynical approach come from?

Is it because of the final victory of capitalism, and that almost everything is exposed now as a money making venture, so we as consumers feel it should cater to us more? then of course whine there are no bold choices cause everything is focus group tested.

Truth.

I don't like to bring that up around Lager though, as he had never played LoD and still was making the claim that D2 >>>> D3.

(all the while never even having made it to Inferno, I think)

Ok two things

1. I played LoD but didn't like the runes stuff so I quit.
2. I did make it to Inferno.

So all in all, everything you said is not true.

[brob]

But where did this cynical approach come from?

A lot of people disassociate themselves from their online persona (they use terms like 'irl' because the internet isn't-, and doesn't affect 'real life'). Online interactions lack a lot of the tools we use to build empathy and many of the foundations of how we have been trained to socialize, so people find it much easier to be ruthlessly harsh or straight up antagonistic and rude on the internet - maybe they even find this sort of online behavior a catharsis for whatever emotions they are unable to deal with 'irl'. It also doesn't help that everything that is made available on the internet is forever available for scrutiny and ridicule. 

So people have a cynical approach because it's a system that is almost tailor made to cultivate sociopathy in people, even if it is contained within it's own little bubble.

[chronovore]

The focus group crap also affects Hollywood movies, so everything which costs a lot of movie is going to play it safe. Nothing new there. It is just that games have finally come so far in production value that they fit into that rule. Sadly, we are even seeing how one big failure can lead to closure of veteran studios.

In the case of Rhythm and Hues, even successes aren't enough to keep them going.

The upside is the small company growth opportunities which have been blossoming. Really creative stuff coming from indie studios lately. And digital distribution and word of mouth are creating success stories.

[Rufus]

The Rhythm and Hues case just sounds screwed up all around.

Inside, during the Oscars, when R&H visual effects supervisor Bill Westenhofer brought up R&H during his acceptance speech for Life of Pi, the microphone was cut off.[20] This started an uproar among many visual effects industry professionals, changing profile pictures on social media such as Facebook and Twitter to show the green key colour, in order to raise awareness for what is happening to the effects industry.[21] In addition, director Ang Lee was heavily criticized by the community for not acknowledging their work in the effects-laden film in his acceptance speech (when he seemed to thank just about everyone else)[22] and for earlier complaining about the costs of visual effects.[22][23]

[Cerveza mas fina]

Im sorry I never heard of this RH story before

[StealthFan]

Why does everything have to have a culture? Rape culture. Entitlement culture

[Cerveza mas fina]

Its just a buzzword.

Like war on this and that.

[magus]

Why does everything have to have a culture? Rape culture. Entitlement culture

culture culture

[brob]

Commander Cock is all about that counter culture

[chronovore]

The most amazing thing about the R&H situation is that every other aspect of filmmaking is covered by various guilds and unions, which off protection and minimum costs for well defined types of labor. Effects and such do not have a guild, but despite everyone's claim that it would solve everything, I don't think it could.

There is enough effects work being handled by houses in other countries that it is impossible to determine a competitive living wage. Setting a Computer Artist Guild wage which allowed one country's worker to live in a large house with a full staff would probably not let a Los Angelino even get a room in a shared house AND eat for the month.

[chronovore]

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013/08/08/new-ps3-visualizer-app-from-q-games-out-tuesday/

tl;dr - Pixeljunk makers put out new, cheap visualizer for PS3, world responds that it should be free.

WHY? WHY DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE FREE, WORLD? DEFINE YOUR GODDAMNED REASONS.

[brob]

I assume these reasons: Visualizers are assumed to be a standard part of music playback programs. A visualizer sold stand-alone is perceived as a (expected?) feature update being sold instead of just implemented for free.

[Human Snorenado]

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013/08/08/new-ps3-visualizer-app-from-q-games-out-tuesday/

tl;dr - Pixeljunk makers put out new, cheap visualizer for PS3, world responds that it should be free.

WHY? WHY DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE FREE, WORLD? DEFINE YOUR GODDAMNED REASONS.

Because it's a product that people probably don't care enough about to pay money for.  It's a, "oh that's nice, I want it.  wait, money?  I can live without it." situation.

Sell it for a dollar and see if I'm wrong.  The internet is not where you go to get an "atta boy" for shit you're working on; everyone is too spergtastic once you get into a big enough audience.  Make a product that people actually want if you want to get validation for your effort.

(That sounds really dickish, but I think it's true.)

[davepoobond]

we live in a time of immediacy.  everyone wants something now, and companies feed into that by holding off on announcements and shit until the very last minute.  and social media plays into it perfectly, as well.

it is almost as if announcing a game that isn't ready to be released is bad.

[chronovore]

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2013/08/08/new-ps3-visualizer-app-from-q-games-out-tuesday/

tl;dr - Pixeljunk makers put out new, cheap visualizer for PS3, world responds that it should be free.

WHY? WHY DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD BE FREE, WORLD? DEFINE YOUR GODDAMNED REASONS.

Because it's a product that people probably don't care enough about to pay money for.  It's a, "oh that's nice, I want it.  wait, money?  I can live without it." situation.

Sell it for a dollar and see if I'm wrong.  The internet is not where you go to get an "atta boy" for shit you're working on; everyone is too spergtastic once you get into a big enough audience.  Make a product that people actually want if you want to get validation for your effort.

(That sounds really dickish, but I think it's true.)

I think it's true as well, but "gimme that for free" is not the same as "meh, I don't really want a new visualizer."

Do you mean sell it for a dollar instead of 3, or do you mean sell it for a dollar instead of 3?