Gender Roles and Children

[Mupepe]

Can we have this conversation here?  It's going on at GAF but I hate participating in any kind of discussion like this there because people tend to be nuts.

The vast majority of parents today learn their baby’s sex months before the birth, resulting in the cradle crowd being born into a pink-and-blue ghetto the likes of which were unseen a generation ago.

So concludes a new academic study in which the consumption of mothers who gave birth in the 1970s is compared with that of modern moms. The research finds infants today are far likelier to spend their first months wearing gendered clothing, sleeping in gendered nurseries and interacting with gendered objects than infants born three decades ago.

Whether this shift is harmless or has sinister long-term consequences for children’s future is the question.

“Although society, in general, is getting to a place where men and women’s lives are more similar than they were a couple of decades ago, this is an area where things are actually becoming MORE gendered,” said study author Medora Barnes, assistant professor of sociology at John Carroll University in Ohio.

Previous studies on antenatal sex-determination by ultrasound have shown that the majority of pregnant women in the United States — 75 to 81 per cent, by some estimates — want to know their unborn baby’s sex. In Canada, research out of Western University similarly pegs it around eight in 10.

Barnes’ qualitative study, to appear in the Journal of Consumer Culture, finds that today’s moms, compared to those who gave birth in the 70s, when ultrasounds weren’t widely offered, start shopping earlier (often as soon as they learn they’re pregnant); are likelier to register for baby shower items, thus exercising control over the types of merchandise received; and, when sex is known, are highly prone to buying boy- or girl-specific items.

“Every single (younger) person purchased gendered clothing, and all of them were purchasing gendered items for the home,” said Barnes, noting that even mothers who were uncomfortable with such stereotyping admitted to engaging in the behaviour. “In the absence of any other information, and you’re trying to plan for your child, the sex is the one thing you can run with.”

Naturally, this practice is encouraged by the baby-product industry, as it means the family will likely need to buy all new merchandise if a subsequent child is of the opposite sex. Barnes said the result is that infancy — a time when kids were, historically, least likely to encounter gendered items — is now being spent surrounded by products that socialize youngsters into very narrow ideas about what it means to be male or female.

“This is something that hasn’t been explored,” said Barnes. “We need to pay more attention to how it affects the women while they’re pregnant, as well as the long-term effects it has on babies after they’re born.”

Already, there’s evidence that infants are influenced by their surroundings from a very young age. The Campaign for a Commercial-Free Childhood reports that babies are able to form mental images of logos and mascots by just six months.

And because a wide body of research shows that people interact with babies differently based on perceived sex — boys tend to be bounced, for example, while girls are touched more gently — it stands to reason that related consumer choices make a difference.

Western University’s Jennifer Chisholm, an expert on Canadian ultrasound culture, said gender unveiling is actually largely driven by a desire to shop.

“The reasons women gave for wanting to find out the sex definitely revolved around consumer decisions — knowing whether to buy pink or blue clothes, and what colour to paint the nursery,” said Chisholm, who is unaffiliated with Barnes’ research.

“All the women I interviewed seemed to agree that finding out the sex of their fetus was pretty standard, and of those who chose not to find out, they were very aware that this decision placed them outside the norm.”

http://www.canada.com/health/Baby+blues+pinks+Parents+buying+into+stereotypes+even+before+little+ones+born+study+shows/9033949/story.html

I think a lot of this is making a mountain out of a mole hill.  Parents are going to influence their children no matter what.  The key is acceptance of something other than what you might prefer. 

For example, when I have my son I will buy him car toys.  I will buy him little action figures and toy guns.  This is just because it's what I know.  It's the culture I grew up with.  But if my son decides he wants to carry a doll around or that he'd like his shirt to be pink instead of blue I'm not going to freak out.  I'm going to buy my son a pink shirt and a doll.  Why?  Because it's his life, not mine.  He's free to make that decision when he decides to. 

My daughter played with those plastic army men when she was a child too.  But she also had a pink kitchen.  I'll love my child whatever the hell they decide to play with.  But I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with buying a boy traditionally male toys or clothes.  There seems to be a wave of paranoia in certain groups that it's sexist to do so.  It drives me nuts.

[Mupepe]

Oh yeah, I don't understand that either.  But I always grew up in places where we couldn't change it so maybe that why I don't get it (apartments, wood panel trailers [ ], etc.).  Our rooms were always whatever color the landlord had it.

[CatsCatsCats]

Well, I might that argue expecting a child to request toys not specific to their gender if they have interest is putting a bit of unfair pressure on them. If they're not offered or made available, why would the kid ever have a chance to form the thought they might want them?

Is it sexist to buy a boy "boy things?" No, but by excluding the possibility of "girl things" as a parent you're making the implication they're not for them

[brob]

I think it's more interesting to look at this issue from the position of the toy stores who segregates childrens toys into blue and pink. Raising a girl on plastic ovens, dolls in strollers and disney movies seems dicey to me.

As far as parents go, I think a lot of this idealist minutia takes a backseat to the ''holyshit how does this baby work jesus why''

[Mupepe]

How would I be excluding it though? I think the key is making sure your children are comfortable in expressing what they want to play with or wear and knowing that it doesn't matter to dad. I.e. Not walking around saying "that's for girls, son". I think it has more to do with the attitude the parent exhibits than what the parent actually buys.  I'm not going to tell him "that section is for girls" at a toy store, ya know?

[Mupepe]

The clothes thing is different though. Seems like having a boy who wanted to wear dresses would be hard to deal with from a bunch of different angles.  Toys are whatever though.

I think I would have to be straight up with my son about how people are going to treat him. If it was something he was set on I would make sure he knew I loved him and would support him but that the world will be hostile.

[CatsCatsCats]

A two year old cant articulate "Gee, I'd really like a Barbie"

I, personally, feel for those formative years having all kinds of toys around is the best approach. And there's been studies to show that little boys who fiddle around with dolls typically grow up to be more confident and comfortable in their sexuality.

[Mupepe]

Yeah, I can see your point there. Again though, I think it goes back to getting rid of boundaries when he is choosing. Take him to a store. Tell him to pick anything. "have you looked over there?" IMO that's the only way to make it truly their choice. 

[Mupepe]

Thinking back on it, the only girl toys i wanted were those EZ bake ovens. Those were cool as shit.

I just used my sisters. Good brownies bro

[CatsCatsCats]

Sure that works when they're old enough to pick things, that seems to me to be obvious. But a baby doesn't come out ready to pick things. At that point it's about letting them choose what they want, but before they can its about giving them a well rounded foundation. If they never get the chance to play with a doll, they're not going to have any reason to want to explore that when it's time for them to choose. I feel like there's an implication being made somewhere here that a boy playing with a doll means he is or will be gender queer, which is absurd.

Eta: I guess it's because I feel like you're saying you wouldn't buy a boy a doll unless he asked

[Great Rumbler]

Thinking back on it, the only girl toys i wanted were those EZ bake ovens. Those were cool as shit.

High-five, Esch!

[Mupepe]

Sure that works when they're old enough to pick things, that seems to me to be obvious. But a baby doesn't come out ready to pick things. At that point it's about letting them choose what they want, but before they can its about giving them a well rounded foundation. If they never get the chance to play with a doll, they're not going to have any reason to want to explore that when it's time for them to choose. I feel like there's an implication being made somewhere here that a boy playing with a doll means he is or will be gender queer, which is absurd.

Eta: I guess it's because I feel like you're saying you wouldn't buy a boy a doll unless he asked

I get what you're saying. I would buy him whatever if he shows an interest. There's also a lot of children in my extended family so its not like he wont ever have a chance to play with one. I guess that's another assumption in making about my future child. I don't see a scenario where he wont have a chance to play with one and express interest.

[nudemacusers]

Thinking back on it, the only girl toys i wanted were those EZ bake ovens. Those were cool as shit.

Most 'girl' toys are shit. Never realized that until I started toy shopping for my son. There is a web comic about this and it's true; girls get boring dolls with some clothes, boys get Legos etc.

[CatsCatsCats]

Well, girls only get those if that's all you buy them

@Mups -- I still feel like waiting for him to show interest is putting it off on him. His cousins may discourage him from using their "girl" toys and it might not lead to that chance either. But theres not a huge disparity in our thoughts here so I won't push my thinking any further as though it were superior.

[Diunx]

If I have a boy someday he is not sleeping in a fucking pink room, sorry PC freaks.

[Mupepe]

Well, girls only get those if that's all you buy them

@Mups -- I still feel like waiting for him to show interest is putting it off on him. His cousins may discourage him from using their "girl" toys and it might not lead to that chance either. But theres not a huge disparity in our thoughts here so I won't push my thinking any further as though it were superior.

yeah. I think we will just have to agree to disagree. Maybe I just want him to have some army men so I can play too haha

[Raban]

get him a Barbie so you can recreate Attack of the 50-Foot Woman with your army men

[Mr. Gundam]

My daughter can play with whatever she wants, but we're not buying her Disney princess shit.

Right now she's big on Duplos, feeding her stuffed animals, and everything is a phone.

[CatsCatsCats]

Yeah, if/when (I can only hope!!) we have a daughter, we would be careful to avoid anything that casts girls in a subservient or lesser role ie Disney Princess. But those aren't all bad, like you know, Brave for example.

[Huff]

why buy toys when you can give them an ipad?

[Mr. Gundam]

Yeah, if/when (I can only hope!!) we have a daughter, we would be careful to avoid anything that casts girls in a subservient or lesser role ie Disney Princess. But those aren't all bad, like you know, Brave for example.

Yeah, we know that. My wife is actually very fond of Little Mermaid, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty, etc., but we're not going to expose her to that stuff until she's older.

Once she's old enough to sit through a movie, it's gonna be Studio Ghibli, Muppets and Pixar stuff. And Fantastic Mr. Fox.

[Eric P]

But those aren't all bad, like you know, Brave for example.

did you know that they changed her "official" design to make her more of a sex pot?

new on left

[Himu]

Not all Disney stuff is bad. for example, Tangled and Mulan would be fine for a little girl.

If I had children I'd let them do what they want. If they like Disney Princess shit or Tonka, that's fine. I don't think there's anything wrong with the Disney princess stuff so long as the children are taught that the world doesn't work that way and to balance it with a healthy dose of other type of stories. Then again, I'm not a parent so I'm talking out of my ass.

[Huff]

why buy toys when you can give them an ipad?

easy access to porn?

(Image removed from quote.)

Those little fuckboys better work for that shit.

like turn on the computer?

porns almost too easy to get these days

[Rufus]

They will beat off in front of it, no matter what. Get a chair that you can wipe off, because that thing will be "claimed".

Unless you also commit to someone being there all the time to at least threaten to look over their shoulder. But even then, girls at least can be pretty discrete...

Actually, fuck all that, you know they'll have a smartphone and/or tablet.  Masturbate EVERYWHERE.

[nudemacusers]

Family room computer won't matter. All I needed at 13 was a FLASH of titty or pus and I could jizz for days. Tabbed browsing would have been a game changer for my younger self.

[CatsCatsCats]

At least we can all agree on the importance of masturbation 

[Phoenix Dark]

[Eel O'Brian]

The main thing I'm getting out of all this is kids are spoiled as fuck

[Van Cruncheon]

wondering if I should be a dick and only let my kids use a 'family' computer in the living room

i already do this

also all device cameras are disabled

[radioheadrule83]

I think the colours and bedroom / clothing conventions a kid is borne into are probably less damaging than the horrible attitudes they would have been exposed to - even only in the 70s or 80s - which isn't that long ago.

I don't have kids myself, but I have a young nephew. I remember being out with my sister and him when he was about 2/3 and we'd explained Halloween to him, and that he could pick a costume from the store we were in -- he pointed towards and asked for a Princess costume. Me and my sister looked at each other amused, but speaking about it afterwards we were kinda like 'why the fuck not, let him wear what he wants to wear - he's still young enough that no-ones going to give him shit for it'. He eventually picked Spiderman, but that's besides the point. Our attitudes would have been non-existant in the past.

Having a youngun' in the family has made me reconsider some views though. I've always held that videogames are harmless, and I'm sure they're as harmless as any other form of media... but I've definitely observed something I never noticed in my own life. You can sit my nephew in front of his hero, Spiderman, and he'll be hard to get through to -- but he'll be able to hear you. Sit him with a 3DS in his hand playing Fireman Sam or Mario, or stick a phone in his hand with Angry Birds or whatever -- he literally cannot hear you. Its made me reconsider what this does to the social lives of young people. Its like they haven't grown the multitasking ability yet, the ability to be fascinated and yet open to external action... he becomes, literally, zombie like.

I'm sure I was the same in the 80s/90s, but seeing it is disturbing. I can see why parents worry. When he comes to my house to visit he always wants Mario or Sonic Racing, or to watch comic superheroes on Netflix.. I find myself torn between allowing it, because I had it, and trying to coax him outside -- which I never really did myself

[Phoenix Dark]

If my daughter gravitated to princess shit I wouldn't stop her. However best believe I'm going to paint my son's room Honolulu blue (Detroit Lions) and give him a bunch of my old toys. I still have my Hulk Hogan plush doll, still have a nice Optimus Prime toy, most of my GI Joes, etc


I'll also make it quite clear that Camel music isn't allowed in the house. Only Nasir Jones will bless his ears

[radioheadrule83]

It's funny how we indoctrinate kids sometimes

my nephew's cheating ass dad is a rugby fan, but me and my brothers have taught him that his dads' favourite sport is rubbish and that Steven Gerrard (LFC) is his new God. I'd never seek to turn him against his own dad, but I love the little victories of turning him onto something his dad doesn't like or doesn't get

If I can make him understand Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Optimus Prime, we will share in that glory.

Hulkimania must endure.

[Shadow Mod]

Whatever you do buy your kids legos. At least then they learn how to build and create.

[naff]

Not sure how gendered my family was, I remember mostly playing with gi joes micromachines and legos with my sister and we had boxes of dress up clothes we were pretty into. we picked up a barbie caravan once which got added to the gi joe fleet and she had one of those fake babies u look after. But we mostly played with the same stuff.

Crux of the story seemed to be don't buy poorly made gendered shit for the sake of it, the corporates are laughing all the way to the bank, and all the good toys seem pretty neutral imo

[radioheadrule83]

Not sure how gendered my family was, I remember mostly playing with gi joes micromachines and legos with my sister and we had boxes of dress up clothes we were pretty into. we picked up a barbie caravan once which got added to the gi joe fleet and she had one of those fake babies u look after. But we mostly played with the same stuff.

Crux of the story seemed to be don't buy poorly made gendered shit for the sake of it, the corporates are laughing all the way to the bank, and all the good toys seem pretty neutral imo

I'm the oldest male in my immediate family and we have an older sister who is a good 6 years older than us... we've got old home videos of this one Christmas when we were given ghostbusters Proton Packs and a Ghost Trap -- we're all content and shit for 5 minutes, then we're fighting like savages over the cardboard box to our sisters' doll house. We're marketed stuff, but when you're young enough, imagination is king. From the way we fight, that box must have had some higher importance to our primitive minds

The likes of Micromachines, Legos and Scalectrix are indeed the best - the neutral toys. I was a bit older than my brothers so I was lucky enough to experience my own generation of toys, but also that of my younger brothers... the likes of K'nex etc. Is that still going? Cos that was cool too...

[Your Stalker]

It's funny how we indoctrinate kids sometimes

What's the point of having kids otherwise?

free housekeeping

[radioheadrule83]

It's funny how we indoctrinate kids sometimes

What's the point of having kids otherwise?

essentially because my dick says - ooo she's hot, shut up spaz, go spooge

[nudemacusers]

It's funny how we indoctrinate kids sometimes

What's the point of having kids otherwise?

free housekeeping

If this is part of the deal I want a refund.

[Rufus]

It's funny how we indoctrinate kids sometimes

What's the point of having kids otherwise?

To wipe our wrinkled asses once we can't.

[radioheadrule83]

Maybe they do that in Europe, but in the USA once that happens you're sent to a home and you never see your loved ones again.

UK is much like USA in that regard, or certainly our wrinklies are self-sufficient, but we are edging closer to cultures where we can only afford to live with grandparents and great-grandparents, so I'm confident there will be many a wrinkled pooper in my descendants future

[Rufus]

Maybe they do that in Europe, but in the USA once that happens you're sent to a home and you never see your loved ones again.

It's largely that way here, too. Go to a home where they treat you like chattel. Flip a coin on whether or not you'll get mistreated (starved, not washed, lobotomized with meds and left in front of a TV, etc.). We're going back to societies where you're essentially worthless once you become an "eater".

[Himu]

Good god the west needs fucking Confucianism in its social structure before I turn old, I swear.

[nudemacusers]

Good god the west needs fucking Confucianism in its social structure before I turn old, I swear.

I'll wipe your ass now bb

[Himu]

Thankfully I am black and we take care of our old folk in my family.

[chronovore]

The idea that the pre-birth influence will outweigh the parents' and world influence in the first few years is crazy.

Crazy.

The best thing parents can do is listen to their kids and support them, which is rare enough a thing, even not addressing gender issues.

[nudemacusers]

Thankfully I am black and we take care of our old folk in my family.

well yeah, a lot less of you make it that far.

[Diunx]

Ether

[Phoenix Dark]

Life is harsh, hug me.

[nudemacusers]

training camps aren't homes breh

[Mupepe]

He didnt miss much. The internet pre high speed.....

(Image removed from quote.)

whaaaa?  Those were some great days.  Photoshopped Britney Spears nudies and Kazaa/Morpheus/Napster!!

[Mr. Gundam]

Studio 360 had an entire hour devoted to Disney Parks this past weekend, and a segment focused on the whole princess thing. Really interesting piece.

http://www.studio360.org/story/american-icons-the-disney-parks/

[Rufus]

The internet pre flatrates... 

Man, Kazaa. Those "tag cloud" file names...

[Optimus]

I don't want kids but if I had one I'm sure that both it and I wouldn't give a shit about the wall color and that my priority would be to find for it toys that assist its brain development the first few years. When it's grown up enough to show me what it wants it can buy whatever, I don't care.

[Positive Touch]

searching for porn at 2400 bps



racing against time to find something good before you used up too much of your monthly 5 hour limit and started getting questioned by the parents

[Olivia Wilde Homo]

Back in the 56k days (real connection would be 21.4 kbps or 26.4 kbps, and download speeds varied greatly) I would usually get off before a picture fully downloaded.  I also had a secret hotmail (does that even exist anymore lol) account where I had porn stories e-mailed to it.  I eventually unsubscribed because there were maybe a dozen stories that they would just reuse.  The biggest achievement was 26 second video clip of some girl riding some dick that had shitty video quality, no audio, and took half a morning to download.

[Phoenix Dark]

Shout out to my niccas who used to download porn on Kazaa with a 56k AOL connection. I'd download 1-2 minutes of a porno and just make due with that.

Shout out to my niccas who would go to those porn sites with preview videos/tours. I used to put the computer mouse on the left side of the computer, have ten windows open, then watch the 1min preview on each window and quickly move to the next page (with my left hand) as I jerked with my right. Fastest way to create a 10 minute porn back then.

[nudemacusers]

I know I checked out porno vids on 56k as a kid but I really don't remember how I went about it exactly; we had just one phone line so I couldn't hide it away downloading all day. I think it was mostly realplayer streaming shit, so I probably got a 120p window and a few seconds at a time. which is all it takes, even now, really.

[brawndolicious]

Man I remember left-handed mouse browsing but I think we had high speed by the time I was comfortable touching myself. I remember it was Keyra Augustina when I was 16.

On that note, at what age would you let them wear a thong (for either boys or girls)?

[nudemacusers]

depends on how nice they looked in them

wait, that didn't sound right