Author Topic: 1,000+ Pages of NeoGAF: The Story of Wasted Lives and Hardcore Salt (Read 5966421 times)

Kara · « **Reply #36180 on:** July 02, 2015, 04:17:43 PM »

As a rule, post-apocalyptic entertainment is devoid of any redeeming social commentary.

Van Cruncheon · « **Reply #36181 on:** July 02, 2015, 04:22:17 PM »

Quote from: Vularai on July 02, 2015, 04:17:43 PM

As a rule, post-apocalyptic entertainment is devoid of any redeeming social commentary.

any effective messaging doesn't suggest life after an apocalypse

suppadoopa · « **Reply #36182 on:** July 02, 2015, 04:22:28 PM »

Quote from: Take My Breh Away on July 02, 2015, 08:17:22 AM

Remember that tweet we kept hearing about before the console launches

(Image removed from quote.)

awh

Steve Youngblood · « **Reply #36183 on:** July 02, 2015, 04:24:26 PM »

Quote from: Shadow Mod on July 02, 2015, 03:59:05 PM

Quote from: Steve Youngblood on July 02, 2015, 03:12:47 PM
Quote from: Queen of Ice on July 02, 2015, 03:10:37 PM
pretty sure people saw her criticisms as targeting Mad Max like so many MRA's were doing at the time. It was just a misinterpretation. Either that, or people still saw it as an attack on Mad Max (i.e. "Mad Max: Fury Road is good but it's not good enough") and not being happy with the way things are going in light of (small) progress. That's what I saw from it, anyways. Basically they were saying,"this is a positive thing, so why are you complaining?" they weren't really paying attention to what she was actually saying.

Well, the bigger issue to me is that a lot of that nuance is invariably going to get lost just because of the chosen platform. Twitter is not a good platform for that type of conversation.

It works both ways. It is also just a quick broadcasting platform until you link an article or video expanding your ideas. Getting flummoxed about the lack of nuance when it's also an advertising mechanism is showing your age a bit. I know because I fall into the same patterns of thinking about twitter.

I don't like these new-fangled twitter tweets. Get off my lawn you lousy kids!

I'm a Puppy! · « **Reply #36184 on:** July 02, 2015, 04:32:54 PM »

Quote from: Vularai on July 02, 2015, 04:17:43 PM

As a rule, post-apocalyptic entertainment is devoid of any redeeming social commentary.

Nope. Far better to take social commentary for Nintendo games

Kara · « **Reply #36185 on:** July 02, 2015, 04:35:29 PM »

Quote from: Van Cruncheon on July 02, 2015, 04:22:17 PM

Quote from: Vularai on July 02, 2015, 04:17:43 PM
As a rule, post-apocalyptic entertainment is devoid of any redeeming social commentary.

any effective messaging doesn't suggest life after an apocalypse

Life always finds a way, didn't u watch Jurassic Park.

FStop7 · « **Reply #36186 on:** July 02, 2015, 04:38:40 PM »

Quote from: Dufus on July 02, 2015, 07:19:36 AM

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170657956&postcount=108

Jesus.

CRAWWWLING IN MY SKIIINN

studyguy · « **Reply #36187 on:** July 02, 2015, 04:41:57 PM »

I guess it's time to go back to hand writing open letters then posting them to the city square for all to see.

Tweets are silly but at the very least they aren't image macros where an entire argument is encapsulated in two sentences overlayed infront of an image of a penguin or some shit.

Shadow Mod · « **Reply #36188 on:** July 02, 2015, 04:56:28 PM »

Quote from: Steve Youngblood on July 02, 2015, 04:24:26 PM

Quote from: Shadow Mod on July 02, 2015, 03:59:05 PM
Quote from: Steve Youngblood on July 02, 2015, 03:12:47 PM
Quote from: Queen of Ice on July 02, 2015, 03:10:37 PM
pretty sure people saw her criticisms as targeting Mad Max like so many MRA's were doing at the time. It was just a misinterpretation. Either that, or people still saw it as an attack on Mad Max (i.e. "Mad Max: Fury Road is good but it's not good enough") and not being happy with the way things are going in light of (small) progress. That's what I saw from it, anyways. Basically they were saying,"this is a positive thing, so why are you complaining?" they weren't really paying attention to what she was actually saying.

Well, the bigger issue to me is that a lot of that nuance is invariably going to get lost just because of the chosen platform. Twitter is not a good platform for that type of conversation.

It works both ways. It is also just a quick broadcasting platform until you link an article or video expanding your ideas. Getting flummoxed about the lack of nuance when it's also an advertising mechanism is showing your age a bit. I know because I fall into the same patterns of thinking about twitter.

I don't like these new-fangled twitter tweets. Get off my lawn you lousy kids!

I used to think why would someone have an argument on twitter or post glib shit given the character length. But it's not even about the argument, it's about staying relevant. For example if I'm not ready to do a full critique of a thing but that thing is out, I can pretty much make my comment on it, stay relevant with whatever action is going on, then later have the whole video/article/whatever take down that goes blow by blow.

Far as Mad Max goes it's feminist with the idea in mind that women can do shit other than be props that move the action along even though they also were that in the film. It kind of became this feminist thing because the idea that Mad Max wasn't the main protagonist or driving force behind the plot made some other people really angry. It's rather remarkable just how basic the movie was to become "the feminist movie of the summer" or whatever kind of hyperbolic praise it got. I liked it but it's funny when something so basic can be so controversial. And we've come right back around to Anita really. We're not talking great leaps of feminist social critique here but it makes some people very angry none the less. If anything it exposes just how far we still need to go.

studyguy · « **Reply #36189 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:00:26 PM »

What kind of maladjusted, reclusive neckbeard considers Mad Max feminist propaganda?

thisismyusername · « **Reply #36190 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:01:22 PM »

Quote from: WRATH VICE™ on July 02, 2015, 01:45:22 PM

Ummm Uncharted was definitely going for a realistic look. The whole "cartoony" look is what you saw due to limited capabilities compared to now. We all know what people thought of the graphics then and how Naughty Dog intended it to be.

That doesn't look like a realistic look despite them making more "realistic" animations. Limited, sure. But let's throw their last effort on PS3 out:

That looks more "realistic" to me than Uncharted attempted to be.

Quote from: Your Stalker on July 02, 2015, 01:48:40 PM

why'd he post a pc screenshot tho

Because that's what the target for PS3 should be. Late PS3 graphics aren't going to suddenly kill the PS4 if people want to target 1080p/60FPS.

Shadow Mod · « **Reply #36191 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:02:04 PM »

Quote from: studyguy on July 02, 2015, 05:00:26 PM

What kind of maladjusted, reclusive neckbeard considers Mad Max feminist propaganda?

Welcome to the internet.

studyguy · « **Reply #36192 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:08:17 PM »

I always thought Uncharted was supposed to have a 'not quite 1:1 realistic' look due to it fucking being Naughty Dog.
I mean it's not fucking TF2 but I always thought it was meant to be subtlety stylized.

Supermanisdead · « **Reply #36193 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:26:31 PM »

Quote from: Queen of Ice on July 02, 2015, 02:54:18 PM

Quote from: Supermanisdead on July 02, 2015, 02:51:18 PM
I'm still emotionally ravaged from Suikoden 2. I need time to recover before I play 3. Please understand.

Oh right, you played 2 recently. What'd you think?

my favourite game ever next to earthbound

Himu · « **Reply #36194 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:29:58 PM »

Quote from: Supermanisdead on July 02, 2015, 05:26:31 PM

Quote from: Queen of Ice on July 02, 2015, 02:54:18 PM
Quote from: Supermanisdead on July 02, 2015, 02:51:18 PM
I'm still emotionally ravaged from Suikoden 2. I need time to recover before I play 3. Please understand.

Oh right, you played 2 recently. What'd you think?

my favourite game ever next to earthbound

It's amaze. 3 takes some of its ideas and knocks it out of the park in a lot of areas. I hope you enjoy it. Look forward V, which is has a huge love boner for II. Skip IV, it's worthless. You did play 1, eh?

Shadow Mod · « **Reply #36195 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:35:44 PM »

Quote from: Dufus on July 02, 2015, 07:19:36 AM

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170657956&postcount=108

Jesus.

Despite never having gotten any action I am at least thankful I'm not a pitiful self-loathing sexually jealous virgin like above.

If you want some more amusement just search what he has to say about women in the first place.

Purrp Skirrp · « **Reply #36196 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:37:49 PM »

Quote from: FStop7 on July 02, 2015, 04:38:40 PM

Quote from: Dufus on July 02, 2015, 07:19:36 AM
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170657956&postcount=108

Jesus.

CRAWWWLING IN MY SKIIINN

Mr. Nobody · « **Reply #36197 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:39:14 PM »

Quote from: Swishercrat on July 02, 2015, 05:37:49 PM

Quote from: FStop7 on July 02, 2015, 04:38:40 PM
Quote from: Dufus on July 02, 2015, 07:19:36 AM
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170657956&postcount=108

Jesus.

CRAWWWLING IN MY SKIIINN

(Image removed from quote.)

zepblackstar · « **Reply #36198 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:47:42 PM »

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170715977&postcount=31

Shadow Mod · « **Reply #36199 on:** July 02, 2015, 05:55:59 PM »

Gems can found everywhere.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=83825255&postcount=134

FStop7 · « **Reply #36200 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:01:19 PM »

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170716706&postcount=206

ya don't say

Shadow Mod · « **Reply #36201 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:03:07 PM »

Quote from: FStop7 on July 02, 2015, 06:01:19 PM

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170716706&postcount=206

ya don't say

So much confirmation bias of what you expect of anime avatars over there.

brawndolicious · « **Reply #36202 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:03:58 PM »

Quote from: studyguy on July 02, 2015, 05:00:26 PM

What kind of maladjusted, reclusive neckbeard considers Mad Max feminist propaganda?

I guess the same that want to rally for ethics in journalism. I didn't know about GG or any of that red pill reddit stuff until I got back in touch with an old high school buddy. Then he ranted about how GG is this horrible thing and that the gaming journalism industry is corrupted. Since he argued it with me, I actually looked it up and brought down all his arguments that he read out loud to me from reddit and 4chan. Eventually hw realized that Zoe Quinn only fucked other dudes who weren't even reviewing her games and that Anita Sarkeesian probably didn't call a bomb threat on her own speech at a university. He realized that maybe there's not a lot to the accusations but that honesty in gaming journalism is still a big issue because he is a big fan of watching playthroughs of JRPGs on YouTube.

If you're wondering what type of person is super into that MRA stuff, my friend had a ton of problems including spending a lot of his unemployed time on a hentai collaboration project on 4chan and having no desire to date or be financially independent. We're not friends any more but knowing a GG/MRA person in real life, I think I'm more scared of them than Anita.

Purrp Skirrp · « **Reply #36203 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:15:08 PM »

Quote from: studyguy on July 02, 2015, 05:00:26 PM

What kind of maladjusted, reclusive neckbeard considers Mad Max feminist propaganda?

zepblackstar · « **Reply #36204 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:19:04 PM »

well..

Quote

In fact, Mad Max director George Miller enlisted the help of activist, feminist icon, and Vagina Monologues author Eve Ensler in order to ensure that Fury Road wasn’t just another story about helpless female victims; it’s a story about empowered survivors.

and some of the more militant feminists online have gone nuts over it.

mormapope · « **Reply #36205 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:20:51 PM »

Anita's sentiment is nice but her points and examples were always weak and have gotten weaker as time goes on. Gamers Gate people/MRA dudes are generally socially distinguished mentally-challenged, along with having priorities that not many people care about.

Videogame journalism? What the fuck do people want regarding that? Developmental diaries and notes? Programming techniques and tips? Videogame development is a grueling, boring process for the majority of outsiders.

Kara · « **Reply #36206 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:23:50 PM »

Quote from: Swishercrat on July 02, 2015, 06:15:08 PM

Quote from: studyguy on July 02, 2015, 05:00:26 PM
What kind of maladjusted, reclusive neckbeard considers Mad Max feminist propaganda?

(Image removed from quote.)

Cargo shorts? Why you gotta do jake dirty like that?

Purrp Skirrp · « **Reply #36207 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:32:43 PM »

You wear cargos?

I admit their utility is unmatched in the pants game

Stoney Mason · « **Reply #36208 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:32:46 PM »

There are lots of good points to be made about feminism, and racial representation issues through a pop culture filter. Whether its about videogames or movies or comic books, whatever imo. GAF or the bore probably aren't the greatest places to do it.

That being everything said isn't necessarily some pearl drop of wisdom or even contextually appropriate to the example. That is my problem with Sarkesian and basically any cultural critic who doesn't do a very good job at it. It's not just her. Or this issue. People miss the mark on this kind of stuff all the time on lots of subject. Not because their intentions aren't good.But because the things they are saying aren't especially trenchant or wise or incisive.

Of course its probably better to focus on the argument versus the person but let's be honest. In modern society the discussion is almost always about the person and very little about the argument. Which just shows because of how the thread was locked. If it had been about any other typical stupid gaf discussion, it wouldn't have been and it would have just petered out. But because its about her and loosely that topic, its a lightning rod. That's the thing I notice most I guess.

Shadow Mod · « **Reply #36209 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:36:59 PM »

It's the internet. There isn't a good place to do it. You kind of just have to deal with all the raging.

Van Cruncheon · « **Reply #36210 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:39:24 PM »

Quote from: Shadow Mod on July 02, 2015, 06:36:59 PM

It's the internet. There isn't a good place to do it. You kind of just have to deal with all the raping.

ftfy

mormapope · « **Reply #36211 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:40:54 PM »

Also, when it comes to Mad Max, the most feminist aspect of those women characters were how they have character . When it comes to tropes and women characters, there are usually two main ones, damsel and badass chick who does stylish cartwheels while dual wielding uzis.

While that latter hasn't been overdone like the former, its a boring trope nonetheless. So when women are written as fully realized characters in a action movie, that deserves some props. In the end though Mad Max was a smart and clean action movie, nothing more, nothing less.

Shadow Mod · « **Reply #36212 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:44:30 PM »

The whole thing with harassment is that it doesn't matter what the subject is, feminism is just automatically contentious but you could find some nondescript place like a model car forum and there's going to be a group of people who actively hate on women because that's what they do. It's not really dependent on the subject matter at hand, it's an attitude towards a group of people in general. Feminism is just an easy way to light the fire.

Van Cruncheon · « **Reply #36213 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:47:58 PM »

i was at diversity training on tuesday and it was fucksock depressing at how few men raised their hands when asked if they considered themselves "feminist". when the trainer asked a couple dudes (and a gal) why they didn't consider themselves feminists, the stock answer made me nearly blow a gasket it was so predictable "wellllll, i don't think women are BETTER than men"

these are college educated people in high positions, folks. i wound up asking why they thought it was the feminists' job account to for these brainiacs' bizarre definition despite a wealth of college 101 material on the subject and all i got was "lolololol dunno"

Kara · « **Reply #36214 on:** July 02, 2015, 06:57:58 PM »

Quote from: Swishercrat on July 02, 2015, 06:32:43 PM

You wear cargos?

I admit their utility is unmatched in the pants game

I don't but jake does.

mormapope · « **Reply #36215 on:** July 02, 2015, 07:04:33 PM »

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170711747&postcount=1

Quote

How to get a Redbull code for Destiny's Exclusive Mission.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170713334&postcount=22

Quote

am I wrong in thinking that you are stealing codes from people that are paying for real cans? (like myself)

if so? fuck you guys how is this thread even allowed around here?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170714504&postcount=46

Quote

I bought 18 cans of this shit so I could send codes out to international DGAF members who couldn't get them otherwise. Saved the last one for myself and tried to use it today, figured I'd use the XP bonus to level my alt.

Already been used.

Go fuck yourself.

Edit: go fuck yourself whoever was in charge of putting this promotion together. can't get too mad at people who took advantage especially because i'm sure many didn't realize what this actually was.

Get mad at people getting something for free brehs.

Shadow Mod · « **Reply #36216 on:** July 02, 2015, 07:12:30 PM »

Be mad about some energy drink promotion they probably threw together in a day not really thinking about how nerds would exploit it brehs.

mormapope · « **Reply #36217 on:** July 02, 2015, 07:18:13 PM »

How fucked must someone's life be where they become spiteful of people getting a quest for free, while they spent $2.00+ for a can of redbull to obtain that quest due to Destiny addiction?

The answer?

spoiler (click to show/hide)

[close]

Shadow Mod · « **Reply #36218 on:** July 02, 2015, 07:45:04 PM »

Game development has to be some of the worst shit. If I had to factor cheap entitled gamers into all of my decision making I'd just go home with less and less of a soul every day.

OnlyRegret · « **Reply #36219 on:** July 02, 2015, 07:50:11 PM »

Quote from: suppadoopa on July 02, 2015, 04:22:28 PM

Quote from: Take My Breh Away on July 02, 2015, 08:17:22 AM

Remember that tweet we kept hearing about before the console launches

(Image removed from quote.)

awh
(Image removed from quote.)

tell me more

BrokenVerses · « **Reply #36220 on:** July 02, 2015, 08:09:16 PM »

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1074377

archie4208 · « **Reply #36221 on:** July 02, 2015, 08:25:14 PM »

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1074395

Sony stans assemble.

suppadoopa · « **Reply #36222 on:** July 02, 2015, 08:31:21 PM »

Quote from: archie4208 on July 02, 2015, 08:25:14 PM

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1074395

Sony stans assemble.

that guy really listed out FPS for PS1 era RPG

jakefromstatefarm · « **Reply #36223 on:** July 02, 2015, 08:36:56 PM »

Quote from: Vularai on July 02, 2015, 06:23:50 PM

Cargo shorts? Why you gotta do jake dirty like that?

you live in fucking California. do NOT tell me you haven't seen a million aimless youths in calf-length Nike socks and vans with a Dodgers lanyard hanging out of one of the 6 pockets in their khaki cargo shorts

BrokenVerses · « **Reply #36224 on:** July 02, 2015, 08:43:34 PM »

Quote from: archie4208 on July 02, 2015, 08:25:14 PM

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1074395

Sony stans assemble.

That guy's list is just so...boring. How safe can you get.

suppadoopa · « **Reply #36225 on:** July 02, 2015, 08:55:17 PM »

I still haven't played the last of us

am i really missing out?

Mr. Nobody · « **Reply #36226 on:** July 02, 2015, 09:05:22 PM »

Quote from: suppadoopa on July 02, 2015, 08:55:17 PM

I still haven't played the last of us

am i really missing out?

Not really. It's a good one and done playthrough but nothing groundbreaking.

Phoenix Dark · « **Reply #36227 on:** July 02, 2015, 09:08:59 PM »

Quote from: suppadoopa on July 02, 2015, 04:22:28 PM

Quote from: Take My Breh Away on July 02, 2015, 08:17:22 AM

Remember that tweet we kept hearing about before the console launches

(Image removed from quote.)

awh
(Image removed from quote.)

OnlyRegret · « **Reply #36228 on:** July 02, 2015, 09:20:46 PM »

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=170588890&postcount=188

spoiler (click to show/hide)

RIP

[close]

archie4208 · « **Reply #36229 on:** July 02, 2015, 09:38:15 PM »

Quote from: suppadoopa on July 02, 2015, 08:55:17 PM

I still haven't played the last of us

am i really missing out?

Play RE4 again.

ToxicAdam · « **Reply #36230 on:** July 02, 2015, 10:13:15 PM »

Anyone know if there was some kind of internet drama with /r/gaming?

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/

archie4208 · « **Reply #36231 on:** July 02, 2015, 10:19:12 PM »

Quote from: ToxicAdam on July 02, 2015, 10:13:15 PM

Anyone know if there was some kind of internet drama with /r/gaming?

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/

https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3bxduw/why_was_riama_along_with_a_number_of_other_large/

Olivia Wilde Homo · « **Reply #36232 on:** July 02, 2015, 10:57:14 PM »

Quote from: nachobro on July 02, 2015, 01:05:31 PM

Why not just ignore all parties involved? Morans, the lot of them.

This is my policy regarding any type of internet-centric drama, regardless of political stripe.

bluemax · « **Reply #36233 on:** July 02, 2015, 11:02:04 PM »

Quote from: am nintenho on July 02, 2015, 06:03:58 PM

Quote from: studyguy on July 02, 2015, 05:00:26 PM
What kind of maladjusted, reclusive neckbeard considers Mad Max feminist propaganda?
I guess the same that want to rally for ethics in journalism. I didn't know about GG or any of that red pill reddit stuff until I got back in touch with an old high school buddy. Then he ranted about how GG is this horrible thing and that the gaming journalism industry is corrupted. Since he argued it with me, I actually looked it up and brought down all his arguments that he read out loud to me from reddit and 4chan. Eventually hw realized that Zoe Quinn only fucked other dudes who weren't even reviewing her games and that Anita Sarkeesian probably didn't call a bomb threat on her own speech at a university. He realized that maybe there's not a lot to the accusations but that honesty in gaming journalism is still a big issue because he is a big fan of watching playthroughs of JRPGs on YouTube.

If you're wondering what type of person is super into that MRA stuff, my friend had a ton of problems including spending a lot of his unemployed time on a hentai collaboration project on 4chan and having no desire to date or be financially independent. We're not friends any more but knowing a GG/MRA person in real life, I think I'm more scared of them than Anita.

I know a GG in real life, GG was a large part of why I stopped hanging out with him. The other was that I finally realized the reason he's into shit like conspiracies, red pill and GG is because he's a narcissist with no ability to feel empathy for other people. I thought he was just kind of a dick at first but no, he's just incapable of thinking about anyone but himself.

He's also a heavy pot smoker, ran his own failed Indie game company, dated heavily while unemployed for a year, is in his late 30s and has been unemployed multiple times, rents a room in a house from some crazy old people because he'd rather buy giant monitors than save his money and get his own apartment.

Quote from: suppadoopa on July 02, 2015, 08:55:17 PM

I still haven't played the last of us

am i really missing out?

No, its a slower, more boring, more scripted Uncharted with a crafting system tacked on.

king of the internet · « **Reply #36234 on:** July 02, 2015, 11:35:10 PM »

The Last of Us was alright. Best bum fights since the Condemned series.

zomgee · « **Reply #36235 on:** July 02, 2015, 11:57:31 PM »

Quote from: recursivelyenumerable on July 02, 2015, 02:43:02 PM

anime characters aren't supposed to be smart, they're supposed to do what the plot tells them to do.

Unless it's a shoot anime.

Who can forget The Neo Tokyo Screw Job?

Mr Gilhaney · « **Reply #36236 on:** July 03, 2015, 12:05:18 AM »

Quote from: suppadoopa on July 02, 2015, 08:55:17 PM

I still haven't played the last of us

am i really missing out?

You are. Maybe not as much as GAF tells you, but play it sometime, it's a really good game.

Himu · « **Reply #36237 on:** July 03, 2015, 02:06:36 AM »

I'm expecting someone to make a real reddit rival within the year. The ship is sinkkkkking

Got me all

ZephyrFate · « **Reply #36238 on:** July 03, 2015, 02:13:16 AM »

It's got me all:

Himu · « **Reply #36239 on:** July 03, 2015, 02:21:17 AM »

CAN YOU FEEL IT??!?!

RIP REDDIT

News:

Author Topic: 1,000+ Pages of NeoGAF: The Story of Wasted Lives and Hardcore Salt (Read 5966421 times)